steve1

It's been my experience that schoolboard members are often trouble makers in the community. They aren't all like that, but it seems like that is often the case. What qualifications are there to be a school board member? It seems little to none. Where else can unqualified people run a corporation? No wonder this school is having trouble with stupid decisions. I hate to be so damn negative, but many school administrators seem to be idiots too. Tell me when it's time to shut up....I could go on and on.....

reply] Not really. The .38 spl is a leftover from the blackpowder days (actually a descendant of a leftover). Powder was a lot bulkier back then, and cases had to be bigger. Check out loading data for both (performance data too) and you'll see that the 9 and 38 are pretty similar. ................................................................. Well, I went home last night with every intention of proving Wolfriverjoe wrong. I dug out my trusty reloading book. For whatever reason I have never compared the ballistics of a 9mm to a 38 special. Just as he said the velocity of a 9mm is almost identical to a 38 special. Did I ever put my foot in my mouth. Just when I thought I knew it all....I find out I don't know much about pistols. All these years I'd look at that long case of a 38 special or 357, and think it must have that much powder behind the bullet. I'd hold a 38 special case up next to a 9mm, and think....Hmmm....longer case...more power! As Wolfriverjoe stated that is completely false. When you look at most rifle cases that is true. The case is mostly full of powder. If there was too much extra room the primer can ignite too much powder, at once, causing enough pressure to even blow up a rifle. Apparently that is not the case with pistol loads. There has got to be a lot of extra room in a 38 special case. A 9mm and 38 special often use identical powder charges. All I can figure is that pistol powder is so fast burning, that a little extra room doesn't matter. Maybe someone can set me straight on all this, because I don't know a whole lot about pistol reloading. And then there is the 357. It is even longer than the 38 special. I imagine the only reason they made it longer was so you didn't fire 357 loads in a 38 special. So, there must be a lot of extra room in that cartridge too. At least with most pistol powders that would be the case. I've got a can of Blue Dot somewhere. I meant to get it out last night and pour out some charges in these three cases, to see how much it would fill up those cases. Maybe someone who does a lot of pistol reloading can comment on all this. I have some dies for 38 special and 357, but have never used them. About the only pistol reloading I've done is for the 9 mm and that was several years ago.... Thanks, Wolfriverjoe for bringing me up to speed on the 38 special. That's what I like about these forums....I'm always learning something new.

I doubt if everyone is assuming that they plan to blow the hell out of everyone who breaks in. I too thinks it should be a last resort, to use a firearm. But if someone won't stop, I have every intention of pulling the trigger on them. A person doesn't have to be a victim. I think you may be the one who has black and white thinking on this....

Not really. The .38 spl is a leftover from the blackpowder days (actually a descendant of a leftover). Powder was a lot bulkier back then, and cases had to be bigger. Check out loading data for both (performance data too) and you'll see that the 9 and 38 are pretty similar. ................................................................... Thanks for the info. on this. I haven't really checked the ballistics out very closely...and that explains my stupid thoughts on this. I assumed that a larger case meant greater velocity. Usually that is the case when looking at a rifle cartridge. To tell you the truth I know much more about rifles than I do pistols. If you compare a 308 to a 30/06 to a 300 magnum, there is room for more powder resulting in faster velocity, in the larger cases. With primitive powders there probably was a need for a larger case.....So, I stand corrected on this....Are their any other cartridges that this applies to. Does the 357 have a longer case than needed? It is much longer than a 38 special.....This has my curiosity going.....

...................................................................... Do you have another pair of rose glasses that I can wear too? I'll bet everyone who breaks into your house in the middle of the night is really a nice guy who's just had a little too much to drink or maybe he just needs some stuff.....

Generational trauma is an interesting thing to study. It can be tracked back over generations. I look at my Dad and wonder why he was such an angry, dysfunctional, alcoholic parent. But then again, I realize it would have been difficult for him not to be like that. When he was a kid his Mom died when he was young. He was then farmed out to several other families who really didn't want him. That hurt never really left him. He was a terrible parent who was drunk out of his mind every day. It had a huge affect on my brothers and I. I've got two brothers and one step brother. Guess what, they all became alcoholics. One of my younger brothers has already drank himself to death. There was no way to stop him. Luckily none of them married and they can't pass much down to anyone else. I truly believe there is more to alcoholism than genetics. My Dad had one brother. I lost track of him and his family over the years. I remember that family as being fairly normal. My two cousins seemed like normal, healthy kids when they were young. Well I got the news the other day that they are all dead. My uncle died of a heart attack. His wife drank herself to death. Their son had alcohol problems and he killed himself. Their daughter drank herself to death this past Spring. I wonder how much was passed on down to their kids. This is depressing stuff. Nothing is easy about breaking out of this generational cycle of dysfunction.... People tend to marry someone who is mentally similiar to themselves. Ever hear of a woman who marries the same type of no good, over and over again. Many times he was just like her father. Usually someone marries someone similiar to one of their own parents. So, this makes it even more likely that dysfunction will be passed on to their kids. This is a sad thing to look at, if it is going on in your own family.... My wife is similiar to myself. We both grew up in abusive alcoholic families. We probably both suffer from PTSD. We have two daughters. We are all trying hard to break out of this. I know my own kids are carrying around garbage from the past. We've talked about this many times with them. Both of my daughters have depression problems at times. I can only hope for a brighter future.....

I bought both my daughters 38's. Both those pistols are shorter barreled revolvers. They have been shooting and hunting since they were little. So, I feel safe with them owning and shooting these. One of those pistols is pretty accurate. The other has fixed sights. It groups a little to one side and the groups are quite large, no matter how steady you hold it. I might buy her a different one. I've never owned a short barreled pistol. I was impressed with the accuracy of the one and not the other. I don't think I'll buy another pistol with fixed sights... Both these pistols were made in South America. They look like Smith and Wesson. The inaccurate one is a Taurus. I bought a Taurus 22 long rifle in a little longer barrel, and it is very accurate. I really like it. I'm not sure what is wrong with this 38. You can tell a lot about a cartridge by looking at the round itself. There is a lot of powder behind a 38 bullet. A lot more than my little 9mm....

The sad thing about all of this is that it is generational. I've heard many people call it generational trauma. Kids grow up a lot like their own parents. Many parents don't have a clue how to be a quality mother or father. They parent usually just like their parents did. The cycle goes on and on, until someone decides they have had enough. Some times it takes a generation or two to break the cycle of abuse, neglect, or alcoholism. As hard as I've tried I still hear my Dad's words coming out of my mouth at times. I look like him, talk like him....hell I even walk like him, but I think I've done a much better job of raising my kids, than he ever did.....

Thanks for sharing this. If I can ask this, what was it about your culture that made you push yourself forward? ..................................................................... Probably a work ethic. Dad may have been a drunk, but he did teach my brothers and I that you had to work hard to achieve anything. In about the 8th grade we moved to a small farm. On a farm everyone works. Life may have been difficult there, but in many respects it was good preparation for life.....

My Dad grew up in the school of "hard knocks". He achieved quite a bit, despite being an alcoholic. He had little respect for those who stayed in school, and he let me know it. So, in other words, I was raised by a drunk who gave little guidance. Mom lived in another state with my brothers. I think my teachers, at school, were my saving grace. Everyone of them was saying, "stay in school! If you want a future, that would be a smart thing to do." So, one day, I told Dad the good news. I wanted to go to college. I had been more or less a juvenile delinquent up until that point. My grades were barely passing in High School. Hell, I had a hard enough time even concentrating in school, with all the B.S. that went on at home. Dear old Dad was truly disappointed with me. He tried to tell me that I wasn't the type of kid who went to college. That I'd never make it. Other days he would come home drunk, and tell me I wasn't worth a shit. Well, all that convinced me that I was never going to be like him. It was a struggle just raising the cash to even go to college. I spent years working in the woods falling timber. And It was a struggle to even do college work. I could barely do Bone-Head math. But the thing was, I wouldn't quit. Today I'm a licensed therapist who works with trouble kids in a tough school. I don't think I would have done any of that if it hadn't been for caring teachers who were good role models. Thanks for listening! This is good therapy for me.....

Thanks for your comments on this. I think a 9 mm is adequate, but a 45 is better for stopping power. A 9mm is probably easier to shoot, with a larger magazine capacity. I've wondered about the M-16 for years, in terms of stopping power. Particularly with full-metal-jacketed bullets. It just doesn't seem to be a very ideal weapon for stopping someone. I watched a show on TV recently where they were firing a 223 into gelatin. The uptake on this was that the 223 was a good round because the bullet often tumbled, blowing a bigger hole. Is that really true? I've heard many veterans complain about it's stopping power. Who knows weapons better than someone who has used that gun in combat.... I read one news story where a policeman was hit through the chest with an a 223 round. It was a full metal jacket bullet. At the hospital they put a big bandaid on the entrance and exit wound, and sent him home..... As far as weapon noise, I think the loudest gun I own is my 9 mm pistol. But then again my 357 isn't any better. I have to have ear phones or plugs to even shoot them. But in a home defense situation, I doubt if the noise would bother anyone. The adrenaline would be pumping and noise wouldn't bother you much. But what do I know? I've never been in that situation. Shooting in a confined area can make things worse. I know one ex-Vietnam tunnel rat who is almost deaf. That was from firing his 12 guage in confined quarters. Thanks for the info. on Grossman. I don't think he did have any combat experience, so his knowledge is probably limited, and parts of his book could be B.S.....

I just finished reading a book by Lt. Colonel Grossman. In his opinion....there have been great improvements in technology, but probably the very best weapon for close range work, is the shotgun with a short barrel. He went on to say that everyone fears military weapons like the M-16, but in actuality the M-16 is more for wounding folks than killing them. He went on to say that anyone can take an old shotgun and saw off the barrel, and end up with a weapong that is much more deadly at close range. He added that may be one reason that the military went from issuing 45's to 9 MM's. The 9MM would blow a smaller hole and be more likely to wound an enemy soldier. The theory being that it takes three people to take care of a wounded soldier, and that would slow the enemy down more than a dead soldier. I'm not sure that I buy all this. With full metal- jacketed-bullets, (like the ones used in combat) it's hard to blow a very big hole. So, how about using soft pts. for home defense. There's been a lot of debate on what's the best pistol. Most people believe that a 9MM is on the small side, even with hollow pts. I've never been very impressed with the killing power of a 22 bullet. I've shot a few deer and antelope with a 22-250. Half of them required another shot. I don't hunt anything much bigger than coyotes with that caliber now. I am a big believer in a short shotgun for home defense.....In my mind it may very well be the best weapon for that.

Most sporting goods stores in Montana have a lot of 12 guage ammo for sale. It might be harder to find slugs or buckshot. I'm having a hard time finding powder. Everyone is hoarding it. I'm having an even harder time finding primers. Everyone is sold out of large rifle primers. I can't find magnum primers anywhere....

In most states it is against the law to shoot a gun right next to a road or to shoot from a vehicle. The Fish and Game have a tricky way of catching people. They set up a mounted deer, with a big set of horns, right next to the road during hunting season. They even have a piece of fish line that moves the deer's tail. One vehicle after another will stop, and usually a shot is fired. If that happens they can nab you. I always thought it would be fun to go running out in the field and chop it up with an axe. I figured I could tell them that I like to hunt primitive, and I use an axe.... I knew one guy who actually stalked up on a mounted antelope next to the road. He shot it with an arrow. It looked that real. This guy has a steel plate in his head, so that might explain a lot. But the Fish and Game almost gave him a ticket because he shot his bow about ten minutes after legal shooting hours.... I knew another lady who saw a nice buck next to the road. She didn't shoot because she figured this must be another Fish and Game decoy. About then the deer ran off...

I didn't know Frenchy very well. He was a friend of Paul Juel's. I spent a few days around Frenchy when he came to our boogie in Montana. Paul told me a lot of stories about him. I think Frenchy farmed on his own place in Montana for a while. He used to help Paul farm at times too. I never saw anyone jump with Frenchy. At our boogie he always went out alone. He was in great shape for an old guy. He seemed a little contankerous when you woke him up too early in the mornings. Someone said that Frenchy was a paratrooper in WWII. Is that true? At any rate, I hope you're on your way to the big drop zone in the sky, Frenchy!

. Yes, it's quite clear that there is absolutely no link at all between TV/computer violence and violence in the real world. Sorry, Steve, your vision is false. The majority of violence continues to be felons killing felons. ........................................................................ Some people say there is no link between cancer and cigarette smoking. All there are is correlational studies. To really prove something to be a fact a controlled double blind experiment is needed. Noone is going to do that when people could die. It is unethical. But, there comes a point when we must accept that cigarettes do cause cancer. There are well over 200 correlational studies to document that there is a link between TV/computer game violence and violence in young people. The American Psychological Association's commission on violence and youth concluded in 1993 that there is absolutely no doubt that higher levels of viewing violence on television correlates with increased acceptance of aggressive attitudes and increased aggressive behavior. There are many causes of violence in America. I certainly feel that violence on TV and video games are something that should not be ignored. I'm not so simple minded to think these are the only causes. The breakdown of nuclear families is another huge factor. I guess we could go on and on trying to figure all this out. And maybe that's not a bad thing.....

Violence in TV and Video Games has become progressively more violent over the years. Now a new age of video game is starting where a person can wear a helmet. When you turn your head you see new scenes. All this makes things more realistic. What direction are we headed with all this. I think it is a crime to expose kids to this kind of garbage. I have no doubt this has an affect on violence in America. But part of my concern is selfish. I grew up with guns. I own a bunch of them. I use them for hunting and recreation with my family. How long is it going to be before we lose that freedom in America. If violent crime keeps increasing, I think it is only a matter of time before we lose it. I think it's about time America starts looking at it's root causes of violence, and then do something about it....

reply] You can believe whatever you want, but I don't need to convince you against falsehoods you hold without any evidence to support them. Only in a stupid world does "common sense" outweigh actual evidence. I'll put it differently. The 'violent' movies and TV in America don't come remotely close to the sort of movies that John Woo was making when he was still in Hong Kong. See the closing sequence of A Better Tomorrow (I or II) for an example. Yet HK has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. Wolf 3D came in 1992 and Doom a year later. This followed the Mortal Combat video games in the mid 80s. After came the hyper realistic team combat games. We're getting pretty close to 30 years of these, but are we seeing a surge in violence in America? No. ........................................................................ That is interesting that Hong Kong has one of the lowest homicide rates in the World despite their access too violent videos. But maybe other factors are at work there. Maybe people there have to work much of the day, instead of spending the entire day playing violent video games and watching violent T.V. Perhaps the oppressive government they have has something to do with this. What happens when you get in big trouble in China? One solution is to cane the shit out of you. Another is to take the bad guy out back, shoot him in the head, and then harvest his organs. That could stop a lot of people from thinking of using violence. Hasn't China had advances in medical treatment over the years. Again, that is a good explanation for the lower homicide rates....

Much of the information I'm giving comes from the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Grossman. I'm referring to a chart showing the relationship between aggravated assault, murder, and imprisonment on page 300 of his book. I'll be honest on this. I'm not sure exactly where he drew all this data from. If this isn't accurate, I'd like to know. Someone wrote in earlier saying that some of his facts and figures could be off at times. I am interested in knowing the truth on this, so correct me if these numbers don't match up with yours.....

No, it's not that it may be true. It's absolutely true. If you want to reject actual facts, you need to actually supply new ones, not a lot of conjecture and unlisted statistics. Better medicine cuts death rate 67%. Proof? Timeline? 'Aggravated assault' (an inconsistently measured event) is up 7X since 1957? Why pick that year? Violence in movies didn't uptick till the late 70s, and more realistic computer violence didn't come till the early 90s. You've already been told that murder picked up in the 60s and 70s (coinciding with the rise of the drug trade), so how much did AA increase in the first 20 years? How much of the medical advances came in the past 15 years as computer game violence supposedly became a factor? Honestly, I doubt the improvement was that marked in this time frame. In the mid 80s, there was lots of BS research about the effects of pornography. Yet 2 decades of internet porn and we're all still standing. Again, where's the beef to these claims? The most significant factor in the level of violent crime in America has been the size of the young male population. When there is a bulge in that demographic, it trends up. When it passes, it retreats back. ..................................................................... I'm sorry I used the word may in reference to the increase in murder rate over the years. You are right, there has not been a huge increase in the murder rate. Like I said progress in medical technology has kept the murder rate much lower than it would be, if we had the same technology as back in the fifties or sixties. Helicopter medevacs, 911 operators, para-medicas, and trauma centers etc. are some of the innovations that have kept this rate that low. It is estimated that the murder rate would be three times higher if we hadn't had those improvements. So, graphing this or using statics over the years to say that the murder rate has remained the same is misleading..... I could have looked at any year after 1957. Statistics show the same thing. There has been a huge increase every year since, in aggravated assault and imprisonment. We are presently building prisons faster than we are schools. So, tell me again we don't have a violence problem in America.....

Assasins were once trained to kill by the U.S. Government, using classical conditioning and social learning methodology. Films were used depicting violence and death. They became more and more guesome and horrific as training progressed. In psychological terms this is called systematic desensitization. People were shown being killed and injured in various ways. The purpose of all this was to train people to over come their resistance to killing. And it worked well! Kids do the same thing in America. As they get older they are allowed to watchmore and more violent video games and TV shows. The video games kids watch may be even more realistic than training by soldiers and police. I was trained to kill by the U.S. Army back in the early 70's. We fired at targets shaped liked a human torso. If you made a hit the silhouette went down. As I said earlier, military troops did a very good job at killing the enemy in Vietnam, largely due to realism in training. But to tell you the truth, that training is nothing compared to the realism in todays violent video games. You shoot someone on a video game, and there is blood and guts, maybe even a scream or two. As I said earlier many kids can not even sleep at night after playing one of these damn games. And all this is not military training. It's called entertainment for our kids. I work as a counselor. When I talk to troubled kids I am amazed at all the violent thinking that is going on. When I ask them what they like to do, in almost every case, the reply is watching video games. There is a ton more I could write on this subject, but I'd better quit for now....

I don't need to prove a negative - the burden is on you to support your unfounded claim. I only need to observe that despite the arrival of violent gaming, that there has been no increase in violence, and rather the opposite. The only way for these games to still have a great effect is for some other factor to remove just as much violence at the same time. Pretty far fetched. So far you still got 'common sense' and no facts to support your belief. Might as well be religion. ....................................................................... It was stated earlier that the murder rate has not risen appreciably since way back when. This may be true, but those statistics leave out a lot. The reason the murder rate has not risen is because of technological advances in medicine especially trauma and emergency care. If not for that the murder rate would probably be triple what it is now. Perhaps a better statistic to look at would be the rate of aggravated assault. It has risen nearly seven times higher than it was in 1957. Since our society now has an older population than it did in 1957 the amount of violence should be decreasing....but it is instead rising dramatically. America is in denial of it's violence problem. It's time that people woke up. Between 1985 and 1991 the homicide rate for males has increased 154 percent. Homicide is the number two cause of death among males ages 15 to 19. It is the number one cause of death for black males of that age group. As of 1994 there are have been over 200 studies demonstrating the correlation between television and violence. As I said earlier it is difficult to do quality research in this area. One reason is that it is, not ethically correct to put kids in groups and then expose them to violent TV shows and video games and then measure their behavior. If that were possible I believe it would be easy to prove that there is a correlation.....

Welcome back, Mike!

reply] You can believe whatever you want, but I don't need to convince you against falsehoods you hold without any evidence to support them. Only in a stupid world does "common sense" outweigh actual evidence. I'll put it differently. The 'violent' movies and TV in America don't come remotely close to the sort of movies that John Woo was making when he was still in Hong Kong. See the closing sequence of A Better Tomorrow (I or II) for an example. Yet HK has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. Wolf 3D came in 1992 and Doom a year later. This followed the Mortal Combat video games in the mid 80s. After came the hyper realistic team combat games. We're getting pretty close to 30 years of these, but are we seeing a surge in violence in America? No. .................................................................. The problem is that it is difficult to do conclusive research on this. Where is your proof that violent video games have little effect. I think the statistics you give here don't add up to much. Would you let your own kids watch the most violent video games for hours and hours each day. Would you let them watch whatever they want on cable TV, day after day. After all it must not have any effect. The numbers prove this....Right?? And the violence problem in America. Are you saying we don't have a violence problem here. Then why are our prisons bulging at the seams....? And what are kids learning from watching violence day after day on TV and video games. They are learning that violence is fun. That nothing ever bad happens to the good guy. He always wins. Nothing is ever taught about the repercussions to the family when someone is killed, or crippled for life. And worst of all, kids are being dessensitized to violence. It becomes normal. Add up all the violence that one has seen. Add that to someone who is angry as hell because of all the abuse and neglect they have endured as a kid, and you can very easily end up with a killer. And there are numbers to support this too. Look at our prison population and figure out how they were raised. I think it is very evident why they ended up there.....

Given how many of us in the past few decades grew up as latchkey kids, it's clear that it takes more than Doom and parental neglect to turn out a violent person. I agree completely! Following this same train of thought you have to consider how many kids play violent video games and didn't become violent as well. .............................................................. No, it probably takes more than a few violent video games to turn someone into a killer. Most normal people, who have been raised in a decent home, have checks built into themselves that stop them from taking another life. Soldiers in previous wars often times could not even pull the trigger on their weapons. Many fired without any intention of hitting the enemy. In America's Revolutionary War soldiers would line up at can't miss ranges. Volley after volley were fired. Very few soldiers were killed, because normal people have a real difficult time killing the enemy. Even in World War II soldiers often could not shoot at the enemy or in many cases they didn't even fire their weapons in a fire fight. There is documentation and statistics to prove all of this. With more realistic training soldiers became more efficient killers. In Vietnam the effective firing rate of soldiers increased ten fold. The same is true in Iraq. These soldiers ability to kill is due to more realistic training. Video simulation is one method that has proven tremendously effective. Many say this is just like playing a video game back home. My brother sometimes teaches shoot don't shoot scenarios in the Police Academy. A movie is played on the wall of a shooting range. In some situations a bad guy is shown with some kind of weapon. It's just like a video game, but you use a real weapon. It has revolutionized police training. The end result is a soldier or police officer who can fire his weapon in a deadly manner without much thought....