teason

Hey Rob, don't forget volume. If you are teaching a small class, $50 would be about right but if the DZ isn't Tandem heavy and most are doing IADs, $50 is ridiculous. At many small DZs, the lion's share is IAD students and a class of 20-30 students is not abnormal. That would mean that at $50, you'd expect to be paid $1000 - $1500 for a class. How many people can say they make that type of money for half a days work? If that was the case, every Tandem Master I know would quit to become an SSI [;p] At Tandem heavy DZs, I'd say you're right. If you had to drive to the DZ and spend half the day training 3 jumpers, you would certainly need more money per head. Gas to the DZ alone may cost $20. FJC rates can be like apples and oranges DZ to DZ, it depends on the volume. Having taught classes anywhere from 1 to 73 students (yes I said 73) I can tell you that 75% of the class workload is independent of numbers and it would be unfair to make peanuts for a small class but just as unfair to expect thousands for a large one. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Actully, the FJC in the millitary is quite long. Lots of practical training and so on. I believe the FJC in the Canadian Military is 2 weeks. Soldiers learn a variety of PLFs where we really only learn one. Landing on obstacles is also something that tends to be more indepth than when training civies with squares. Special forces use rectangular planforms and usually big ones at that. Last thing you need when landing in unknown terrain at night is a highly loaded elliptical SarTecs in Canada use big Squares as they may have to jump into crash sites on the sides of mountains, at night, in snow storms. I personally prefer to only jump when it's sunny, but that's just me I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Spell checkers can't help when you spell the wrong word correctly or miss words entirely. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Arrrgh! My Tent! My preciuos, precious tent! It cost my $30!oh god! Oh the humanity! Please tell me it's ok! Geez, I'm gone for 3 days and whammo! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Why can't I edit my posts? I'm a terrible speller and It's driving me nuts! Arrrrgh! Anyone else having this problem? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

The ZP Mantas are also more nose high. This can translate into an easier flare for students (we know the students in particular that have a problem) I would recommend the Hybrid Manta. They flar and behave the same as the fully ZP but students have a far easier time gathering up the canopy. The full ZP tends to squirt and the student usually drags half of it back to the hanger. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Heh, that's funny. There's an old saying that if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, you can baffle 'em with bullshit. Nice going on doing an internet search on the word, I liked that. Here's on from a dictionary search. You can find this on dictionary.com con·do·na·tion /ˌkɒndoʊˈneɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-doh-ney-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun the act of condoning[/]; the overlooking or implied forgiving of an offense. But what do I know, I'm facing a firing squad tomorrow on my use of language. By the way, to critcize my use of language and say "there is nor remedy" ... Priceless! I won't bug you anymore, you seem to be getting a bit emotional. Anyway, thanks for the fun banter and bringing this thread back to life, Merry Christmas and a nondenominational celebration to all I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused confused. Are you saying condonation can only happen when there is an exchange of money? If so, maybe you're thinking of some other word or condone doesn't mean what you think it means. Or maybe you mean that you publicly condone things when you have been paid to. But that is not called condonation, it is called endorsement, not condone as you can condone something being quiet. While endorsment does not require monetary exchange, you would be fair to say you would not endorse something without money. At any rate, you comment makes no sense. So, here someone said that you condone their actions, I say that your posts can be constude that way, for example, you advocated the use of materials and images of other businesses is they had not registered the material in question. I think you were confusing registering trademarks and business names with copywrites, but condonation was inferred on the copywrite violation issue and especially with your comments on the court transcript where categorically disregard 12 different points. The disregard of objectionable action is condonation whether or not you think it is objectionable is not relevant. I'm sure skyride would see anything they do as objectionable either. You do know we can look at old posts, right? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

In the absence of phots, if you go to MEC downtown, you may find the Space foam on a backback. It looks like mesh in apperance. Some backpacks double up the foam but I believe that the vector has a single layer of 1/4 inch. I just flew back North for two weeks, I can take pic of sample I have when I can't back to deland but that'll be a while. Try to give UPT a call, I'm sure they have something they can show you. There are a few rigs around Deland with the foam and magnetic covers. p.s Get the magnetic riser covers, they are similar in look to a Racer(personal bias) and they look and function well. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

oooh, wondered when you'd hit the spelling problem I have. It's actually dyslexia. I have to read every line several times to see if I have screwed it up and still screw it up anyway. Large posts are extremely difficult for me. That, by the way, is not a whine but a mere statement of fact. I'm proud that I worked hard to over come a problem that a person like you would redicule me for. Just something I have to deal with. By the way, you actually posted some good thoughts. Too bad you already turned off others with previous ones, could've made for good dialogue. Anyhoo, the gap analysis is best used in the controling function of management to ensure that a given performance is up to snuff. It leads back into the planning function as planning should never present a static solution. This thread was kinda based on so I'm not quite sure what point you are making. Your comment on analysizing other aspects of the DZ is fair. You gave an example of a management science approach. I must have used that approach to know the reality of load profitability. Unfortunately you must see the business as a system. Change one part of the organization and it will affect another. That is what I tried to convey when I talked about how upjumper pricing can affect staffing, image and even jumper retention. Systems expands your perspective and can help you avert danger. As for highering outside talent, I have been struggling with two major hurdles; commitment and work Visas (the Canadian market is far too small). Another problem also comes in the form of obtaining new instructor rating for such staff as they would not have local Governing body ratings. The solutions to these problems are already in motion in the organization and leading functions. There is always more going on than what you see. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Your not doing a god job if you can't figure it out after almost 2000 posts. The inferance "spilling tears" is designed to illicit the image that we, who talk about Skyride injustice, are mere children. An attemp to reduce the significance of our points. If you actually knew anything about the law system, you would know that it is not swift. It is obvious that your main exposure to the law has been 60 minute episodes of Matlock where southern lawer outsmarts the big city folk. (that's condescention for ya, how do you like it? pretty useless isn't it?) Even if they are way off the rails! Well that doesn't even make any sense. Critisizing what you don't know about, being confrontation and attempting to be superior does not lead to corrective action. If you think it does then that is a funny story! Once again, you know not of what you speak. Actions have been taken in the past and actions continue to happen. But hey, if it contradict what you think, I gues it aint valid huh? Oh I love that one, the first part was directed a me

The foam on the back pad is a copy of the North face backpack design. It is two pads, one at each shoulder and a pad at the small of the back. Northface designed it for backpacks so that air can move behind the back. The pads are mesh and fairly light weight. There isn't much extra bulk (unless you are the poor sap binding the back pad) I have similar pads on a container I built for myself (not a Vectore). Didn't make it that much more comfortable and was a bitch to build. Sorry, no pics, theyshould be in Canpara soon. They do have some marketing material with really good shots so expect to see them soon. UPT just has to get their site up and running. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

You are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. point #4 was arrogant and #9 was just plain specious. "If they did it, they must have permission" What's wrong with you. I believe that the only people worth listening to are those who have an opposing view because you can learn from them. All I've learned from your posts is that if you have a weak point of view based on assumptions and poor logic then throw in condescention and you can feel superior. Just because you like to throw in snarky remarks to try and make others feel small does not give your arguement weight. It also makes people not want to listen to you when you do make sense. If you're not sure what you are saying that can be interperated as arrogant, I'll point them out for you in your responses that are sure to come. I was like you in the forums until someone pointed out how it negatively affected my side of the debate. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

I don't think it's quite so strange, old business models of the past put shareholders and profits above all else. New models understand the concept of stakeholders. Look at the behavioural approach of management. The Behavioural approach stresses the importance of people in attaining organizational goals. The Human realtions movement put forth by such individuals as Mary parker Follet and Chester Barnard advocates that management puts the gratification of the workers as a primary concern. Studies into human interaction has also demonstrated the imporance of social relations. The Hawthorne studies, for example, show that social factors are at least as important as environmental ones. The Hawthorne effect illustrates the tendency for workers (in groups) to increase productivity when managemnet pays attention. Anyone say beer and pizza? (just one example) Dropzones are not a place for DZOs to focus on classical approaches. Scientific mangagement works better for goods, not services and bureaucracy is already imposed by national skydiving bodies. Adminisrative approaches are wasted on such small organizations. While I would agree that monetary incentives do nothing for moral, what it does do is create an increase jump activity which inturn enhances the DZ's social componant. Upjumpers are more price sensitive than students. Upjumpers are stakeholders that should be satisfied and not taken for granted or advantage of. The cost of subsidizing upjumper activity is money that is spent securing staff and creating DZ feel. The idea of a business' main responsibility is to make profit died out decades ago. Canada is a more social minded country making a DZs social responsibility toward the Skydiving community much more important. Trying to increase (or realize) profits off of upjumpers would not be good for the DZs image. In a small market, you need to attract the best and brightest. In manitoba, for example, there are only 4 tandem masters for 2 DZs(and who wants to work for some money grubbing DZO?) Now, if you are in biz or some kind of consulant, you will undoubtedly have a different perspective. My father who is an ISO 9000 consultant gives me advice from a different perspective than mine which is good, but not always a perfect fit. As it is my business, I have to constantly expose my self to different perspectives to find the one that works the best. I believe (so far) that the behavioural approach is the most appropriate I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

My god! Are you serious? Do you actually think all DZs have that kind of air power. I honestly am flabbergasted by your comment! It looks like I need to explain a small DZ to you. A cessna 182 is a small single Origionally designed in the mid 50s, it was designed as a four seat commuter. It has a slightly bigger engine than a 172. The standard 182 has an o-470 engine that generates less than 280 horsepower. Most 182 jump ships only go to about 9000-10000 feet. The 182 holds a max of 4 jumpers and takes 25-40 min to get to altitude. freefall is a meger 40 sec. The C182 can cost about $120-$150CDN per hour to run wet depending on how many hours it flys per year and how much wear and tear the aircraft recieves. We are at the high side of that as we jump on weekends 6 months of the year. This has nothing to do with any other cost outside the aircraft operation. Our situation is even worse as we rent the aircraft from a third party and therefore our cost is higher. Even if we did make $4 per slot (we actually lose $2) that money would have to go toward fixed costs like building, gear maintenance (try maintaining 19 AADs), wages, advertising, phones and the list goes on. I'm guessing you've only ever jumped at big DZs and you have no understanding of how a small DZ works. Well, let me put it this way, if all we did was upjumpers and they 1000 loads and we made $4 slot, we would lose about $150,000 per season. Upjumpers do alot of great things for a DZ and are absolutely critical for its success. They are the instructors They lower the operating cost per load (not at my dz but at others) They create an atmosphere that brings students back They are, in short, the soul of the DZ. What there are not is directly profitable. It is comical when I hear upjumpers talking about the importance of their money. That's bullshit. Now at larger DZs, yeah. I'll agree they can contribute more but at small DZs, I would make more money if they didn't jump(not that I want that, I run the loads at a loss so they dojump and I'd lose more if they weren't there.) It take a $2 hit on upjumpers because they are important just for being there, making the DZ happen and showing students what they can become. By the way, contacted a lawyer (that's where I got the info) did stuff about it (been behind the scenes, contributed evidence in a lawsuit etc.) Whining? You want to know what the deal is, I tell you and you call me a whiner? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Well here we see the problem with the size of the thread. You are basing your view point on things that have been addressed in the last 2000 or so posts and it is impossible to take a few days and read them all. I will try to make it concise and not assume that you have any idea of what skyride does. Most DZs do not accept Skyride tickets. That means if someone 10 min. away buy a Skyride ticket, we just lost a sale. It's not as simple as you believe. When Skyride stole our website and cloned it, people even thought they were booking with us as the sites were identical, even had me as their Chief instructor. When the got the ticket, they were then directed to other DZs. Skyride skims the tandem market by loading the internet up with bogus skydiving website. as of 2 years ago there were some 900+ skyride sites. You can't do a search for skydiving without hitting a fake skydiving site. They used to pretend they were us. I'd call that unfair. The problem with a law suit is this; we would have to fly from canada to Alanta to launch the suit. The suit would be against the corporation as it gives the owners limited liability. The Corp that is responsible has little to no assets and therefore there is no money to get out of them. The end result is that we would spend thousands and not only not recieve a cent but it would take years and years before the rebound in profits payed for the expense of the law suit. And that doesn't factor personal time and stress. It's a situation where your only options are to lose or lose. Jump tickets for fun jumpers rarely go down because they are sold at cost. At my DZ I make more of a fun jumper if he buys a coke. That's like saying if no one buys food at a resturant, they appreciate the loiterers more. *****This is important***** DZs pay for staff, maintenance, rent and so on through student sales. If there are no student sale and only upjumpers, they will have to pay rent and so on through upjumpers. They cannot do it if you are paying cost for your slot! The idea that Skyride is "Competition" would be valid if there was a level playing field. Skyride skewed the playing field by flooding the internet with misleading sites, Stealing websites of real DZs in the area and just changing the phone number, Stealing phone numbers of DZs while the DZ was dealing with a tradegy, not being forthright and honest with students and so on. DZO do need to band together. We do need to refuse Skyride on mass but if most DZs refuse, it will benifit the few that accept and that money is hard to give up. There is enough people in skydiving allowing this to happen. All we can do is make people aware of what is going on then maybe the playing field can be level again. As it is, to create true competition again, the DZOs would have to be as deceptive as Skyride and I, for one don't want to sink there. At my DZ, I try to do a hot tub party and pig roast every couple of months. When we have a slow month, I can't afford it. I have also been known to buy beer and pizza when we have busy days, a kind of thank you for everyone. I don't think this rare on small DZs. Shit, I've never heard of such a thing. Has anyone everclaimed that? Sounds rediculous. Stories? I've been involved in this Skyride thing for a while and I've never heard any of that. Skyride pisses people off way to much for that to ever happen. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Skyride flows the "Demand" through their bogus sites. That skims profit out of DZs hands and into the hands of Skyride. They do not increase participation through advertising, the skim from internet search that are already happening and they do it by copying websites and misrepresenting them as established DZs in the students area. That is what skyride does, profits by misrepresenting themselves to Tandem students. The effect of Skyride is that 1.) It has left Tandem students with a bad taste in their mouths. Spending more on a tandem than they had to, being lied to and having them commute unreasonable distances is not good for Skydiving's image. In the long run it will have an adverse effect on participation. 2.) By cutting into DZ profits, the cost of jump tickets has to increase. That, my freind, affects you (which is important to you). It also takes away from advertising dollars the DZ can spend getting more participation at the DZ. It takes money away from special events like hot tub parties on the DZ or gambling on bringing in a larger plane for a boogie (if the DZO can't risk the money, he/she won't do it) And we all like to jump from big planes. With DZOs making less, they can't afford to pay instructors a decent wage. (which will affect you if you become an instructor) 3.) By directing local Tandem students to other DZs, it reduces jump volume so 182 DZs can't justify trading up to a 206 or turbine. Once again, we all like to jump from big planes. Lower volume also increase the aircraft's "cost per hour" so expect higher rates. (you probably won't care about that one being in Florida where there are lots of big planes but other jumpers suffer.) You're fooling yourself if you think this is a DZ owner issue. Sooner or later it has a trickle down effect and will sting you to. Skyride: 1.) dupes students 2.) steals copyrighted pictures for video folk and Webmasters 3.) skims work for local DZs and instructors 4.) skims profit from small business 5.) hampers DZ growth 6.) increases jump costs at smaller DZs 7.) puts the Skydiving community in a negative light Even if you don't care about students, vidiots, webmasters, instructors, small business owners, and the size of DZs you don't jump at, they may still affect your wallet and they make us all look bad. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Ah Diablo pilot, another inciteful post... Anyway, I let my Tandem Master take friends for cheap and relatives for the cost of the 2 slots and a repack. Many DZs will also have a visiting TM policy where if you have your own Tandem gear, they will charge 2 slots and a paperwork fee (can be as low as $10) It's good for when you go on vacation with a non-experienced jumper spouse

PM'd I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Being dumb as a stick helps too. I've been loaded with lead and done high speed static line jumps at 14000' with 350 square foot accuracy canopies. Tomorrow, I'm loading up with enough lead to simulate a 300 lbs jumper and see how a canopy opens. That'll be right after I eat my big bag of dumb Actually, joking side, it's kinda fun. You get to collect data, try new designs of parachutes and container and learn butloads about what makes equipment function/malfunction. I love it.

Uh...I'm sure you mistyped. There's noway reserves happen once every 80,000 jumps! 800 jumps maybe. Also, are you calling Spectra "no-stretch" or refering to vectran and HMA? I unfortunately don't know the elongation on those two but dacron, spectra and even kevlar stretch to some degree. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

This is exactly what I mean. If you change the size, it affects filling time. Throw in the fact that the Stilleto was designed in the early 90s and the spectre is more recent and you'll have an improved opening characteristic. Also, change the planform you're jumping and you'll have a different opening characteristic. To ignore those factors and credit Dacron with the change in opening characteristics and you've got a specious conclusion. There is no eveidence that the lines are what softened the opening but many will believe that it was the answer. I don't understand this. I'm not trying to take away from your experience, I'm only encouraging you to question your conclusion and look for other possible answers. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Arrrrrrrgh. I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more! This quote comes up every 6 months or so and it drives me absolutely batty! At the risk of being the first one to stand up and say the emporer's nakid, the claim that you can get a 300% higher opening shock is based on fuzzy math. Spectra has an enlogation of 3.5% Polyester has an elongation of 14% That's 300% more elongation not a 300% increase in opening shock. If that was true, a 3-4 G opening (which is an average opening) with a Dacron canopy could equate to a 12-16 G opening with Spectra (which is no where near average). A hard 8 G opening would equate to a 32G opening! People would be killed on opening on a fairly regular basis! The math also doesn't factor in the transmission of force through the riser and into the harness which also elongates on opening, not to mention the elastisity of the canopy itself and we haven't even talked about weave yet. The problem is that we know, just based on elongation, spectra line doesn't absorb as much shock as Dacron. Where the Voodoo comes in is determining how much it increases the opening shock when put into a system that also has componants that attenuate the shock load. It is difficult because there is so much anecdotal evidence of out of trim canopies being relined with dacron. I had a Sabre with Specra relined with Spectra. The opening shock reduced greatly. That tells me my previous lines were out of whack, not that the new lines absorb shock better or are somehow magical. There are people out there who reline their canopies with dacron and when it opens softer say the dacron was the solution and don't even mention the trim was out which was why the thing was relined in the first place. When microline was introduced, ZP was also new on the market. The old stocastic varience that gave the odd hard opening for the first 20-50 jumps until the canopy became porous was replaced with a canopy that hard the odd hard opening every 20-50 jumps for the life of the canopy. Blaming microline for those hard openings is specious. I'm going to see if I can find a force transducer and data system and I propose that I test the shock loading on spectra vs. dacron. Dacron my be as incredible at absorbing shock as many beleive or have only an insignificant amount of force reduction. I agree 100% that Dacron absorbs more shock but I do not believe it to be significant enough to choose it over the advantages of micro line. Non-cascaded dacron has, afterall, been known to stay in the container after the bag leaves. I'll try to find that pic tomorrow too. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

Firebolt 146 Testjump Incredibly responsive! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.