skydived19006

Wow! That's interesting. I need to go do a standing long jump to see if I'd qualify to jump solo. That list would danm sure cull the field. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I think that one of the best answers I noticed here was that the "risk/reward" just doesn't add up for many or most folks. It's not all about the risk, consider the reward side of the equation. If someone honestly and simply has very little desire to skydive, then there is very little on the "reward" side. I very often tell folks that fear is not a valid reason to not skydive. You're supposed to be scared! It's a scary thing! On the other hand "I don't want to do it." is a perfectly good reason not to skydive, nothing beyond that necessary. I didn't make my first skydive until I was 25. I likely would have done it at 18 if I had done a little research. It took someone showing up to work on a Monday all excited about his skydive. I did a static line the next Saturday. Many have not done it because they're lazy. They're not motivated enough to do the leg work, pester their friends to go with, set up the reservation, etc. A motivated friend doing all the leg work is enough to get quite a few out for a tandem. I'm sure that there are endless other things that most here have not done. I've never gone SCUBA diving. Not for lack of opportunity, more for lack of motivation. I've not BASE jumped, as I'd estimate is the case for the vast majority of skydivers. Again for me the risk/reward equation simply does not add up. I don't have enough desire to overcome the risk. I'll freely admit that it would scare the hell out of me, but if I had a high level of desire I'd have no problem overcoming the fear. Although, my wife may have a problem with me BASE jump'n, so I'd also have to overcome any resistance on that end. So, pick a few things that you've not done such as BASE, SCUBA, fly an airplane, swim with sharks, etc. Ask yourself why, and there's your answer/s. "If people don't want to come to the ball park, how are you going to stop them?" Yogi Berra Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

IMO "No" means no. What you'll sometimes have to figure out with the student is when they say things like "I can't do this!" I'll ask "Do you want to skydive?" If it's simply a high level fear response, then reassuring them, and requiring them to make a decision is a logical course of action. Until they say "I do not want to skydive!" or "I do not want to do this!" Then it's negotiable. They'll often think that they're disappointing me. I've said things like "You're not disappointing me, it's your skydive. If you want to jump, we'll go, if not I have no problem ridding down with you." In over 2500 tandems, I'd guess that I've ridden down with a tandem half a dozen times. So, maybe one in 500 or so. I've never had a student get out on the step then refuse. They pretty much understand that the point to make that decision is before putting feet out. I had one who I brought back in the airplane once outside, but that was my decision, not the student's. That was just a couple of weeks ago: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4357864;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Here's a fairly Conservative DZ. This is not my policy. We go to 230 lbs, but do encourage "H/W proportionate." What is the weight limit? 200lbs for males and 165lbs for females. Participants should be in good physical condition. Sorry, but we have to draw the line somewhere. By setting this standard we are able to provide the best landings and dramatically reduce the chance of injury. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I may look at employing your physical tests. I totally agree on weeding them out in the scheduling process! It makes life a lot easier on all involved. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'm curious if anyone uses any type of physical test for tandem students. For instance our IAD students are required to have the physical strength to hang from the strut. I don't really know what a good simple test for tandem students may be. I have a fairly steep staircase leading to the loft. I could require questionable students to climb it, if they don't come tumbling back down they pass?! That's obviously a joke. But something that could be put in the FAQs, such as "Should be physically able to easily climb a flight of stairs without assistance." Anyone know of such a requirement? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Great job Martin. (It sucks riding the plane down doesn't it?) Yeah, I obviously made the right choice. My point is that it should have never got to being a decision in the door. Also, as you all have reinforced, that when it's appropriate to make a no-go decision in the door, make the call and ride the airplane down. And look, everyone will pat you on the back for it!! Yes Gary, I'd have much rather been flying the airplane down! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I appreciate the positive comments. I have learned from these forums. I have honestly thought in the air about something I'd read here and applied it. that situation likely saved me a reserve ride, but that's whole-nother story. My point in this post is in an attempt to get instructors thinking. Regardless your work situation, you never have to do a skydive, even if your refusal results in you looking for another job. If you're fired for doing the right thing, then you're better off without that job. Anyone with 100 tandems on their resume has likely had one where you had that little voice in your head telling you to reconsider the jump. If "no" is the right answer, then "no" should be the answer. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I almost did something fairly reckless this weekend. Saving grace in that sentence is "almost." So, we have a group of six tandems, and they want to add a couple. Looks like the time will work out so I agree. One of the two added is an 86 year old guy, I look at him across the hanger, he's not large at 165 lbs, and appears to be in pretty good physical shape for a guy of 86. David does the training and indicates that he doesn't respond to instruction very well at all. I'm fairly flippant about it and say "I'll take him", thinking that he likely won't arch at all, but he's not large and I can manage it. Most of those old folks don't arch worth a shit if at all anyway. Well, come time to get in the airplane, someone just almost as a side mentions that my tandem student has dementia. Again, I minimize it at that point thinking 'That's nice to know.' So, it takes quite some effort just to get him sitting in the airplane correctly, I keep thinking 'I can manage it.' We get to altitude and I hook him up. After David leaves we start toward the door (we're in a 182), and it's not going well at all, but I get him out on the step, and can't get him to put his hands in. Finally, I have a flash of brilliance and come to the decision that what I'm about to do is honestly very reckless. And, it's also pretty apparent that my tandem "student", has no idea of what the hell's going on. I put him back in the airplane and he really enjoyed the ride down. I talked with him a bit, he had been a ball turret gunner on B17s in WWII, so an airplane ride was more in line with what he should be doing. I eventually did the right thing, but it should REALLY have never progressed to that point. I also kind of scared David, you know that we worry about each other, and especially with one of these "higher work load students." David and my guy's son were just was hoping that they would find us in the airplane when they got down!! I honestly had the thought while trying to get the guy to the door of the recent video of the old lady who almost fell out of the harness. I recalled watching that video and thinking, 'There's no way he should leave the airplane with her!' And I was about to do just about the same damn thing, though I had no fear at all that he'd come out of the harness. Anyway, I thought that I'd put this out there for other TIs to chew on. This is the first time that I've ever made the decision in the airplane to not take a tandem off. I've had a few refusals, but this one was my call. This was the first because any other similar situations were refused on the ground, obviously as it should be. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Reminds me of this one. (attached) Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I need to remember that one did the original poster/troller ever come back on this thread to explain what he doesn't like about the service he got ? If you stepped on your dick that bad would you? Sparky Maybe his question was sufficiently answered? I think it was. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Reply to no one specifically, but random observations. Many DZs and Riggers are part timers. I for one work a 40 hour job, then spend the weekend at the DZ from early to late, generally getting home between 10:00 and 11:00 pm. I'll also generally have one or two evenings tied up with the business of running a DZ and maintaining an airplane, and we don't fly during the week. I also have two small children who don't get enough time from their father, and a wife who would prefer to have a husband. For most small Cessna DZs the fun jumpers are paying cost with no margin at all, depending on how you run the numbers. How many of you (fun jumpers) do what you do and have a large segment of your work done at no profit/pay? Sure, I could add more amenities for the fun jumpers, but I'd need to push up the slot price by $5 to $10. At that point, they'd likely drive to another DZ that operates out of a T-hanger for the lower price slots. It's a bit of a catch 22. Same situation for most riggers. They have a real job, generally spend a whole lot of time at the DZ, and do rigging in the evenings. Most fun jumpers primary concern is "I need it for the weekend, I have to go to a boogie!" One of the local riggers was relating a situation to me a few years ago. He had a guy come to him wanting his rig repacked for the coming weekend. Rigger told him that he couldn't do it. Skydiver refused to take no for an answer. Eventually, rigger said that he'd do it, but with a few conditions. He informed the skydiver that while he was packing, that skydiver would be running a load of laundry, while mowing his yard, and when that was done he had a list of groceries for him to go get. Once he convinced the skydiver that he was indeed absolutely serious, skydiver decided that he didn't actually need the pack as bad as he had first thought. As others had indicated, a large segment of what we do is a cottage industry. Some guy doing it on the side out of his back bedroom. As with most things, you get what you pay for. You want good service, go to the multi-million dollar DZ operations, and stick with the multi-million dollar suppliers. Or as TJ indicated, buy an airplane, hang out a shingle, and dedicate yourself to great customer service in your new venture! It is what it is. Martin Myrtle DZO Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

The season for us in Kansas started in July with the 100+ heat this year. Preceding July, we canceled/rescheduled 80% of our tandems mostly due to wind, with a storm or two thrown in for good measure. When anyone would complain about the spring weather, my standard response is "Eventually, it'll just be hot." We've now had 7 100 plus days in a row, with a total of 14 days with a high temperature of over 100 degrees. At least if you're in the California/Arizona desert, South Texas, etc. where these temperatures are typical, you'll at least generally get to jump in the spring and winter. In this area if you don't want to jump in the cold or hot, and can't jump in wind over 25, or with low clouds and storms, you'll basically have half a dozen days a year to jump. I guess that turned into a bit of a rant. Now, back to regular programing. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That to me is a good example of poor priorities. My priority and what I teach and demand of my TIs is that the job of TI is primary. Don't even fucking worry about the camera until you're under a good drogue. Then, forget about it again on deployment until you have a good canopy over your head. I see the videos don on my DZ, so easily enforced. I will grant you that I put my left hand in different location on deployment when I have the handcam on, not so much to get the opening shot, but really just not a good idea to grab risers immediately with that weight. Some may call that compromising safety, I'd call it a simple procedure to keep from getting whacked with the cameras. I'll agree with most opinions here that hand cam can be done safely, it can also cause problems if given the wrong priority. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'm also a USPA T I/E, though with nowhere near the jump numbers as RIGGER. I only have 2500 tandems, and likely 500 to 1000 with handcam. Of the above list, I will freely admit that I do not do freefall handles checks, never have, with or without hand cam. IMO handle checks are/were important with the student mounted rip cord, my rigs do not have the potential of a floating ripcord, and I have three rip cords. I'll freely admit that I do not do visual drogue checks, I don't want to carry a mirror. I've had a couple of drogues get entangled in the bridle, and believe it or not I could tell that the drogue was not preforming as advertised. Hell, I don't even watch my main open, unless it's progressed to the point that I know I have a problem or potentially have a problem. "All jumpers must weigh less than 200lbs for males, 165lbs for females." I copied the above quote from a dropzone in an adjacent state. They've chosen to set what many of us would consider to be fairly ridiculous weight restrictions. Of course there are generally two sides to any argument, they may argue that we're being irresponsible and unnecessary endangering a female student who's 6' tall, with a powerful build and who weighs 180 lbs. Sometimes, we simply will have to agree to disagree (or not). Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

How many years would that be? I've been doing hand cam since 2006 personally, and I did not invent the concept. I know that there are many arguments against it, but as with the arguments for handcam, they're generally based on money. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

The only one's who like handcam are the ones getting paid to do it. It's been my experience that the students will generally choose Hand-cam over outside video given the option, especially at a 182 DZ. They get to jump two at a time, they get canopy footage and canopy interview. They get a couple hundred stills, and they get it for $75 at my DZ. As a DZO at an one 182 DZ, I choose it as well. Yes, for the bottom line, but also in the interest of freeing up the airplane for fun jumpers. We can do 16 tandems with video in 8 loads, and the fun jumpers and students can have the other 12 to 16 loads. Or we could do 16 tandems with outside video in 16 loads, and leave 4 to 8 loads for fun jumpers and students. As far as the safety issue goes, I guess that the danger has been born out by all the injuries and fatalities caused as a result of hand cam over the years we've been doing it. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

He may not be referring to manufacturers that are "currently" building rigs. Eclipse comes to mind. I know of a few of those out there still, a few DZ's that use them as well, even one in California, if I am not mistaken that bought all the spares parts and patents so they could keep jumping, with out restrictions. Not sure how that "stirs the pot", but I almost get an implication in the post. Matt When Stunts Adventure Equipment was building the Eclipse tandem rigs, I'm pretty sure that they did have the standard/typical "18 or age of contract" thing in their user agreement. As I understand, the Eclipse Manual was re-typed from the Vector II manual. It included information on the Vector I (no drogue), so I would guess that it also included the age min. That said, the User Agreement, and Manual are two separate documents. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Me too, to date no response. I'm sure that Buff is aware of my post, he started this thread so one would assume that he has a "watch" on it. I made the same offer over a year ago, the ball's in his court. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I was made aware of this thread a couple of days ago, but didn't really read through it. I wouldn't normally air stuff like this in public, but this seems to be the vehicle that Buff has chosen. I am the DZO mentioned above. First, Buff is welcome at my DZ. Yes, I was very upset with him, he quit as an instructor because he was in a pissing contest with one or two other instructors. He told those two that he was done instructing and left. The next Saturday morning, he was scheduled to run the FJC, didn't show up, I called him, and this is when Buff informed me that he had quit by telling two other instructors the weekend before. By the end of the conversation, I related my feelings on the subject in very frank terms. Move forward a couple of weeks, I left messages with Mike (Buff) asking to get together to talk and see if we could work it out. I offered to meet at a bar, and buy him a couple of beers. This received no reply. Buff and I have since had a very cordial and respectful conversation relative to a recent fatality. To my knowledge none of the regular jumpers at ACDZ have refused contact with Buff. Those who were his friends before the falling out, to this day only express sadness at the loss of his presence at the DZ. I'll say it again. Buff has never been banned, he has always been welcome, and those who were his friends are still his friends. He dropped his instructional ratings, the problems were all based around instructors picking at each other. I don't care if he ever has desire to instruct again. Come out and fun jump. Buff, let me know when and where, I'll buy you a couple of beers and we'll see if we can move past this. Martin Myrtle DZO Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

My dad made a jump at 85, and the TM peeled his hands off. But Dad told me later that he just didn't have his harness held exactly as the TM had said he wanted it (when you're old, you're not always all that flexible), he wasn't saying no. But it only took 2 tries to peel him off -- this was way past that, never mind all the other appalling stuff in the video. Yeah, I'm glad it's out there too. Wendy P. If I ever have an inkling that someone doesn't want to jump before climbing out, I'll always reaffirm with them simply by asking "Do you want to skydive?!" They have to confirm that they do want to jump before we leave the airplane. Once back in, and the door closed I'll ask them again, also generally remind them that they've "spent their money either way." I personally do not care if they jump or not, they're not disappointing me, I have 4000 jumps, why should I care? I can ride down with them and save the pack job. On a 182 load a year or so ago, I was in back while the other TI was in the process of exiting his student informed him "I don't think I can do this!" I don't remember what his response was, but it went back and fourth two or three times. Finally, I got in the middle of it, actually a bit helpful that I could look her in the face. I asked "Do you want to skydive?!" She again replied "I don't think I can do it!" I assured her that she could, and she climbed out. On the ground she cam to me and said "Thank you for getting firm with me up there." She wanted to jump, but was about to let her fear stop her. It takes more than the physical ability, skill, and training to be a good TI. It also requires good decision making skills, especially under stress. This guy made a very poor decision at a fairly low stress point in time. I've refused to let more than one TI work at my DZ because I didn't trust their decision making skills. Martin Edit to add: UPT calls their mod the "STUDENT HARNESS Butt Strap Retrofit Modification" It's not a "Y-mod" Ties from the "X" behind the back pad, across the lower back strap, then down to a "T" between the leg straps. Take a look: http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Rigging/WI_167___Student_Harness_Butt_Strap_Retrofit_Modification__Part_043_001_005__09_36_51%5B1%5D.pdf Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Hi Martin, I've thought a lot about the conversion. As I said before I have 3 straight tails, which I've been kicking around doing the conversion on, but I was always hesitant to put close to six figures$ into a 50 + year old airplane with 6,000+ hours. I got the 1975 model out of a barn where it sat for 15 years. Its only got 1100 TT and I picked it up for a fraction of whats it worth. so basically the airframe was free, I'm just paying for mods/upgrades. As I said before and turbine is out of my reach, so I'd like to build this 182 into the next closest thing. I'd really like to go with the 550 N since is 310 continuous HP, instead of the 300 that the 550-D produces, but I think the only way that will happen is with a field approval and that can be risky. I'm sure I'll never get my $$ out of it, but that being said a few of my 182's have been in my family since the late 1960's, flying jumpers, and are still flying every day! I'm hoping this P model will be an airplane I can pass to my grand kid's in 30 years. I don't think you'll find an all around better work horse (piston) than a 180/182/206. As I understand the field approval process has changed somewhat within the last few years. I was informed by my FSDO that they could not approve any engine upgrade on a field approval beyond 10% increase from original. That was the deciding factor in going with the Texas Skyways engine for me, since they had the STC back to 1956. I later figured out that I could have went with the Pponk on a field approval even though it is more than 10% at 275 +/- hp, but the data plate on the engine will indicate something like 240 hp. Were I starting over, I may be inclined to consider a U206 for the two additional seats. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I think that if you have Airplanes do the conversion, it'll run you over $80,000, if you get a quote please do share! It's always about the money, this is a large driving factor influencing so many DZOs to hang the Pponk 520 on their airplanes. I did the Texas Skyways O-520U/TS with prop for around $45,000 three years ago. You'd likely be money ahead if you could find an airframe with the engine upgrade already complete. You do the Stol, Wing-X, and engine you're going to have over $100,000 invested, plus what you have in the airframe to begin. One of the guys once advised me "You'll never be able to get that money out of that airplane." To which I replied "I'll have to fly that money out of it!" http://www.airplains.com/index.php/parts/engine-conversion/84 Powerplant The benefits and increased performance offered by either the IO-520-D engine or the IO-550-D engine are impressive, with a few differences.IO-520-D The IO-520-D engine generates 300 horsepower at an RPM of 2850, which is allowed for 5 minute intervals. On take off, at full throttle, 300 horsepower are available for five minutes, then a power change is made to bring the engine back to 285 horsepower (maximum continuous horsepower). The IO-550-D engine generates 300 horsepower at 2700 rpm, and has no limitations. The basic difference between the IO-520 engine and the IO-550 engine is the stroke of the piston within the cylinder, the 550 being longer, thus creating more cubic inches, and 300 sustainable horsepower through increased torque. Your engine will be equipped with a new starter, Bendix 1200 series magentos, harness and plugs, heavy duty non congealing oil cooler, high capacity oil pump, VAR crankshaft, Heavy crankcase (7th Stud) and integral oil filter. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

You can tell people anything you want, it doesn't make it true. The problem with relying on statistics to demonstrate safety is the fact that statistics can be manipulated into "proving" anything you want. If you want to show skydiving is safer than driving a car, you do what the USPA & similar folks do. You look at total number of deaths caused by each activity, including vehicle passengers & pedestrians. You compare the fatality rates based on the number of fatalities per 1000 participants. And you use "estimates" that are nearly impossible to verify. If you want to show skydiving is more dangerous, you limit the comparison to active participants (so exclude pedestrian, bicycle & possibly passenger fatalities). You compare the number of fatalities per 1000 miles (or other distance traveled) rather than per participant, since since even skydivers spend a LOT more time in a car than they do in the air. One set of statistics will "prove" that you're more likely to die on your way to/from the DZ in your car. The other will "prove" it's about 2000 times more likely you'll die skydiving. Statistics are used to reinforce already existing belief, not prove anything. And that's the problem with relying on statistics, especially ones put out/promoted by someone with a bias. The reason skydiving is considered so dangerous is because of the risk/benefit value, not the risk alone. Cars have a significant benefit to the user & society in general. For most people, vehicles of some sort (car, bus, taxi, etc) are a literal necessity for daily life. Skydiving's only benefit is personal entertainment. Puting your life at risk just for fun is "unsafe." Taking the same risk in order to function/survive in society isn't. That spurred a few thoughts. 1. 73.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot. 2. My very aged grandmother, late 80s, early 90s, once advised me regarding my jumping "You don't need to be taking any unnecessary risks." I suggested that her going on a 150 mile trip to visit her sister was also endangering her live unnecessarily. I had another thought but statistically, and due to my age, I lose 27.43% of all thoughts if not acted upon immediately. Totally off topic, but the same grandmother was lamenting the 100 degree heat one summer Sunday afternoon while visiting for dinner. I asked her "Grandma, when you were growing up, there was no air-conditioning, what did people do then." Kind of being sarcastic, and suggesting that she had gone soft. Her response "People died." She got me on that one! But yes, statistics are driven by a political agenda and therefore bullshit. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Actually the logic is sound. If the number of people per 1000 died doing lake activities at the same rate that they do skydiving, watersports would be banned just for the fact they are considered relatively "safe.". The only reason our numbers are low is the number of people is low and the number of licensed jumpers and non tandem students is far lower. So, by what factor if skydiving were to grow would the number of fatalities bring an end to the sport? Actually, the political direction may be headed such that Professional Football is soon banned. It seems to be causing brain and other damage at quite a bit higher rate than skydiving. But then "we" love our football, and there's a hell of a lot of money involved. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ