JoeWeber

No I cannot. The triune nature of man is that he is a spirit, lives in a body and has a soul. The soul is comprised of the mind, emotions and free will. As Christian I have no responsibility regarding the final disposition of anyone's soul. My responsibility is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is tell folks that unless they exercise their free will to accept the gift of eternal life they will inherit eternal death. The battle for the soul is in the mind. Christ makes the choice easy. Satan makes it extremely difficult. Satan influences the mind to think about what it is thinking. Thus the mind becomes confused and muddled. That is why repentance, or the changing of the mind, requires surrender of the ego. So there it is, no waiting required. Your belief system requires that you interfere in the lives of others but your meme is that it is we who interfere with yours. "Ditto from us regarding progressive liberals. We do not want your power and control over our lives." It's the other way around, actually. My hope was that honest conversation might cause you to see that truth. Your truth claims about Jesus and Satan and souls and repentance and your responsibilities are unsupported in any factual way. You simply choose to believe what you believe and you will never be satisfied until we all fall in line and believe it too. There is no conversation to be had here. You've just admitted to misogyny, bigotry, paranoia and the divine right of interference in the lives others. You've said before that only here, on these pages, are you affected by we progressive liberals. Well, why not leave the field and be fully free of us?

That works for me. Deal. Neato. That didn't take long. If the market is still open I'll trade two clearies and a boulder cat's eye for a ban on bump stocks. While I wait for takers, tell me how progressive liberalism is constraining your life. I'm hoping for examples. To be a sport, I'll start with one from my side: science. Scratching your nose destroys millions more cells than compose a zygote or even a 100 cell unilaminar blastocyst. Christians are relentless in the politicizing of what they believe is the magical ensoulment of this pin head size formation of cells. They want women they have never met to bear children owing to their beliefs. I think that is wrong. The evil of progressive liberalism only effects my life now on this forum. My education required me to work in that environment. I did, I handled it and I was successful. The problem was that I was phony. I did not believe in much of what I was doing but, there was that mortgage thing. Your case for abortion is really a description of a miscarriage. Babies are well formed when they are aborted. The Christian stance against abortion, as you know, is the belief that conception creates the soul. We attempt as best we can to save souls. I gave my permission to abort my child, Nov 73, because my wife and I were divorced. That decision haunted and condemned me until I was forgiven at the moment of salvation, 16 Mar 81. The cell formations I mentioned are early stage, sure. But they are also post conception so the soul thing is already in play. Hence the Christian objection to RU-486, the morning after pill. Souls are the problem here. For my part you can have as many souls as you like. In fact, if you are a chimera, you might already have two. Secular views on abortion place no restriction on you but your beliefs would place restrictions on others. Can you not believe as you will without insisting that we have souls too?

That works for me. Deal. Neato. That didn't take long. If the market is still open I'll trade two clearies and a boulder cat's eye for a ban on bump stocks. While I wait for takers, tell me how progressive liberalism is constraining your life. I'm hoping for examples. To be a sport, I'll start with one from my side: science. Scratching your nose destroys millions more cells than compose a zygote or even a 100 cell unilaminar blastocyst. Christians are relentless in the politicizing of what they believe is the magical ensoulment of this pin head size formation of cells. They want women they have never met to bear children owing to their beliefs. I think that is wrong.

Ditto from us regarding progressive liberals. We do not want your power and control over our lives. We're in agreement and our positions are intact. Not too shabby. Maybe in another thread we can parse the means by which our held views are not held over each other.

I do believe there are credible arguments for not carrying a concealed weapon. The first is that for most folks carrying a concealed weapon is no different, or more valuable an accessory, than carrying a comfort dog in a bag. I strongly believe that if the bastardized interpretation of the second amendment we've been gifted with was less supportive of concealed carry, open carry, bump stocks and on and on then some folks who vote unerringly for the most pro gun candidate might take a pause and consider other candidates. The fact is that pro gun candidates are also more likely to be racist, anti-LGBT, anti-science, anti-choice, anti-secular, and in my view, anti-common sense. We also used to be a country with an animistic foundation. Those folks surely believed in personal responsibility. Christianity is just taking a turn at bat and their inning will also end whether its adherents like it or not. The economy grew under Obama; Trumps economy is still an if. But it doesn't matter one iota to people like me. My concerns about your "faith, the Bible and the 2nd Amendment" and their respective negative impacts on our society can not be purchased with alms. Also, I don't want you to go easy or not. I believe you have just one life before annihilation and you should live it as you choose. I only ask that believers leave the rest of us alone.

I'll credit Ron that he eventually said what is factual, sort of. But the bottom line is that Ron and so many others are living a Gunsmoke fantasy that perpetuates the myth that we need guns in our pockets to be safe. Some thirty or so years ago I was awakened by a window being opened and shoes hitting the floor. Dude came into my bedroom before I could move. When he moved on I rose, took my 300 Savage off the wall and chambered a round and went out to say hello. Given the new reality he sat still until the cops showed. But what would be different if I had a pistol cocked, loaded and under my pillow? If I would have killed him would it have been all good and no worries? I'm armed in my home and I think that everyone should be. That said, toting concealed weapons wherever you go is anathema to my way of thinking. I have never heard a credible argument for concealed carry and I doubt I ever will.

I'm unhorsed, I must admit. Several members of a small church congregation have used their concealed weapons to save themselves or others. I think they should publish their experiences and put paid to our namby pamby concerns.

You replied: "In response to your last question, yes. We have several LEOs and former combat vets in our congregation." My apologies, I didn't read an answer there. I read that you said yes and I next read that you have several LEO's and former combat vets in your congregation. If it was you personally that needed to pull out a concealed weapon for a legitimate reason then what purpose was served by mentioning police and vets? Hence, I took it that it was one of your fellows, not you. Regardless, unless your humility prevents you from doing so, would you please explain the circumstances? Maybe it's my sheltered life out here in the land of the Fluffy Bellied Danderhooey but I have never met a single person who saved themselves or another with a concealed weapon. That doesn't completely inform my view that concealed carry is unnecessary but it is a factor. I have probably read such stories but if I did they have successfully escaped my memory. On a side note I just finished dumping 10 rounds of 00 Buckshot into the hill with my new Berretta 1301 Tactical. Sweet kit. Fast action, nice balance and a big easy to find in the dark charging handle.

You realize that you closed with a rhetorical question, yes? I am not seeking to embarrass you. I am simply trying to illustrate for you, in my own peculiar way and according to my own peculiar views, that you are somewhat delusional on the subject of guns and their daily utility. I also hold that your delusion is, in some degree, caused by your faith that a spirit figure will guide your aim in a church full of screaming, panicking people. The problem is that the bastard who killed all of those innocents was also comfortable bringing his gun to church. The problem is that it is all too easy to get guns and that's why this damnable plague of mass shootings seems to have no end. The problem is that we have bump stocks and convertible AR-15's being sold in parking lots and high magazine capacity Glock's being carried openly on the streets of America. The problem is that too many people, owing to their own selfish self-interest, have bought into the good guy with a gun myth. The problem is that a certain large number of gun rights folks are terrified of giving an inch on anything. Well, I’m a gun rights guy but I am not freaked out about regulation and I don’t see a reason to go to prayer with a pistol in my pocket. Seriously, have you or has anyone you know that carries a concealed weapon, at church or no, ever needed it to stop a mass shooting or for an after the fact take down? Let's lower the bar to stopping a candy bar theft. How about using it for any legitimate reason? In response to your last question, yes. We have several LEOs and former combat vets in our congregation. But, like I stated at the beginning. We think differently over here than you people out there. Indeed you do. The question was about the day to day carrying of concealed weapons. I suppose I could have clarified it by saying civilians in everyday life but definitely not police at work or soldiers at war. Had I felt the need to do so I would also exempt off duty police and active duty but out of uniform soldiers who are pistol qualified. I say that because I think most rational folks would agree that having a few well trained and regulated pistol marksmen sprinkled around is a good thing. The sample group was specific: "have you or has anyone you know". Here's your chance to prove your point, why not take it?

You realize that you closed with a rhetorical question, yes? I am not seeking to embarrass you. I am simply trying to illustrate for you, in my own peculiar way and according to my own peculiar views, that you are somewhat delusional on the subject of guns and their daily utility. I also hold that your delusion is, in some degree, caused by your faith that a spirit figure will guide your aim in a church full of screaming, panicking people. The problem is that the bastard who killed all of those innocents was also comfortable bringing his gun to church. The problem is that it is all too easy to get guns and that's why this damnable plague of mass shootings seems to have no end. The problem is that we have bump stocks and convertible AR-15's being sold in parking lots and high magazine capacity Glock's being carried openly on the streets of America. The problem is that too many people, owing to their own selfish self-interest, have bought into the good guy with a gun myth. The problem is that a certain large number of gun rights folks are terrified of giving an inch on anything. Well, I’m a gun rights guy but I am not freaked out about regulation and I don’t see a reason to go to prayer with a pistol in my pocket. Seriously, have you or has anyone you know that carries a concealed weapon, at church or no, ever needed it to stop a mass shooting or for an after the fact take down? Let's lower the bar to stopping a candy bar theft. How about using it for any legitimate reason?

As long as we are engaging in fantasy, would it not be better to have unarmed shooters? Neat tidbit about Marine caliber philosophy and pistol instructor sighting advice. I'll gamble that you are currently neither a Marine or a Pistol instructor. I'll further venture that you've not recently-if ever-practiced your aim with live rounds in a crowded room. No need really when outcomes are best calculated after the fact, all involved have good intentions and the locally popular deity is on your side. Of course, if the good lord fails to guide our aim to neutralize the threat, Inshallah.

We talk different here than you people out there. You, Sir, have no idea who I am although you may have worked it out that I live in Oregon. Clearly, in your mind, I am defined. I am not anti gun. In fact, recently I bought a Berretta 1301 Tactical 12 gage for home defense. I wasn't happy relying on my guns from my hunting day's. Not withstanding, I absolutely think that when it comes to guns we are out of control in this country. Military or replicant military guns are unnecessary. Background checks for all gun owners are reasonable. I also have no problem with registration. The second amendment people can take aim at me as they surely will but in my mind no rational reading of the amendment confers the rights that the Supreme Court has granted by decision. So much for originalism when it doesn't suit the purpose it seems. You doubt that any innocents would be shot by you or your brethren? Sir, your delusions know no bounds. I suppose yours would be a Heavenly Horrendous Crossfire and as all in the line of fire were believers, no worries and Bobs your uncle.

Holy crap, if you'll pardon the double meaning, you and your godly co-parishioners would cause a horrendous crossfire? Are you at all familiar with the meaning of the word? Well, I guess we no longer need go to Northern Ireland to experience how the Christians love each other.

Marc, Stand firm Brother. They have nothing but logic and facts to support their absurd positions. Good grammar and advanced degrees will always wilt in the face of determined cutting and pasting. Soon their folly will be apparent for all to see and you will be surely granted your due. You go girl! Joe

Warnings are for kids. Risk a banning and set yourself free.

There are times when one facepalm won't do.

Mark, I know I'm not allowed to call you a douchebag or a moron so I won't. It's not because you aren't it's because there are rules here that we all must follow. Just to get that out of the way. But I'm curious, is it a lonely dark room where you create the anti-grammatical nonsense that you post or are you the social media lead for a secret nincompoop society? Either way, Kudos for your ability to make actually intelligent people engage. Well done!

Rob, You know me and you know that is not a universal truth. We need to quit accepting that is the way things are and that things will never change. J.

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