Douva

I can think of 32 people who might disagree. I can think of a few problems with this. Notice comes in that a college age kid is walking around with a handgun killing other students...the info on this shooter is limited but he might be male and tall. How does any member of the assault team know who the kid is? Now they start looking in windows and see nothing but college men with handguns in the entire building....while looking around they see some shooting from inside classroom out into the hallway at something. Meanwhile reports of students getting killed are still coming out from the students that got out of the building (who will all spend the next few days in jail because they had handguns and the need to figure out who was killing and who was doing it in self defence). Meanwhile the order to shoot the killer comes in.....and friendly fire happens to some students. Also, the killer could actually escape alive in this scenario if he kept his face covered and acted like he was only shooting in self defence. Don't forget that there was a lot of panic from these students and they didn't know who the killer was....so on the way out of the building they see another kid with a gun so they shoot first and ask questions later....another friendly fire death. This is really a big 'what if' scenario but for every person that says more guns would have meant less bodies I tend not to agree with them. This isn't a movie. Real world "shoot outs" are relatively quick. If there was a shooting by an armed citizen, it would most likely be over by the time the police got there. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I can't argue with that. I don't claim to carry a gun because I think the chance of needing it is so great. I carry a gun because it's not much of an inconvenience, and I know that as long as I have it, I won't ever be thinking, "Man, I wish I had a gun right now." I may still be killed by a deranged mass murderer, but at least I won't die thinking, "Man, I wish I had a gun." I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

It happened to this man: Associated Press, 07/21/06 State: TN Chris Cope said it was "like something in a serial killer movie," at a Memphis, Tenn., shopping center where he manages a financial services office. According to police, a store employee began stabbing co-workers after a work dispute. The attacker had already stabbed eight people and was chasing a ninth when Cope ran to his truck to retrieve his 9 mm pistol. "[The suspect] just kept saying, 'I'm insane. I wish I was never born,' and all that stuff," Cope said. But apparently the crazed man valued his life more than he let on. "When he turned around and saw my pistol, he threw the knife away, put his hands up and got on the ground," Cope said. "He saw my gun and that was pretty much it." It happened to Suzanna Gratia Hupp, and her parents died because she'd chosen to leave her gun in the car, rather than risk criminal prosecution for carrying it. The use of a citizen's concealed handgun is never Plan "A." Plan "A" is for the system to protect us against this type of violence. But when Plan "A" fails, a concealed handgun makes for a reasonable Plan "B." I don't expect to get in a car wreck, when I get in my car each day, but I still wear my seatbelt. And I don't expect to be attacked by an armed assailant, when I leave my house each day, but I still carry my gun. There's nothing wrong with being prepared. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I can think of 32 people who might disagree. Do you honestly believe the myth that people being armed would have prevented this? Lemme ask you something; How many guns does the Secret Service carry around the President of the United States? Follow up question; How many Presidents have been shot at? I'll admit that once the shooting has started being armed might have some effect on the length the shooting spree continues, but it does absolutely nothing to prevent it in the first place. You're right. Arming civilians won't ensure that nobody dies, but it will help prevent the type of MASS shooting we saw on Monday. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

That'll get you thrown in jail. The prosecutor will tell the jury, "If he had time to aim for the knee caps and elbows, he obviously wasn't really in danger." I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

They arrested a "person of interest," after the first shooting, who matched the shooter's description. He turned out to be the wrong person. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

If you don't know the answer to your own question you shouldn't own a gun. Actually, this is why you should take a concealed handgun course (required by most states for a concealed handgun license). They teach you when it's okay to shoot somebody. The short answer in Texas is that you are authorized to use lethal force to stop an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm to yourself or someone else. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Well, they're illegal, so I've never actually seen them in person, but the bullet is typically made of steel so it won't deform/fragment as easily and it has a relatively sharp point. Apparently they were a problem for a while in the 80s-90s, where they went by the name of "cop killers" because soft body-armor did essentially nothing to stop them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor_piercing_round I was being sarcastic because some asshat was complaining about someone talking about frangible rounds that turn into a fine powder on impact, minimizing/eliminating the chance of penetrating through even thin walls. I keep my pistol loaded with frangible rounds. It's not as necessary now, but I used to live in an apartment, and I was concerned about the threat to my neighbors if I was ever forced to use it. One time, while shooting with some friends at the drop zone, I decided to see how well the frangible rounds work. I lined up three medium size pumpkins on the ground, back to back. Then I lay prone and fired a frangible round (Glaser Safety Slug) into the front pumpkin, from point blank range. The bullet penetrated both sides of the first pumpkin and went into the second pumpkin but never came out of it. Three layers of pumpkin was all it took to stop that round. That's pretty impressive. The reason I asked about armor piercing rounds is that any center-fire rifle round (any medium or large game hunting round or military round) will penetrate soft body armor. A lot of people don't grasp the difference between that and "armor piercing" ammunition. Also, a lot of people still believe the old "Teflon coated bullets" myth. "Armor piercing" bullets are actually steel core bullets that were designed to give law enforcement better penetration when shooting through car doors, windshields, and the like. They were later found to have better penetration against soft body armor. Steel core bullets were coated with Teflon, in order to prevent wear on gun barrels. Hollywood picked up on this "Teflon coated bullet" idea, and the notion of "cop killer bullets" was born. Even when steel core rounds were legal for public purchase, they were pretty rare. I don't believe there's ever been an instance of a police officer being killed by one. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

That's really easy to say when you're not the one huddled behind a desk, watching your classmates and professor be shot dead, hoping the gunman will somehow overlook you. I wouldn't fault anyone for the way they behaved. Tactically speaking, their response to the attack might not have been ideal, but they haven't been trained tactically. They are/were college students, not Marines. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-21770 I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I think it is safe to say he was not a law abiding gun owner before he shot his first victim. His 9mm and .22 handguns had the serial numbers removed. Not legal Ohh, that's gotta hurt, John. According to the VA State Police, both guns were obtained LEGALLY. Yep. They were legal up till the point where he filed off the serial numbers. (Guess he thought about surviving the event). Possession of weapons with altered or obscured serial numbers is considered proof of bad intent and I believe is a felony. There is no defense for it, so yes, he was a criminal before he shot his first victim. So this "law abiding gun owner" morphed into a criminal and a homicidal maniac. A-Mazing that such a thing could happen to a law abiding individual deemed worthy just a week or so ago to legally buy a deadly weapon. Yep, no system is perfect. Occasionally, people will procure guns through all the proper channels and then use them to do bad things. Likewise, if guns are banned, people will occasionally procure them through improper channels and use them to do bad things. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

DING...DING...DING...We have a winner! I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Just today...www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2764092#2764092 The bullshit is all yours. Yeah, god forbid someone would recommend safer ammo. That's terrible. I think we should only allow armor piercing rounds...

Well put, Bill. There are no simple solutions to complex problems, and only fools and tyrants suggest there are. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

I agree; though, I wouldn't call it the "glorification of guns;" I'd call it the "mystification of guns." In the minds of too many young Americans, we turn guns into some mysterious, mystical toy. Rather than appreciating guns as practical tools that must be treated with respect and caution, they see guns as gateways to the world of action films and video games. These people are worse than the people who fear guns because these people deify guns and yet have no true respect for them. When I was a kid, I knew exactly where my dad kept his guns, but I never once tried to look at them on my own because I knew that I could get my dad to show them to me any time I wanted. I'd been told that if I ever tried to look at them by myself, I'd be in the worst trouble I'd ever been in, and I'd been told that many kids died each year looking at their parents' guns, so it was a lot easier for me to just find my dad and ask, "Dad, can I look at the pistol?" By the time I was grown, guns held no mystic quality to me--They were just a part of life. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Amazing how people whose position doesn't have a leg to stand on tend to resort to snide comments and petty one-liners, rather than defending their position with fact based logic. Unfortunately there are 66 legs that will not be standing any more, yet you choose to make a pro-gun statement out of it. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. More of that fact based logic, huh, Kallend? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Yea climb off the pile of corpses, you're crowding Douva out up there. Do I need to repeat myself? Your hasty and sickening mountaineering expedition to the top of the the pile of corpses at VT makes your attempt to arbitrate posting etiquette in this thread one of the more twisted things I've seen in SC. Do I need to repeat myself? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You've never been hurt by a gun owned by anyone on this board. You've never been threatened by a gun owned by anyone on this board. Who are YOU to tell us what rights we do and don't have? What gives you the right to tell us that we don't have the right to own guns? Do you think you can assume the power to dictate our rights simply because the idea of us owning guns scares you? Maybe the idea of you and 30,000 of your friends hurtling toward the earth at 120 mph every weekend scares me. Your baseless fear doesn't negate our rights. You see no need to have a handgun that is reloaded quickly because you live in a bubble. In your naivety, you assume that your twenty-four years in late twentieth century/early twenty-first century America--most likely growing up in a white, middle class family--are all encompassing. You lack a sufficient grasp of the threats the human race has faced throughout history and the threats we may face in the future. You've never known a life where you weren't relatively safe, and you're shortsighted enough to think you never will. It's always easier to feel anger than grief. It's easier to find somebody or something to blame (dead gunmen make lousy targets for anger) than accept that bad things happen to good people and deal with our pain. Blaming the guns is easier than accepting that life is uncertain. After all, the understanding that life is uncertain is the line of thinking that usually leads to buying a gun. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Yea climb off the pile of corpses, you're crowding Douva out up there. Do I need to repeat myself? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

2006: 1 killed and 19 injured in a campus shooting at a college in Montreal, Quebec. 2004: 326 people (mostly students) killed in Beslan, Russia school during rebel confrontation 2002: 18 students killed in shooting spree in Germany 2001: 8 students killed in Japan (knife, not gun) 1996: 17 shot and killed in school in Scotland I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Oh yeah? Well, QEII's face looks like my dog's butthole. The Royal Family--how fucking stupid--They're a bunch of rich assholes who do nothing to warrant their lot in life. Will you all knock off this "school rivalry" bullshit so that we can continue the discussion of the topic at hand? Thank you. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

And the people who are already crying for better security on college campuses and better warning systems to alert students to danger--Where are they building their soapboxes? This incident illustrates a problem. I addressed the problem. This type of issue has to be addressed before people form opinions based on fear, anger, and knee-jerk reactions. Contrary to what we'd all like to believe, the world doesn't stand still when bad things happen. Reality never takes a "moment of silence." I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

Amazing how people whose position doesn't have a leg to stand on tend to resort to snide comments and petty one-liners, rather than defending their position with fact based logic. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

You can do so, but you have no right to tell others to do so. My guns have never harmed anyone. I keep them, as it is a right under the Constitution, and I have a right to protect myself. The Courts have said the Police are under no obligation to protect any one individual. Therefore, I choose to protect myself. If one of the students had been armed, perhaps this could have been avoided. Outlaw guns. Then you've only disarmed the prey, not the predator. That would have been a good idea....an untrained teen or 20 something in a packed classoom building full of mass panic choosing to go vigilante. As it is no one knew what was going on for some time and they knew someone was shooting up students....people fled for safety and did things like jump out of top floors and broke their body in a panic. Now, lets add in to the mix several people with guns not knowing who the killer is....SWAT people looking to take down the killer as well. My thoughts are that more would be dead if there were other students with guns today. But hey, you have your gun rights still and we still have 33 dead. Are they connected? I'm sure there will be plenty of stats saying they aren't but I suggest you don't try to sell that fact to those 33 families right now. Hopefully that number won't grow since at least 50 were shot. And before anyone stops to throw out hateful words about pro/anti gun laws....stop and put yourself in the shoes of the people out there today in West VA. They watched friends die and now have to deal with it. 33 senseless deaths......there really are no words. Since you seem to think it's so important to put ourselves in the shoes of the victims and their families, why don't you ask somebody who's been there? I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

It's a shame that you weren't personally effected by this so that you could understand just how fucking stupid it is to feel like society needs guns. We need guns like we need a massacre like this in every community. Oh.. sorry.. you probably hunt and are worried about personal security. What the fuck ever. I'm worried about innocent people being fucking killed because some jackass feels he is sooooo all important that he needs to have firepower. Give me a fucking break. This is my hometown. I was born and raised in Blacksburg. I've hated guns my entire life. I'm sure the innocent people that were killed would wish that this guy hadn't been able to get his hands on guns. Don't even fucking talk about whoring the deaths of innocents. Guns are bullshit. Get rid of them. This is the email I sent to friends and family: The argument that you can't understand an issue like this until it affects you personally is pure nonsense. The people with the most balanced perspective on an issue are seldom the ones personally affected by it. Take, for example, the man who abhors the death penalty until his daughter is murdered. Did the facts surrounding the death penalty change, or is his judgement now clouded by emotion? You can call it "whoring," if you like, but when something like today's tragedy occurs, supporters of gun rights are going to stand up against the inevitable backlash and fear mongering, with cold, hard facts. And the cold, hard facts support our belief that outlawing guns neither prevents gun crime nor murder. The largest mass-murder in this country's history was perpetrated with box cutters. The second largest was perpetrated with diesel fuel and fertilizer. The 9/11 bombers, Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer never needed guns. But do you know who did need guns? The thirty-two innocent people who died at Virginia Tech today. To assume that American citizens have no need for firearms is to assume that our government will always be ready, willing, and able to protect us. It is to assume that there will never be a time, however brief or long, be it from natural disaster, manmade disaster, or government disruption, where we will need to protect and/or provide for ourselves. Today there are at least thirty-two families who know firsthand that the American government cannot and will not always be there to protect us. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.