bart

The whole Idea Chuck was not to create an Idea where the student just turns on the beeps. Thats not the way we brief or train our students. When I first started I was trained on a radio, and back then on the S/L table I had no altimeter. I think the second 10 second delay was used to introduce instruments. By that stage I was well and truly landing on my own and never used an altimeter under canopy. The voice in my ear was able to correct me when going in the wrong place and that left me able to scan for traffic and be more aware under canopy, more importantly it allowed me to understand canopy flight visually. Which is the most important thing so I'm glad we agree on something!! Here we have no TA, we have no radios, our student spend a considerable amount of time being trained to understand how to fly there canopy. Much more than I ever was. The trouble is how does someone who has never been up in the air know when they should leave there holding area, when they should be doing there final turn etc. How do they know what 1000 feet looks like or 500 or 300?? What happens is they just start looking at there altimeter and we needed to take that focus away. What we want is for them to learn were they should fly visually. The audible just gives them some information to help train there eyes. It gives them Information about how high they are without them looking at there alti. Its as simple as that. Thats the way we approach it here rather than turn turn turn, that would be stupid. I know after they have finished the AFF program I can take the audible off them and they would fly there pattern the same as with it because they have had the oportunity to learn what different heights look like. The device actually allows them to be more aware under canopy judging the winds and flying visually looking out for traffic. While still receiving information about there height and decent rate audibly. We have found its adds to the training rather than being a distraction. All our students receive debriefing and briefing for all the canopy flights and we have noticed that we are correcting the way they are flying less than we were without it.

This was definately a big concern for us when we implemented the program. However no one has had any problems reading the digital, Im not saying this will never be the case but It hasn't happened. We are able to replay a jump for them so they can drill on the ground reading the instrument. As far as the reference points go I don't think there is ever need for any student to ever fly past the back of the landing area, and thats how we brief our students.

There has been some discussion on another threads about the use off audibles for students, I would also like to expand that to some discussion also on the use of digital altimeters as well. Recently the DZ that I have been training AFF at has introduced them. Along with Digital Altimeters. The focus of this change was parachute control and not free fall. This season in about a 4 month period we have had 149 students through the door 113 of them finishing the AFF course. So where pretty busy. Where we are we have no TA. Its how its done here, and I would like to add they spend a good deal of the coure focusing on parachute control!! However I must say that when I first started here a few years ago it scared me to death!! but actually it works quite well. However students do become focused on there altimeter in the landing pattern, for there 900, 600, 300 and this is not such a great thing with an analog alti which is hard to read and inacurrate under 1000 feet anyway. This year read an article about the use of audibles under canopy for students. After much discussion between instructors, we applied to the Federation for approval which was granted. We then used the system both Digital altimeters and Audibles with our last 2 groups of students, which was 22 students. All our fears so far have been unfounded in fact we are struggling to find any negatives that have come out of the change. No one young or old has had trouble reading the Altimeter in Free fall or under canopy, or been confused by the audible. With the back up of a digital altimeter at a glance its easy for the students to see the beeps are coming at the exact hight they are suppose to turn. This then allows them to focus on the landing visually. Which is how they should be doing it. Its not about relying on the device but rather using a tool that helps the student to learn the visual ques. There has been an amazing improvment in the speed at which these guys are learning parachute control. It's still early days, but as I said the results have been awesome. As for free fall the audible is set at the hard deck, which means they should never here it!!! If they do then they now they need to open immediately no matter there body position. The federation made this a stipulation and I agree I think that Its important for student to read there altimeter before begining to rely on other devices. I would defineatly encourage other schools to have a look at the concept. As I said its early days but our results are very encouraging. Have any other instructors out there been using digital altimeters and or audibles for AFF student? What was the motivation for using these devices? Has anyone had any negative out comes due to the use of this equipment? What are the positives that have been observed from the use of this equipment? blue ones bart

For me it's defineatly a question of lifting the knees first and then pushing the feet foward if they can. But I don't get them to extend there legs all the way out, not more than 45 degrees past hanging straight down. I don't think there is any need, it's more important to me to make the passenger understand not to put any weight on there feet unless told to stand up. I preffer to stand up my landings, and with the legs straight outs its difficult to do anything else other than a slide in bum landing. And its easier for the passenger!! I think is really important to make the passenger understand that when there feet contact the ground they must let there feet slide out in front of them (not to slide underneath there body or put any weight on them unless told to "stand up". This way even if there feet touch before yours they just let them slide out in front. Then once you have washed off the foward speed you just tell them to stand up, or say nothing and continue to slide in on ya ass!!! Also if you Combine this with the instructor leaning back in the harness, thus pointing the passengers knees above the horizon its even easier. I'm not tall and this allows me to stand up most of my landings. I'm not a fan of them grabbing the harness to lift there legs, had a passenger yesterday put his thumb through my reserve handle on a micro sigma, Just because I did a turn and obviously felt a little insecure!! those sort of moments can be pretty intense!!

Heres Lene exiting for her stage 7 grad jump in Norway!!

Now where did I say that?. Nothing better than a good argument. But good to see you catching on!!. Yeah but one or two of your facts weren't exactly accurate, were they?. And your opinion, while valid for you, didn't seem to convince a few of the doubters on here to change their POV. You seemed to be digging a bit of a hole for yourself, thats all. We weren't attacking Australia here, which your defensive reaction seemed to suggest. We questioned the wisdom of this particular event, and the wisdom of the TM involved. Knowing the guy a lot better than you gave me good reason to comment. The gung ho attitude is fine in its place, but putting another person at risk is most definitely not. And that was the concept you seemed to have difficulty grasping. Anyway, as you correctly point out, its good to have differences of opinion, because in the case of skydiving in particular, its what has caused the sport to continue to evolve...All ideas are valid, but some turn out good, some not so good. There might be a place for tandem wingsuiting in the future, but I don't think this particular episode was handled very cleverly. Anyway, cheers, let us know the result of the DOS's investigation. The Last post was just really a bit of fun, sorry for the late reply just been a bit busy, its nice to be actually working with all this rain and shit weather we have been having. This whole thread has caused some amazing conversation both passionate and in my opinion emotional. While passionate is good, the emotional doesn't add to the wieght of any arguement!! I dont believe I dug any whole for myself, my initial opinions remain the same and as I said I never wanted to convince anyone. I just wanted everyone to know the facts first rather than guessing and there was alot of that going on. As I said opinions are opinions all are valid. I'm use to mine not being accepted by the majority, ha ha ha I was only incorrect with one thing. Approval was gained from the Director of instructors not the director of safety which I appologised for. And corrected when pointed out. Everything else I have checked from more than one source. I might be a little 'out there' but not silly, I hope

So what your saying is I should never have argued with you obelixtim... I agree!!, in fact its probably the most intelligent comment you have made about yourself... well done dude. My whole perpose was just to let everyone know the complete facts which I think I did. I really dont care what conclusion you or anyone else draws out of this, I made mine!! Opinions are just opinions, I'll never begrudge someone from having a different one to mine, It's what makes the world go round!!!

My appologies, it was the Director of instructors, not director of safety, my bad.

Not even the wingsuits? The wingsuits change the application but not really the function. Can you actually think of something relating to the gear, that applies to the tandem that cant apply to a single wingsuiter. Please let us all know. Remember its a sigma.

after about 10 years of Tandem jumping, Ive jumped strong, eclipse, atom, vector 2 and sigma, Ive finally bought my own rig, not that I can use it down under!! Companies long ago down here saw the advantage of owning all the gear!! Never thought I would get excited about a tandem rig, but if nothing more than the knowledge of the work its done and will do, not to mention the extra cash it will make!! But also just because I get to jump the exact gear I want to jump!! So what did I get... a micro sigma, Just for the opening sequence alone, no three ring bridle attachment the only rig where the opening of the container and the drouge release are the same thing, virtually eliminating drouge in tows, quicker packing super comfortable (although that racer looks comfortable!). I dont see any other choice, and a 300 NZ jyro tandem... what else would you buy?

Quote*** I think thats what we've been asking for....facts. Can you provide some, or are you just going to keep up the repetative hyperbole about how good Brett is, and how no one seems (in your opinion anyway) to have the right to question the wisdom of this jump.*** There is no hyperbole about brett, aside from the initial experience saying that if anyone could do it I believe he can... thats it. I think your just showing your dislike for him now. The Facts are all out here atleast I can see them; 1.The instructor was an experienced TM and wingsuit pilot. 2.The passenger while not a skydiver was an experienced tandem passenger with 15 previous tandems. While not making her a, licenced skydiver... surely not worthless either. 3.The passenger was aware of the risks. Her partner is an experienced instructor and BMI instructor. While this may not seem like a big deal, the fact is she was not some jane off the street going to do a "tandem wingsuit". No one here would seriously advocate commercial tandem wingsuiting its not what this is about. And also it shows she does know something about the sport. 4.She was appropriately trained and briefed for the jump. 5. The jump was approved by the director of safety. Well thats about it for me, sorry if it doesnt tick all ya boxes, maybe im the only one... but I can live with that.

There is a big difference between 15 tandems and 15 AFF style jumps. You can believe what you want. She has been a PASSENGER for those 15 jumps. Not the same as a trained and qualified A license holder in any country. IF she is ready for an A. Well just give her a rig and throw her out of the plane. She will be fine. I mean...she did do 15 tandems right. I never intended to compare 15 tandems with solo training as far as free fall skills. The fact is that the girl is an experienced passenger and can follow direction. As from the photos she did just that. Brett made an interesting point about this to me, Ive already written it twice I'm sure you can find it. Give it time. If he keeps this up. He will kill someone. I love you Aussies. I really do. Great guys and gals. But this dude is a turd. This really was a one off. Would they do it again under similar circumstances, maybe, maybe not who knows. But to lable someone a Turd without knowing them to me is a little stupid. Maybe you actually know the guy and think hes a turd but really man thats a bit much.

Her Boyfriend is a wingsuit instructor, while she doesnt jump she has been around the sport for some time and has the right people in her corner for information and support. So again I have to disagree. She actually asked alot of questions about the jump. Enough to impress those involved. It seems you have a very negative slant on whatever brett may do. Before you make some of these comments I believe it would be fair to get some more facts. But it seems you have already made up your mind. Whatever bad blood is there between you too, you need to look at every event without predudice which doesnt seem to be happening here. You were not there when the jump was decided upon and approved by the director of safety. You should be proud of your students accomplishments.

Quote It might not be so bad if all involved were willing to admit that it was nothing more than that. Not a 'safe' wingsuit jump with a paying customer, but a stunt with a passenger who had made a large number of tandems. The fact is that you simply cannot do a wingsuit tandem jump with the same level of safety you can provide on a standard tandem jump, even with an experienced wingsuiter as the passenger. The testing simply has not been done, and the risks are not known. Which will never be know unless someone does the jump? The fact is provided that everyone knows and appriciates the risk then I dont see the problem. The jump was also cleared by the director of safety in Australia before they did the descent. Brett made an interesting point that as a passenger and an experienced one, the girl did exactly what was asked of her and no more. Would it have been easier or more difficult to have an experienced wingsuiter on the front trying to fly the pair rather than just passively adopting the position she was asked to do. Which if you look at the photos was exactly what she did. ***I supposed this is as good a time as any to ask, but what was the relationship between the TI and the passenger? Guys have done dumber things to get laid, or continue getting laid, and seeing as the passenger was a felmale, it seems like a reasonable question. Sorry to burst that bubble. Brett is as I can tell is a happily married dude with 3 kids. The passenger while female is actually the partner of a BMI instructor who was at a boogie and on the jump himself. Whilst not a skydiver she has been around the sport for some time and done alot of tandems. So no motives in that area.

Your all just proving the point that this TI has EGO issues. He thinks he is the best and so he must be bullet proof. ***I have been in this sport for a long time and have met and been lucky enough to call some of the (truly) best skydivers in the word my friends. None of them would ever put a student in unnecessary risk like your Sky God Brett seems to be willing to do. Again thats not what Im saying at all. Its not about Brett really although I believe hes capable of the jump. Considering all the circumstances like his experience and the experience of the tandem, mainly her 15 previous tandems, enough time in free fall if they were solo to qualify for an A licence down here!! bla bla bla. And Im quite sure in fact positive that there are others out there that are capable of doing it if fact probably capable of doing things that might make me gasp with anger. ha ha ha . The thing is I just find it funny those that know nothing about the person or the jump like yourself want to hang him the most. And again your forgeting one thing, nothing went wrong!! and you are within your rights to believe what ever you like mate. But I dont think they got lucky. If you want to you can believe that thats your choice. In all truth I think you need to cheer up abit mate!!

Ahh, the good old "too good to go in" argument. No Dude thats not what I'm saying at all. Patrick had sewn his lines of his main to his container, Piras was knocked unconsious, and yes sure there was the famous dont need to turn the cypress on thing, Rob Harris while I'm not sure of the exact details as there hard to come by, was filming a stunt where they did some mods on the gear. I really dont think this one comes into those categories. Yes Yes but hes complacent and not thinking thats what you'll say, irresponsible, bla bla, sorry mate don't see it in this case and dont think its a good comparison. And nobodys above going in at the wrong moment its something everyone is capable of. Perhaps and I do say perhaps not defineatly by maintaining this thought, the jump went well, because believe it or not it actually did, fancy that!!. The trouble with most of the statements in here they center around the attitude of the person doing the jump and nobody but him can say really what that was. Me included!! As I said just dont think this qualifies but your entitled to believe whatever you wish. But thats not what I said

Its seems you may have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion. And before someone chimes in and tells me that I havent been around or seen the shit go bad, think again!! I have!! We are all human and there is risk in everything we do. As we become more profficient in different forms of the sport, we as a group will always expand the envelope. Whether that be inventing new disiplines or combining others. Whether in be new regular activities, or performing one offs like this one. Theres no point in any of us quoting our experience or how many jumps we have its all in the left hand column. The fact is most people posting have alot of time in the sport, so do I. No matter what anyone posts I'll stick to my origional post. And yes bro I think I do know brett, alot more than you think and maybe alittle better than you? The thing is no matter what you write niether of us will be able to prove that one either way. It does however seem to be some personal dislike in your statement. I'll say it again...It didnt go wrong in fact it went very well. Thats one thing no matter what anyone writes will ever change. Whether everyone likes it or not!! You can claim it was luck all you want, I dont believe that myself. And no matter what I say I know I will not convince the hard liners in here, nor will any amount of there crying convince me. Remember there is no fact in here just opinions and remember opinions are just like assholes... everyone has one!!

Funny enough at the funny farm in Australia has seen some tandem swooping too. Funnier again by the same guy everone is whinging about in here, the footage I saw had Jon King on the front, NZ aerosports test jumper. It was on a TFX285 so little more than dirt water dirt and I must say was executed beautifully. Knowing the TM in this case and the circumstances involved I think we have little trouble with this becoming a commecial thing. If not just for the fact that there just is not enough and probably never will be enough people with the skill, experience and want to do this sort of stuff. Time will tell of course. I must say we seem to be forgeting that the outcomes were not bad at all. No body did get hurt, they were stable through out free fall. If fact it was executed very well. (alot more than I can say about some other tandem wingsuits I have seen!!) The fact is and no one seems to want to admit it but the success was a testement to the skill and experience of the instructor involved. I know the man and have spent years working with him. Not only a highly skilled and experienced tandem master AFF instructor and wingsuit flyer and swooper, but an excellent rigger aswell!! the Tandem passenger had 16 tandems. It was not her first time!! Whether you like to believe it or not, he didnt get lucky!! It really is unfair to accuse someone of being reckless when you dont really know the circumstances or the thought that went into it. Im not saying that everyone should do these things at all, far from it. But the fact is people will come along in our sport and do stuff, the rest of us just dont think possible safely. Everyone sees the world from our own eyes, which is cool but just remember others see it with there own too. What does this mean, if something is beyond you you see it as unsafe. It doesnt mean its beyond someone else. Its really simple. As far as litigation goes, it aint the states, THANK GOD. Our waiver in Australia has actually stood up in court meaning if you sign them then there is no payout!! If your from the USA you might want to consider that if you want to jump down here. That actually occured in a student case nearly 10 years ago!! I find it funny that even though it was done safely, and the passenger had a great experience that some muppet would still sue the Tandem instructor, WTF are you serious. That attitude really hasn't helped anyone in society at all. I just think its time you gave the guy a break. His ego isnt that big if it was he'd be on here giving his opinion like the rest of us!!

Haven't you heard bro, Strong rymes with wrong!!! If you ever got a strong rating and didnt hand it back immediately upon jumping any other piece of tandem equiptment then you definately have rocks in your head

Agreed, well said!!

I agree. I have not jumped the 285 but would love to give it a go. However I have some experience on the 300's and if given the choice I would not fly anything bigger. The 330's are an awesome canopy too. Most DZ down here seem to run them with tandem pilots I know up to 110+ kg. and everyone loves them. I actually dont see any reason to go any bigger. All our new tandem pilots at our company jump them with no problem. I'm only 70 kg so not the biggest tandem master out there. But I have jumped the 300 with up to 110kg and they still have plenty of flare!! Single or double toggle set up they still have one of the lightest toggle pressures out there. To me for the smaller tandem pilot is the best canopy on the market. And I would only buy the NZ one.

What does this mean ...cant delete e-mails...piling up need help!