NewClearSports

I didn't know what camber was untill I read this post, but now that I understand it I would have to say ... YES - Pulling either the front or rear riser would definetly change the camber. This is one of the thing I find very interesting about a canopy vs a rigid wing. Our airofoils in certain ways are more complicated then a plane wing and in a sence closer to that of a birds wing which is what man was trying to replicate for decades. I'm going to open a new discussion on flight controls where we can all brainstorm on how many different things we can do to manipulate are wings and their results. Hope to chat with you there.

If I could get a set of Velocity Sports risers with RWS toggles with the pin and the dive loops like I like them, then that would be the ultimate set of risers for me. Are there any riggers that design custom risers like this? If so can I get an e-mail or contact info ? Thanks

I'm in the process of building a Swoop only Rig. The container is Javalin. The Main is a JVX Hybrid. I'm not using a RDS now, but plan to in the future. I need to order a custom set of risers any input, suggestions would be appreciated!! My Questions are Ideal Length, Best style Dive Loop or Ledges, Steel or Plastic Hard Housings, Best or Best Value Rigger to order from & Contact info? Also very important to me is to have an excellent toggle stow, as my only 2 ever mals have been popped toggle. Thanks for your help!

Hey, I just joined the CPC this year and got some good advise from various people. The two things that seemed to make the biggest difference in my swoops were 1. to get the optima with the swoop guide tone so I can be consistent in my initiation altitude, and 2. to HUCK the last 90 deg. of my 270's. This 2nd little tidbit of information blew me away because it really worked, and for some reason the word HUCK seemed fairly self explanatory. I didn't need to get involved in a complex conversation about Powerband's, technique, riser inputs, ect. I just HUCKED it, and it worked. Brilliant! So is there any other cool swoop lingo out there that I should know about? Please share. This stuff is great!

Hey, just want some opinions of the best swooping videos out there. I'm going to order a couple and want to make sure I'm picking the right ones. Thanks

You need to get worse for a while, then you will get better - not kidding. If you read Brian Germains Parachute and it's Pilot book there is a section that explains our learning curves. When you take in new informaition to learn new teckniques and go to apply them you will find your performance will decrease because it is something new to you and you have to take the time to relearn a different way of doing things. But what happens is people don't want to get worse before they get better - they just want to get better - this will cause you to plateu because even though you think you despritely want to get better, you won't let go of the current programed techeniques that you are using now to give you your currenty performance. Get what I'm saying ?? Don't worry we all do it. So what are you waiting for - go out there - have some sucky swoops, look like an idiot infront of the spectators, eat some dirt and before you know it you will break that plateu !!

Hey, Just wanted to brag about friends from my home DZ. Skydive Burnaby located in Wainfleet Canada. This past weekend on July 31st, we had Curtis flying a 40 sq/Ft Comp Cobalt have a sucessful dock (Caught on Video) on the back of a Sam flying wingsuit. It was just awsome to watch. The intentional cutaways of the 40 sq/ft Cobalt were very cool to watch too. I don't know how common this is with the large US DZ's, but I wouldn't be surprized if this was the 1st time it was done in Canada. Anybody know of it being done in Canada before this?

My 2 Cents. as per "Squeezing out every last bit of performance?" 1st you need to know your canopy, each one has different caractoristics. For example your canopy has a Positive Recovery Arc. It is important for you to understand this when you are learning to swoop. Basicly when you increase your air speed (ie put it in a dive) your canopy produces more lift due to the extra air speed, so when you release your controls your canopy will actually climb, and the more speed you create the more it will climb. So reguarding "Squeezing out every last bit of performance?" your best landing should occur when you let up the last bit of front riser just at the right time so as you swoop across the ground with no brake input at all, untill your air speed drops below normal flight, at this time you would gradualy add brake input untill your swoop is complete. Now this is much harder then it sounds reguardless of the turn you do (ie 90, 180, 270) But a very important thing to remember. Your front risers are a VARIABLE INPUT. You can give a Little or A LOT, and everything in between. To max out your swoop you must remember NOT to just RELEASE your fronts at the last second, but to slowly let up on them untill you learn to perfectly dial in those last few degrees onto final. When you get advise for swooping try to get it from someone that flies a similar canopy or someone that has flown a canopy like your in the past. Many swoopers will give you great advise if you were flying the same X-braced, negitive recovery arc swoop machines they are, but it will not give you the same outcome one your Sabre 2. Good Luck, Long Swoops, Live long.

I also had this happen to me when flying head down. I do not fault my Wings Container as my freefly partner that was just learning head down at the time and I only jumped with once before gripped the top of my rig and pulled the flap open as well as much of my risers out. At about 6000 ft I noticed my toggle bouncing off my foot, I broke off, slowed down went to my belly and dumped. It opened into a wild spin (Cobalt 95 2:1 WL) and without hesitation I cut away (My 1 and only cutaway 600+ jumps at that time) I was under my reserve at 4500 ft. I was able to follow my main, but the freebag took 2 more days to find. My lesson learned, I now tell people to NOT grip my container, but rather my suit. I also started pushing my risers way down to the very bottom of the flaps after that incedent, but DON'T DO THIS! I then had frequent line twists because of the risers catching the corners of the reserve on deployment. If you have a good container, then all you have to do is have people keep their hands off it and you will be fine. Also a good idea to check your flaps before you exit along with your pin check!

Hey I know the answer to this, I just finished Brian Germain's Canopy Course last week. Pulling on your Front Risers under normal flight will not cause your nose to fold under unless you somehow pulled so far as to have the relative wind hit the top of the canopy (not very likely) or you did something to loose your line tension (More likely). Actually we completely loose our line tension and colapse our canopy on every jump, but luckily it only happens when our feet touch the ground and our weight is then supported by the ground. At this time we don't care that our canopy folded over. So to keep this simple, keeping your lines tight is the most important thing, feeling positive G's in your harness is a good thing, feeling light in your harness is a bad thing. So the next time your flying your canopy pay attention to what manuvers cause you to feel heavy and what cause you to feel light. In turbulance stick with moves that make you feel heavy. P.S If you can't attend Brian's course, at least buy his book, it is in my opinion a must have for every skydiver!

Hey Guys and Girls Who can tell me the real story between Icarus and Precision. At my DZ everyone loves Icarus and hates Precision. I fly a Xaos and I love it. The 1st thing that always comes up is the original Crossfire. Apparently the only ones needing the recall were built by Precision? Is this true? Why does Precision build Icarus' Canopys in the 1st place? The 2nd thing is when you go to the Precision Web Site you will read again and again "When we built the Extreme FX and VX" Did Precision make and design the original FX and VX and then sell it to Icarus or did Icuras design it and hired Precision to simply do the cutting and sewing? The only thing I know for sure is my Xaos opens better then any Icarus Canopy, well actually better then any canopy I have ever jumped, and it flies like a dream. Just curious to find out the real story Thanks

I load mine at 2.2 and like it. If I were to change my loading to what I would think would be ideal I think 1.9 would be about perfect. The reason I say this is at the very end of the swoop I sometime wish I had just a little more lift to pop it up. I don't like running out my landings. Maybe the 27 would be better for this. I also just recently started using my rear risers and wow, this canopy flies great on rears. All in all a really great flying machine!!

I just had to let anyone know who is thinking of buying a Xaos, that you won't be dissapointed. After flying a Velocity I switched to the Xoas 21 and love it. Loaded 2.1 The openings are the best of any canopy I have ever jumped. It is fast as hell, swoops long and it has lots of lift. Front riser pressure is much less then the Velocity which in my opinion makes it easier to dial in. You let up when you want to, not when they get riped out of your hands. It does however have a large pack volume, My new 88 packs bigger then my 96 Velocity did. And I don't care what anyone says I love the HMA lines. They wistle like crazy when carving out that final 270. Everyone knows your coming in. Great Great Canopy!!

I did not know where best to put this so feel free to move it. It is not a skydiving related death. I just found out at 9:00am this morning that a good friend JAMES HENDRY took his own life last Thursday January 22nd, 04. The Viewing is Today untill 9:00pm. My family and I went to pay our respect earlier. The Funeral is Tomorrow Tues, Jan 27th, 04 All I can keep thinking is I'm so very sorry I wasn't there to help you James. James Hendry was a regular jumper at Skydive Burnaby. He was an amazing guy, made everyone feel welcome. He was a great Camera Flyer, Swooper, Coach, and was going to represent Canada in Style and Accuracy in 04. Blue Skies Forever James..

Everybody in this forum knows that posts like this always get the same response. If you can't take the crap, don't bring up these subjects. I'm jumping a 2-1 loaded fx at 500 jumps, and I can do everything on the task list, but you are not going to hear me trying to justify it on this forum. I didn't know it. My 270 post was the 1st and I got some good ideas out of it. All I wanted was to here various opinions on downsizing. I should not have done the bike analogy, it just made it a much more personal issue toward me, I didn't want that. I just can't believe that out of all the jumpers here no one has anything good to say about downsizing. So why is it we are all not still jumping are student manta's? Anyway sorry for stirring this whole thing up - From now on I will stick to getting advise from my friends and people that know me. Cheers, blue skies

Guy who started this thread again -Can you land in a 10 meter target circle reliably? >YES -Can you land crosswind and in no wind? >YES I prefer Crosswind anyway – longer swoops. -Can you land on uphill/downhill slopes? >YES -Can you initiate a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet and land safely? >YES I use the flat turn often, as Andyman says the Power comes on in the turns. If I decide to abort a swoop (which I do often) because of traffic or any other reason I go to the flat turn. -Can you turn 45 degrees during the flare and land standing up? >NO There is one guy at our DZ that does this regularly, carve out his landings, he is amazing – I admit I need more practice for this one -Can you land with rear risers? >YES I don’t yet use the technique for longer swoops, but I can land on rears if necessary. -Can you make a double front riser/turning front riser approach? >YES all my swoops are carved with front risers and harness turns, I never hook it or toggle whip it, I believe that to be too dangerous. Andyman I think if your bikes automatically opened the throttle wide open each time you threw yourself into a corner, you would have a better understanding of why adding "power" under a canopy is so much riskier then adding "power" on a bike. On your bike, using that power is optional. Under a canopy, that "power" can come on when you least want it. >I agree 100% - I think everyone must know this and understand it before ever downsizing. I hope that anyone thinking of downsizing knows that turning adds speed, power, and most importantly decent. Treejumps Why bother posting and asking questions since you already know everything. >I never claimed to know everything – I started a discussion to learn more, through a thought out there and get various opinions. SkymonkeyOne I have regularly jumped canopies as small as 65 square feet, but found out that after a certain point you just reach a point of diminishing returns. I gave back the 65, ended up giving back a 75, then settled on a 79, though I am sure I would get better competition results under an 84. The point here is that while smaller might be faster, it's certainly not "better" if you are not able to get the desired performance out of it. > OK – HERE IT IS – This is what I am talking about. SkymonkeyOne WHY DID YOU EVER BOTHER TO JUMP A 65 and 75 ??? You are saying right here that the 84 is probably the one for you. Jumping a 65 and 75 must have in some small way help you to dial in your current 79? And why now that your settled on the 79 do you believe that an 84 will get you better competition results? All I am saying is that I believe that when you flew that 65 and 75 that it helped you develop or Sharpened new skills that you can apply to your 79. Packerboy Maybe you will look sharp to the untrained eye when you come in under a puny canopy. However, I guarantee you that your fellow experienced jumpers at your small dropzone talk behind your back about how you will become the next incident report. > I sure hope not. I hope that if anyone from my local DZ thinks I’m flying recklessly or unsafely that they come and tell me right away. I think it is so important to talk to someone if they have done something stupid or unsafe before they even hit the packing area. I know I have been spoken to and I have also spoken to others. Jsaxton So what do you thing is a better measure of when to downsize, years or jumps? My point is that currency can also be a factor in deciding when it is safe to downsize. > Years – has no bearing. Jump numbers seems to be the norm, but it is not a very good way to decide in my opinion, Currency one of the most important, and Skill level also very important. I’m sorry I put my bike analogy in years, I just didn’t know how else to say it. Spizzzarko This whole thing sounds like someone just trying to get attention. This dude has already made his decision to fly something probably out of his league. This should all be referenced when we read his sad saga of recovery in the incidents forum. So bad on me for feeding this troll. > This is the type of guy that gets under my skin – You just mention downsizing and he gets all worked up, like it’s the worst thing in the world to do. Even though we all do it, we all preach that it shouldn’t be done. There is one thing true about this that I did try to get attention with my “Downsizing keeps you sharp” quote. I knew that this would grab attention and I wanted to here several opinions on the topic of downsizing. Murps2000 You guys in Salisbury saw me doing several 360 approaches last year on the Splatwing 134. More than a few people told me I was ready to downsize. > Why 360s ?? How does this help to hone your skills? How does a 360 fit into a good traffic pattern? I hate it when people spiral down and don’t fly the pattern just to get down sooner and then end up landing the same time as me. This brings me to my point – people that are bored under canopy fly stupid, they sashay around, spiral over the spectator area, do quick 360,s and basically just make it harder for me (The HP Pilot) to find a safe landing pattern. I sometime wish these jumpers with the big canopies playing stupidly over the landing area could take a ride under my canopy to understand why it is important to fly predictably, have a plan, and follow the landing pattern. Usually when people 1st downsize they go back to these basic principals. And as for the originator of this thread, I don't know you, and I've never seen you jump, so I'm in no position to question your expertise under your Velo. Maybe you've devoted every shred of your time jumping to canopy flight, maybe you're blessed with a high degree of innate talent for swooping, and maybe you're very advanced for your jump numbers. But if I'm not mistaken, you're also the same guy who was inquiring about how to properly set up for 270 approaches in another thread. My suggestion would be to get back on your heatwave and figure it out. > I have my 270’s pretty much dialled in. If you read the 270 discussions it came from a debate about the set up for a 270 with a left hand pattern at my local DZ. Weather Right or Left 270 is best? No I’m not an expert under my Velocity, but I did take a HP canopy control / Swoop course before every flying it. Whether people believe it or not, I am trying to be safe Yaric Unless I misunderstood his meaning he didn't say that it would contribute to safety. He did say that it would keep you sharp. I believe that they are not necessarily inclusive ideas. > This is true. I did not say it would be safer to downsize, but it does make you go back to basics, fly reliably, predictably, and follow a pattern which will in the long run make it safer for the others flying around you.

Hi, I'm the guy that started this thread. Let me explain why I think the way I do. Let me talk about a different sport for a minute. My Progression with Motorcycles. At 3 yrs I got a Honda Z50 At 5 yrs I got a Suzuki RM 80 (Huge jump) At 7 yrs I was riding my fathers RM 250. I couldn't even touch the ground, needed to start and stop in the ditch in front of my house. Not too many 7yr kids can ride a RM250 At 10 - 11 yrs I had a CR 125 From ages 12-16 I had the fastes Moto-X bike and ATV going. I think I got my 125 hp LT-500 when I was 14. At 15 I got my 1st Street Bike Honda VR 500, didn't ride it leagal untill I was 16 At 17 I got a Suzuki GSXR 750 (Another Big Jump) At 25 I got a Yamaha R1 Race Ready Superbike (I believe it to be about the fastest production bike ever) I am now 29 and have never had a serious injury or accident on any bike, I have never broken a bone (Knock on Wood). I am proud father and I recently sold my R1 because I found myself getting board of it. Every ride seemed to end up in being chased by the police and I know at 250 - 300kms/hr if I am getting board, its time to give it up. I felt I was indangering myself because I cought myself getting distracted too often. Also my love for skydiving is now greater then even motorcycles. Now the thing I don't agree with is that almost every skydiver says don't downsize untill you have utilized your current canopy to its full potential. Well of all those bikes I have driven over the years I think maybe 2 or 3 I kept long enough to ride to its full potential. (The Z-50 and CR-125 and maybe the GSXR) But here is the thing. Now with the experience I have I can take any motorcycle, of any size, with any amount of power and ride it to mine and its potential. I have driven bikes 200 hp and still wanted more out of it. So why is downsizing a canopy such a bad thing? I have been downsizing the last couple of years and have just fallen in love with canopy flight. I just dream about flying day after day. I can't wait to try a VX or Xaos. If I had the chance I would try a bunch of different canopys at various wing loadings and such. I'm sorry but I havn't found a canopy that I would be happy with for 500 or 1000 jumps. Even going back is sometime good for a change. It amazes me how I use to think my 135 heatwave was fast, but I go back to it after flying the Velocity 96 and it feels so docile. Now here is the thing you must also understand. When I get one of these little rockets I make sure I open high on several jumps, do many hop and pops, plan my landing before getting in the plane. I jump at a small DZ compared to many of you. I often jump out of the Cessna so I know there won't be any traffic. If I were at a large busy US DZ like many of you, I would probably do things differently. Anyway, again everyone is different. For me change helps me learn. I think change is good.

Ok, I know this statement will offend and upset many people and I'm really not trying to give the wrong message but I have to say what I believe. I want to here everybodys opinion on this, and I know most likely my opinion is the minority. I believe downsizing is good to prevent bordom. I believe bordom under canopy makes for poor decision making and the taking of un-nessesary risks. The right amount of downsizing within the right amount of jumps keeps you sharp and on your toes. It makes you respect the wing above your head. I know this to be true for me, but everyone is different. What do you all say out there??

For me to get good openings with mine I needed to push the nose deep into the centre of the packjob pull the slider out about an inch infront and roll the tail tight. I know this is not normal with most canopys (I would never even consider this with my Velocity) as it could cause off heading openings or a line over, but I never had any problems with my Cobalt. What I found amazing about the Cobalt is that even with a wing loading of over 2.0 I could always kick out of line twists. The front risor pressure was very light and I could dive it like mad. Even the 96 Velocity I have now doesn't dive like my 95 Cobalt did. However the openings, speed range, top horizontal speed of the Velocity are superior and all help it swoop like a bat out of hell. These are the main reasons I swiched, but the Cobalt was an amazing transistion canopy. I believe the Cobalt is the best 9 cell out there. Untill you are ready to go to X braced 21 or 27 cell you have made the right choice.

What about when the car is getting up to speed, accelerating - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car turns a corner - the fish is affected by that, what about if the car puts on its brakes, the fish is affected by that. Momentum is a large factor when one moving mass is contained by another moving mass. Even the fish has an effect on the car. If this fish on the dash weighed a few tons and got scared all of a sudden and started swimming sideways it might knock the car off the road.

You must have jumped it by now. What did you think? Did you like the openings?

I like your analigy with the streem, because this is what I am wondering. If you dive into the stream at a 45 deg angle head 1st up-stream you will most certainly hit the bottom faster then if you dive 45 deg head 1st downstream. The fact that you have a surface to deflect the water and that you have momentum (A forward speed) means you will get different results when doing the same manuver up-stream or down-stream. Yes ??? Therefor I think when the canopy is diving at a 45 - 80 deg angle at 50 mph (The canopy's speed) that you will get different rates of desent wether going with the 7 mph wind (Flow) or against it. Anyone else know the answer to this? We need a physics major here!!

I must clarify - Dave Brown and Mike Swanson gave me much good advise after I did a very snappy (And low) steep 180 dive - I pulled out just in time to save my legs - I thought it was a cool landing, I wasn't hurt, I knew people were holding their breath during that one, but I did not know that had I got on the toggles only 1 second later I would have been severly injured or dead. They did not tell me not to do 180's but to stop with the dangerous behavior - that what I was doing has hurt alot of people (They did not say I would become a fatality, but they did say that many people have died form doing the same sort of things) I condensed I long conversation into this statement. Well since then I have taken a swooping course and now perfer the carving 270 and I'm just gratfull that I didn't stay on the 180 hook program. You are right that the 90, 180, 270, 360, 720 deg is not what kills it is the decision making, turning low, diving steep, pushing the edge that does. I just think people should know that their are safer ways to have a good swoop then to hook it 180.

What concerns me is that 180's get blown-off way before they are mastered and that some/ too many people have learned the painful way how tricky they really are! Which leads me to theorize that there are quite a few pilots flying, " long-carving" 270's because they believe they are safer than 180's.... or something? I do believe that "Long Carving" 270's are safer then 180s just from what I have watched every weekend at our dz and what I have seen at all the dz's I'v visited. As a spectator I watch the great 180 swoopers set up overhead and inisiate their steep hook- pointing their canopys straight at the ground - I hold my breath - they pull out at the last second to get this blazing swoop across the grass. Wow! They are exciting to watch - and the excitement is in the dive more then the swoop. The students watch this too - they want to be like Mr. 180 hookturn. They want to learn how to make people hold their breath when they land. As a spectator I watch the great 270 swoopers set up overhead and inisiate their carve - the speed steadily increases - you can here the wistling of their linesets cut through the air - they come through the gates still leaning in the harness, the canopy still sideways but leveling out - everything is in control, the swoop is not steep but keeps going and going from one end of the pond to the other and they still have enough to pop it up at the end. Everyone is impressed, the students all know they are many 100's of jumps away from ever flying like this. Mr 180 hook thinks he is just as good. He is on the next load. Mr. 180 hook's adrenalin is pumping, he flies over the pond, everyone is watching, they are all directly below him, he hooks it hard, diving steep, feels its time to let up - still coming in steep 45 deg, get on the toggles - oops too late - bounces off the pond at 50 mph - slams the shoreline, skids across, taking out a camera guy. Stands up and puts his hands in the air - Yea!! Some people cheer - some people shake their heads. These are just my observations.

Sorry you are both Right!! What I shoud have said in place of "Maintain Alt" is "Hold" I like to hold in 3/4 brakes to get to my set up spot at the right altitude. When going into the wind I can apply more break and let my canopy sink to get lower, or let up (Speed up) and get to my spot sooner to have more altitude. When going down wind setting up with 3/4 brakes or full flight doesn't seem to make much difference when you get to your spot - Its like you have to take what you got once you are there. Anyway I hope this makes sense - Sorry for being a dumbass!! Is there anyway I can correct that - It was a dumb statement. Thanks