likearock

It's not just the press. Take a look at the link in post #22. I'd say that Toyota has been operating in bad faith for some time now and it's caught up with them. Clearly, you don't think they've done anything wrong. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I see a distinction between taking money from fellow skydivers on a dropzone and getting compensated from one of the richest corporations in the world. Especially when the actions/inactions of said corporation lead to a material devaluation of my car. YMMV. I'm sure if they send you a check, you can always send it back.

I'm happy with my mini cooper. I do have friends with Toyotas though and it seems like a raw deal that they're getting. OTOH, if you're not concerned about resale value and plan on keeping the car, it might be nice to pick up those class action $s. I'd say you deserve it for all the crap that's gone down.

It's pretty much all of these things. There's clearly a political aspect to this. GM is gaining at the cost of Toyota, and it's not merely because TOY has a problem now. Take some minor design flaws on the user interface, couple possible underlying faults in the mechanical/electrical design, and then snowball in a bunch of lawyers and fraudsters, along with the media hungry for any story that isn't Health Care and you get this current storm. I don't know. I guess I have enough faith in capitalism to believe that something like this does not just happen to a company that "did everything right" (TM). I think Toyota played some role at least in getting themselves in this position. True, but these occurrences are going to lead to mandatory "black boxes" installed in cars same as airlines. An indelible digital record of all inputs and events can be made available in incidents like this.

Well, further on in the article, they say: So combined with the fact that none of the recalls have addressed electronic issues, what more are you looking for?

To be fair, I think he is saying that the U.S. government can't run anything right. Apparently, he feels that Costa Rica knows how to run a government. Or at least their government-run healthcare is run correctly. What!? So he thinks the rest of the world is better than the U.S.? But that's just like Obama, isn't it?

Besides the fact that none of the recalls involved any modifications to the ECM: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35776697/ns/business-autos/page/2/

Here's a pretty interesting timeline of the Toyota issues with Sudden Unintended Acceleration. It's a little hard to justify Toyota's claims that there's no trend indicated.

I'm sure that there are still a substantial number of Toyota's on the road that were manufactured in 2002 and earlier. Toyota is not just responsible for its latest models.

Yeah, of course people will come out of the woodwork to try to score on the situation. That doesn't automatically discount that the original problem was real however. The whole reason I posted this was that Toyota was so adamant that the acceleration had nothing to do with electronics. And yet, the service bulletin clearly states that there was an acceleration problem linked to electronics. So the dealerships got this bulletin, some did the adjustment, some didn't. It stands to reason that at least some of the consumer reports of unintended acceleration came from Camrys that were subject to the bulletin but just never got the adjustment. And that flatly contradicts Toyota's claim that electronics was not a causal factor.

Other then the media saying that Toyota hasn't given a "full account of what exactly is causing these issues" who is saying that Toyota isn't giving a full account (to the best of their knowledge...)? I don't need the media to tell me that something doesn't exist. If it exists, this full accounting as you say, then show it (post a link or doc).

So he prefers to get his healthcare from a single payer system? Didn't he just go on for months about how government run healthcare is a disaster?

Well, they considered it but also seemed to have rejected it fairly quickly. Whether that decision was based on a technical analysis or a cost/benefit analysis is an open question I'd say. No argument there. But then again, it's only Toyota that has ended up in this massive shitstorm. Why is that? Is it just bad luck? Prejudice against Japanese? Or is it just possible that the sequence of events (including what is described in the article above) is yet another object lesson of how the cover-up is always worse than the crime itself. Bill, I know you're an owner yourself. Doesn't it bother you how, even at this late stage, Toyota still refuses to give a full account of what exactly is causing these issues?

It sounds like the bulletin was sent to dealerships only to fix at their discretion. Is that SOP for a defect that is as critical as sudden acceleration? Shouldn't it be have been publicized a little more? I know if I had one of those models, I would have wanted to know about it. Beyond that, don't you think its interesting that when all the acceleration problems came out this year, Toyota refused to consider the possibility that any of the problems were electronics related. Considering how they soft pedaled an actual electronics issue leading to those same problems, I'd say their credibility is pretty shaky to say the least.

What about the substance of the article? The fact that Toyota knew that there was an electronics related cause to the acceleration problem for a significant number of its cars? Don't you think they had an obligation to fix it no matter what the cost?

Document: Toyota warned dealers of throttle surging in 2002 By Drew Griffin and David Fitzpatrick, CNN Special Investigations Unit March 23, 2010 6:25 a.m. EDT Boston, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Auto manufacturer Toyota warned dealerships in 2002 that Camry owners were complaining about throttles surging and recommended adjustments in an electronic control unit to fix the problem, according to a document obtained by CNN. The technical service bulletin went to every U.S. Toyota dealership in late August 2002 after some customers reported their vehicles were speeding up unexpectedly. "Some 2002 model year Camry vehicles may exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38-42 mph," the bulletin states. "The Engine Control Module (ECM) calibration has been revised to correct this condition." Read Toyota Service Bulletin Toyota, the world's largest automaker, has blamed acceleration surges on floor mats it says can trap accelerator pedals and recalled more than 2.3 million vehicles in January for sticky accelerator pedals. It has said that independent testing failed to find problems with its electronic throttle controls. But Clarence Ditlow, the head of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety, said the 2002 document doesn't talk about mechanical issues. "If you look at this document, it says electronics," Ditlow said. "It says the fix is reprogrammed in the computer. It doesn't say anything about floor mats." The internal Toyota document was given to CNN by a group of attorneys now seeking a nationwide class-action lawsuit against the company. Ditlow said the document -- not previously made public -- indicates Toyota knew much earlier about an electronic connection to sudden acceleration problems. He also said the bulletin was apparently ignored or hidden from the public not only by Toyota, but also by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Read National Highway Traffic Safety Administration memo "The government is really hiding this information from the consumer," Ditlow told CNN. "They're in a conspiracy with the auto industry to keep these out of the public's sight." The attorneys now suing Toyota say the repair bulletin is proof the car company knowingly lied to the public about the causes of sudden acceleration, blaming floor mats or stuck gas pedals instead. "They can fix these problems easily," said Tim Howard, a Northeastern University law professor who heads the legal group suing Toyota. "But it would cost them about $500 a car nationwide. If you have six [million] to seven million cars, you add the numbers -- it's between $4 [billion] and $5 billion. It's hard to actually tell the truth when those numbers are at the bottom of that truth." NHTSA did not respond to requests for comment. And Toyota did not respond to questions about the bulletin, but it issued a statement to CNN attacking Howard and his fellow lawyers. "Toyota strongly disputes these completely baseless allegations being driven by plaintiff's attorneys like Mr. Howard," the statement said. "Toyota intends to fight against these unfounded claims vigorously." Howard and his legal team say they plan to appear in federal court in San Diego, California, later this week, trying to persuade a federal judge to combine the 88 individual lawsuits so far filed against Toyota into a single class-action litigation.

You *were* answered - your inability to accept it isn't my problem. In which post (#) was it answered? #53: If you don't agree with it, you should discuss it with SPEAKER Pelosi or with MAJORITY LEADER Reid, not me. IOW: Since they both held those posts since 2007, the Dems controlled congress since then. I guess your definitions of "control" and "answer" are not the same as mine. Of course, you can "win" any argument if you dispute the definitions its component words. So what is your definition of "control"? In the Senate, having at minimum 51 senators from your party, or 50 + the VP. Anything less (the DEMS had 49 at the time in question here) and you have to rely on others, which means you don't have control. Simple, really. Wikipedia disagrees: The fact that the majority leader post switched hands to the Democrats indicated effective control.

You *were* answered - your inability to accept it isn't my problem. In which post (#) was it answered? #53: If you don't agree with it, you should discuss it with SPEAKER Pelosi or with MAJORITY LEADER Reid, not me. IOW: Since they both held those posts since 2007, the Dems controlled congress since then. I guess your definitions of "control" and "answer" are not the same as mine. Of course, you can "win" any argument if you dispute the definitions its component words. So what is your definition of "control"?

You *were* answered - your inability to accept it isn't my problem. In which post (#) was it answered? #53: If you don't agree with it, you should discuss it with SPEAKER Pelosi or with MAJORITY LEADER Reid, not me. IOW: Since they both held those posts since 2007, the Dems controlled congress since then.

Very interesting, if short, collection of work. Point Break, the New Order Substance Video, K-19. Blue Steele. May this Oscar give her more opportunity, more selectivity in the future. Let's not forget Strange Days, one of my favorites.

According to this, the Head Down video is volume 4 and is due out this year.

That's incorrect. He was specifically told not to try head down by the Eloy instructors but did it anyway. As a result, he broke both his arms.

And eliminate the ability of the commoners to use the courts to seek justice. Gotta agree here. There's no way John Q Citizen would ever go against a big corporation even if they had a solid case. The downside of paying off multi-million dollar lawyer fees would be too much.

Nice dodge. In a government ran health care plan, who is going to decide who gets the organ in your above scenario? Who does it in a privately run health care plan?

As someone else already said, it would be nice to see a little more hard data to go along with his conclusions. But even if we concede that some glaciers are increasing in size, how does that contradict the proponents of global warming? The science does not say that all parts of the globe will be uniformly warmed. Instead, it says that the effect will be for some portions to become abnormally warmer while others will become colder. But that sucks for people in those warmer regions who depend on glaciers for their drinking water.