cobaltdan

hi merrick, please demo a cobalt before deciding on a new canopy. i think you will be glad you did. sincerely, dan

it will make more sense after you let the idea sink in, watch a few people land and then try it up high. when i say level flight i was referring to level flight, parallel to the ground. you can feel the difference between full flight and level flight. this is much more pronounced on a small canopy, but none the less you can tell. try to be aware of your balance in full flight, then make a hard turn and let the canopy recover and slowly flare. you will feel yourself pitch back and then recover to neutral and then pitch up. you will also get input from the change in wind speed on your face or ears. kind of similar to learning to ride a bike. if you only relied on a visual indicator to determine if you are falling to a side you would never be able to ride, but by using your sence of balance it becomes an automatic reaction. when landing you use visual indications to determine your height, and this sence of balance gives you feedback to where you are in your recovery arc. dzbone asked if there is a way check if what you feel as level flight is realy level flight. well basically every time you land you get verification. the ground is the surest reference point. try your current landing technique and try to think about the balance thing while you do it. even large lightly loaded 9 cell canopies can swoop a bit. basically in full flight you are slightly pitched back (indicating a slight dive) when you flare the canopy it will pitch you to a neutral position and the canopy will fly level (swoop) for a short bit and if you continue to flare you will pitch forward, stopping your forward speed and level flight, stopping you or poping you up a bit. to sustain a swoop you can not continue to flare beyond that required to put the canopy into level flight. goes without saying, but: dont do anything down low unless you have practiced it high and are being safe. i am providing this info to encourage good awareness & technique, not to encourage beginers to try to swoop. sincerely, dan

i would like to explain a simple concept for canopy control as i think it would benefit some learning jumpers: on student gear most people are taught a 2 stage flare, when you transition to your first slightly smaller 9 cell zpo sport canopy, you may not have good luck with what you have been taught. flaring is not something you gauge with the position of your hands ! instead understand that you are suspended under your canopy, a weight on a string somewhat like a pendulum. you can tell what you are doing by > feel

the weather was poor this weekend and after 4 hop and pops we finally got altitude. about 3 people landed before me swooping the wooden fence at our dz. i had a low set up and rather than land to the back of the dz i swooped near the fence in the opposite direction. in flight i was aware of the position of other flyers but none the less, it was a mistake for me to go opposite the landing pattern set by the jumpers before me. i obviously, annoyed several jumpers, who came up to me and said not cool. i had no excuse to offer, only an apology for the poor judgment, being somewhat unaware of why i landed in that direction. i love canopy flying, equally if not more so than freefalling. to me canopy flying and skydiving are completely separate disciplines. i am loading 2.4 on my canopy and i am very focused on practicing canopy skills. in thinking about my landing pattern mistake i realized i had preplanned in my head the exact spot i wanted to be at for my final turn and became so focused on practicing a new skill (rear riser landing) that i didn't assimilate new information from around me. i.e.. LAND THE OTHER WAY, PATTERN HAS CHANGED... even experienced jumpers make mistakes, always hope they will be minor. towards that end i thought i would post this and perhaps it would help a few other jumpers avoid the mistake. sincerely, dan atair

(sorry, the fax# was wrong on the first post)

hi Derek, please go to www.extremefly.com (the hompage) click on down load demo request form, fill it out and fax it to us at 718-923-1733. we will then either arrange for a demo from one of our dealers (if there is one in your area) or put you on the list for the size you need. we do need the form, as it is a signed agreement. thanks and sorry you have been waiting so long to try one out! Heather Atair

hi Derek, please go to www.extremefly.com (the hompage) click on down load demo request form, fill it out and fax it to us at 718-923-1709. we will then either arrange for a demo from one of our dealers (if there is one in your area) or put you on the list for the size you need. we do need the form, as it is a signed agreement. thanks and sorry you have been waiting so long to try one out! Heather Atair

hi alan, one final note on this thread. the demo request form is a contract and contains content to protect atair in the event that the demo canopy is lost or a jumper hurt. a disclaimer must be executed and although the demo's are free the shiping costs are to be covered via cc. you seem to have taken my request that you fill out the form personally. that sould not be the case. this form is required for everyone requesting a demo. you would not take offense if a dz said you could not jump without getting a similar form on file. so please do not take offense from us, none intended. sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com

"It seems strange to me that someone with thousands of jumps and professional canopy evaluation experience would make that kind of mistake. I know PC size could have been an issue, but isn't it possible that the canopy was the problem and not the extremely experienced person jumping it?" kevin gibson is very experienced and a shit hot pilot...but using a mismatched pilot is common and also is not that apparent on some canopy designs. most jumpers do not even think to ask the reccomended size pilots for their canopy. i believe this is because most people just use the pilot that came with the rig. i jump a javelin rs and it came with the same size pilot as a j1 we have. same size pilot but my canopy is 1/2 the weight. (excluding the pond swoop special), the 2 canopies kevin jumped were definately perfect. i know for a fact as one was mine i took it out of my rig and sent it to him and the other was brand new, passed all quality control, and was subsequently tested by larry pennington owner of skydive suffolk after kevin jumped it. btw larry didn't send it back, he bought it. anyway, we are finishing testing now of various size pilot cutes manufactured for us by jim cazer. and will be recommending specific sizes to our dealers for each canopy. safe swoops... sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com

kevin gibson who wrote the article received a brisk not slaming opening on several 95's tested. one was in fact out of trim from constantly drying in the sun (pond swoop practice), but the other two were perfect and open quite soft in consequence tests. what was common to all jumps by kevin was that he was using an oversized pilot, with double the surface area than we recommend. we sent him the recommended size pilot and you might want to look to a future editorial for his comments. sincerely, dan atair

Yes, I would like to see more manufacurers active in this forum. We could all benefit and it would provide some balance. - i assume more manufacturers are not active because they have better things to do than deal with antoganistic posts. demo's: fax in a demo' request off our home page and the office will schedule it for you. No thanks. You gave Sangiro your word and I would expect you to keep it without me having to now fax in a request. - i offered sangiro to send a demo just the same as anyone else that wants to try one. our demo request form must be filled out, signed and faxed in. sincerely, dan atair

we reccomend a straight propack. push the nose in to the back. fold the stabs neatly towards you. quarter the slider (some people like to cup it towards you). roll the tail tight. remember if you are used to cupping air for a few seconds and deploying the opening will be faster than if you deployed at a higher fall rate. also i prefer to deploy in a slight foward track. deploying slow and packing errors may give you a brisk opening but not a slammer. please contact me via phone if there is any issue. sincerely, dan atair 718-596-8641

a note on the crossfire nose design. if you look at it when un inflated it is basically the standard rectangular opening you are used to seeing with the corners radiused on the non-loaded ribs. the heart shape you see when it inflates is because the non-loaded ribs with the rounded corners float up higher than the loaded rib in the center. the resulting distorted shape looks like a heart. this is a minor nose mod, it does reduce inlet drag slightly, but mostly i think the motivation behind it is asthetic. i think many jumpers believe it looks more modern and advanced. because the mod is on the non loaded ribs it does not make make the nose more rigid or provide a better leading edge airfoil. spanwise distortion is the same with this mod or without. sincerely, dan atair

hi geoff, the 95 canopy jumped in css over easter is a prototype 'competition' model. the nose is 25% closed with triangular cross braces from the loaded ribs. preliminary results: more rigid leading edge airfoil, less drag providing a 30% longer dive and about 1/2 size increase in speed. the 95 flies almost like an 85, but with the lift and glide of a 95. slight buffeting was noticed on the right side only during a hard hook in 1 out of 3 jumps and is being investigated. with the para performance games coming up i am working on a squeezing a little extra performance out of a few hot rod cobalts. > this is not a production mod to appear on cobalts < sincerely, dan atair sincerely, dan

i am not trying to put spins on anything just not argue over comments not in context. canopies lables stating max opening speed are tested only for canopy survival and not if the jumper will sustain injury as a result of that opening. this is very important. doesn't this bother you. it is missleading. most people assume that the rating means it is safe to open up to that figure. for many canopies it is not. neck injuries ranging from whiplash to death, detached retina's, etc.. are more common than you would think. the useful data for determining if a jumper may be harmed by opening force is the force/time curve. i have scans taken on our canopies and many others, there are distint differences between canopies. some are good, some less, and some are unsafe. the genie is out of the bag so to speak. almost every major parachute and container manufacture at the pia asked asked us to quote them on an sdas. we are building them now for other manufacturers to help offset the hugh initial r&d cost to design and build, but mainly also because it will create a level playing field. instead of manufacturers advertising un substantiated claims or saying if your canopy opens hard you must be packing wrong....jumpers will have empirical data on the differences between products to make up their own mind. Atair has deliberatly not published scans yet (but definately our sdas has been demonstrated and data shown to people in the industry) as we are in the process of involving individuals and associations for further tests. i do not want any posibility for someone to point bias, or create a situation where a more powerful company in the industry could come in and steal our thunder so to speak. additionally there is still allot of work left to be done. medically what force/time is acceptable is still a bit grey. we are inferring from studies done in the automobile industry and some military parachute studies...etc...we want i think its funny that you think i am putting out "puffery" i try to be educational in my posts and of course being with atair, i cant post without it being at least a slight plug. but i would think this is more good than not. wouldn't you like to see all manufacturers active on this list. i think we all stand to learn allot. demo's: fax in a demo' request off our home page and the office will schedule it for you. sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com ps. we will be off line and at carolina sly sports for the rest of the week. hopefully simon and i will get a ride in ted strong's parachute atv :)

if you have no problems on a sabre at 1.2 you should not have any problems on a safire at the same loading. but keep in mind they flare differently and i have found stall point on safires to be pretty high up in the control range (my experiences is with heavier loadings though). may i also suggest that if you are a good pilot under a sabre you might want to try a cobalt at a suitable loading. a loading of 1.2 on a cobalt will give you about the equivalent loading of 1.0 on a sabre with regards to foward speed. turning speed will be a bit snapier, glide is flatter and flare more powerful. keep in mind what makes them such stable, controllable easy to handle canopies at light loadings is the reason they are doing so well at higher loadings. check out the recent article in parachutist. sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com

when it comes to reserves i fully agree to err on the side caution. with that said i would like to point out my flying experience on 2 reserves a pd 113 and an atair 110. these are the only reserves i have flown both intentionally and as saves. i am loading about 1.8#. both fly well and were actually fun to fly. i have no problems landing them and can get a nice little surf out of them. of course this is ideal conditions. if i was injured and had to fly them, as ted strong says 'you could have a different kind of day.' instead of wondering and maybe being scared of what your reserve will fly like when you eventually deploy it. simply demo it as a main. you will be relaxed, conditions will be good, and you will be able to make an informed decision afterwards of if it is suitable for you. last point, just like mains not all reserves fly the same. atair reserves and pd reserves have a top skin that extends further over on the nose than a pisa reserve. this allows them to fly better and increases the flare. i have watched test jumps on pisa reserves (120 loaded 1.8#) but not jumped one myself. sincerely, dan atair ps. our reserves are not for sale in the us yet. we manufacture performance variables reserves for sale in europe (german tso rating).

hi alan, in my last post i was trying to explain that the labels are tests of max conditions for canopy survival, they do not take into consideration if the resulting opening force/time exceeds safe levels to subject a jumper. atair is trying to change this. this is not an antagonistic jab at other manufacturers , but rather our passion and effort to make the sport safer. compare apples to apples. if we go by convention we could rate the max deployment speed of the cobalt grossly higher. we do not because i have trouble with the ethics involved in allowing a jumper to have a false sense of security by thinking it is safe for their canopy to deploy at a speed that may seriously injure them. as far as crossfire jumping, i would love to have someone jump it with our SDAS (skydiving data acquisition system) and test it safely (ie. a series of jumps deploying at progressively higher speeds). the beauty of using an sdas is that there is nothing subjective, all relevant data is exactly sensed and recorded. when i said how many people want to pop their safire in a fast stand, i was just being cute. sometimes i forget that tone does not always read right when quickly typing emails. but we have tested 2 safires by letting other jumpers use our sdas. we have let allot of people jump our sdas at various dz's so we can look at the results and show our equipment. i have 4 'scans' of 2 different safires, not nearly enough for a scientific study, but based on what was recorded i wouldn't want anyone dumping one in a fast stand. sincerely, dan atair www.extremefly.com

allot of good replies... i'll just add: it not a bad idea to test jump your reserve. most manufacturers will provide reserves as demos to jump as a main. as far as whats over loaded: for structural survival of the canopy: do not exceed the tested specifications. for safely flying: that depends on your skill and if you survived the opening. just because the canopy did not blow up does not mean you didn't snap your neck. reserves are only tested for structural damage during the tso testing and not the potentially inflicted damage to the jumper. this is something atair is addressing with regards to mains (cobalt). we address the problem of high opening shocks by staging the opening. this makes for long openings and obviously is not a applicable for reserves blue ones, dan atair

hi alan, i do not recall our conversation, but i do not believe i would have said that i 'herd icarus did not test their canopies to 150kt'. i would have no knowledge of that and i do not believe they would lie. i have responded to several people when questioned about a safires 150kt label that drop test ratings are are done on canopies to determine damage done to the canopy at a specific speed and loading, NOT damage done to the jumper subjected to the opening (there is a big difference between what you would do to a drop test 'dummy' weight and what you would do to a person). Our canopies have been designed and tested using specially built equipment to ensure that the ratings we post are safe. to my knowledge no other canopy company designs with or tests their canopies recording the force/time applied to the jumper. (PD did loan recently a couple canopies to parks college as dr. jean potvin and gary peeks can take similar measurements.) having your canopy not blow apart doesn't do you much good if you snap your neck from the opening shock. i have some experience with this as i fractured my c6 vertabre on a competitors canopy on a slow speed deployment rw jump. this is unfortunately not that rare. i have deployed a 95 cobalt in head down, full stand, tracking, etc for our testing equiped with a computerized dataloger with accelerometer and load sensors. i personally have 63 test jumps deploying at speeds from 160-210mph. i have another 400+ fun jumps on cobalts most high speed. how many safire jumpers would do a jump with me and dump in a stand at 180mph? sincerely, dan preston atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.com