GeorgiaDon

Have a look at the motion to revoke bond that the prosecution filed. Not turning over the second (and only valid) passport was not an oversight, as in recorded phone conversations from the Seminole County jail on April 17 Zimmerman is heard telling his wife where to find the passport, and she tells him she has already put it in a safe deposit box. The first bond hearing wasn't until 3 days later, so at that hearing when Zimmerman told the court the passport he was surrendering (the one that expired in May 2012) was his only passport, he was intentionally lying. Prior to the first bond hearing, Zimmerman was recorded discussing with his wife how to arrange her access to the paypal account that had been set up so people could donate to his defense. By the time of the first bond hearing she had already transferred over $135,000 into her credit union account. This was done at Zimmerman's direction, as is clear from the recorded phone conversations. At the bond hearing Zimmerman's wife testified that the family was indigent, which was a lie and Zimmerman was fully aware of, and had orchestrated, that lie. It makes no difference that control of the account was given over to the defense lawyers FIVE DAYS after the bond hearing, as by that time the Zimmerman family had removed over $135,000 from the account. Subsequently that money was transferred to other accounts also controlled by the Zimmerman family, in an effort to conceal it from the court. So, the bail that was granted at the first hearing was predicated on lies that Zimmerman himself had arranged: 1. The passport that was surrendered was not his only passport, and he deliberately kept concealed from the court a passport that was valid until 2014. 2. The amount of the bail was based on testimony that the family was indigent, when in fact Zimmerman had arranged for his wife to transfer over $135,000 from the paypal account to accounts controlled by Zimmerman and his wife. It is well known that the courts do not look favorably on people who lie and deliberately misinform or mislead the court to get favorable treatment. It's a no-brainer that his bail would be revoked, as the initial bail was based entirely on lies that Zimmerman orchestrated. But of course, that doesn't fit YOUR narrative, does it. Cheers, Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Your information is incorrect. He surrendered a passport that was useless to him, as it expired in May 2012, which deceptively made it appear that he had complied with the bail conditions. He concealed from the court, and kept, a passport that is valid until 2014. The courts have to balance all the facts in determining flight risk. It is true he voluntarily surrendered to the court, though it must be considered that that was done with the expectation that he would be granted bail. On the other hand, he was deceptive in that he concealed his valid passport, and only turned over a useless passport. He also misrepresented to the court his access to money that had been donated for his defense, but was in an account he could access for any purpose. Any unbiased observer would conclude something is wrong with that situation, and that there was indeed a risk (which is not the same as a certainty) of him taking off. Funny how an empty baggie with traces of a "green leafy substance" somehow makes TM a raging lunatic drug dealer with a propensity to attack random innocent neighborhood watch volunteers, but Zimmerman lying to the court, hiding money and a valid passport is no big deal. Bias indeed! Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

But if 8,000 of the 10,000 disenfranchised votes and 4,000 of the 5,000 illegal votes are likely to go to party A, it might be very much in the interest of party B to push the issue. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I think you, and most people, have an uninformed notion of the "distinct lines" between male and female. Look up androgen insensitivity syndrome, and Klinefelter's syndrome, for a start. Anyway, I think your argument is silly, but it does highlight an interesting correlation: the same people who are so opposed to equal rights for gays and lesbians also tend to want to limit the roles women can play in society too. Don Just a fucked up arrogant post Fucked up in what way? Arrogant in what way? I'm not responsible for the fact that there are genotypes other than XX or XY. Neither an I responsible for the fact that certain mutations ensure you will turn out a phenotypic female, whatever your chromosomes say. Pretending that nature is simple when it really isn't doesn't actually make you smarter, Marc. Are you aware that there is no definition of "male" and "female" in US law? It seems odd that you can restrict marriage to an arrangement between a man and a woman, without having some precise legal definition of what constitutes a man or a woman. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I think you, and most people, have an uninformed notion of the "distinct lines" between male and female. Look up androgen insensitivity syndrome, and Klinefelter's syndrome, for a start. Anyway, I think your argument is silly, but it does highlight an interesting correlation: the same people who are so opposed to equal rights for gays and lesbians also tend to want to limit the roles women can play in society too. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

The only caveat I would add is that according to the linked article, the police are apparently acting according to a Department of Justice document that requires people reclaiming seized firearms to provide proof of ownership. So, it isn't clear that the police have a choice in this matter; do they get to pick and choose what laws/regulations they want to follow, and disregard the others? It may be that the real problem is with the Department of Justice. That being said, personally I think the property should be returned promptly, unless there is a credible reason to suspect the property has been stolen or is evidence in a crime, which seems not to be the case in this instance as the owners have been cleared of wrongdoing. A perhaps related issue is the ability of the police to keep property seized under forfeiture laws, even if the property owner is never charged with a crime. The courts have upheld such seizures, but I can't for the life of me see how this can be legal under the 4th amendment. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Your choice of words and phraseology (here and in numerous other threads) indicates you know little to nothing about the constitution. Even if AA had a perfect success rate, it is a violation of the constitution for the government (= the courts in this case) to require anyone to participate in a fundamentally religious exercise. Why is it so hard for you to understand that your freedom to adhere to your particular religious beliefs only comes with the condition that everyone else is also free to follow their own beliefs, or even no religious belief at all, as long as those beliefs/practices don't involve harming other people. If the government were to mandate that everyone follow Christianity, and in particular a literalist interpretation of the Bible, that might be convenient for you (as you wouldn't have to alter your behavior much if at all), but you still would not be free to choose. How can lack of freedom in such a personal and important part of our lives ever be reconciled with American values (or any value system that embraces freedom)? I find it disgusting when people wrap themselves in the flag of American patriotism while seeking to strip everyone else of their freedom to decide for themselves the "meaning of life". Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Ah, the "separate magisteriums" of Stephen Jay Gould. In principle, I agree with you. I know many religious scientists, and they almost all comfortably accommodate science and religion by partitioning them just the way you suggest. However, there may come a point where there is no way to avoid a collision between the two realms, because they have to deal with the same topic. Many people accommodate a belief in Christianity with a recognition that evolution is an established fact of biology, by reasoning that evolution is just a process, one that God may have "invented" and used to create humans. This is called "theistic evolution". Since this is not a testable hypothesis, it doesn't conflict with science. The problem comes when one examines the theological basis of the Book of Genesis, and so of the whole Judeo-Christian world view. The theistic evolutionary perspective is that humans were perfected from an imperfect animal origin by the will of God. However, the point of Genesis is that humans were initially created a perfect beings in God's image (Adam and Eve in the garden), were subsequently corrupted in the "Fall" when they were expelled from the garden, and ever since our purpose has been to try to return to that perfection we lost. If you take the "Fall" out of the picture (as theistic evolution does) then you stand the whole theological point of Genesis on its head, or strip it of meaning altogether. This is why evolution poses such a problem for those who believe in Biblical literalism. Unfortunately, at some point there are real, theological conflicts between fundamentalist Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam, and for other reasons Hinduism) and a logical, science-based understanding of how the world works. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

You're not the first to wonder that. Mission accomplished! Thanks, Andy, for all the chuckles and the occasional serious post. Much appreciated. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Hey Andy, I didn't mean that no checks should be applied. All I meant was that showing a photo ID is useless, if it is absurdly easy for a non-citizen to get such an ID showing that they are a citizen. Here in Georgia, my experience has been that at the DMV if I say I'm a citizen, that's what goes in their records. Even when I registered to vote, I had to insist they look at my naturalization certificate, they were completely happy to just take my word for it that I was (am) a citizen. Just this afternoon, I heard on NPR that starting in July you will no longer be able to renew your driver's licence by mail, or online, here in Georgia. When it's time to renew your licence, you will have to take the day off work to go stand in line at the DMV office, and present a litany of documents to prove in person that you are who you say you are, and that you are a citizen/legal immigrant. This is the price of real security against illegals getting a driver's license or voting: every "real American" will have to go stand in line at the DMV to prove themselves. I wonder how many will be "understanding" when it costs them time and money? Most Americans I know want illegal immigration stopped, but they don't want to be personally inconvenienced in any way. Some don't mind when other people are inconvenienced, though, such as by having their property confiscated to build a border fence. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

It depends on the state. My state verifies that you are a legal resident (through requiring proper documentation) but does not indicate anywhere on your licesne whether you are a citizen or not. In this case, the issue is do they have a mechanism for making a timely change to their records if you go from being a legal resident (green card holder) to citizen. Georgia does not, or at least did not four years ago when I tried to do it. That means there will be a period of time when you are a citizen, entitled to vote, but DMV records will still show you are not. In my daughter's case, she received a VERY threatening letter, basically stating that she had voted illegally and was going to be arrested, jailed, then deported. Only at the end of the letter was there a statement that, if she believed she was legally entitled to vote, she had three days to go to the voting registration office and confirm her status with them. The letter originated with the Georgia Secretary of State Division of Elections, but it was based on a list from the local Republican Party office, who had compared voter lists with DNC records to identify discrepancies. Interestingly, they did this only for some groups, such as college students and younger voters, but not for other groups such as retirees. Georgia doesn't put your citizenship status on the license, but they maintain records that can be searched by interested parties. When you get the license, they ask if you are a citizen. If you say yes, they didn't ask for proof when I first moved to Georgia. However if you truthfully (in my case, at the time) say you are not, then they were very stringent on what they would and would not accept as evidence of legal status. I had applied for, but not yet received, my green card, but I had a work authorization certificate so I was OK. My wife also had applied for a green card at the same time, but not work authorization, so all she had was the letter from INS acknowledging receipt of her application. This wasn't good enough for the Georgia DMV, and she was denied a drivers license. Eventually she had to get work authorization, which cost an additional couple of hundred dollars, just so she could get a Georgia drivers license, despite having a valid license from Arizona. These sorts of hassles are, I think, what tempt some people to lie and claim to be a citizen; they aren't necessarily doing it with an intent of voting. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Don't hold your breath waiting for them to show up. No money to be made here. A little less cynical take would be that there is no "racial" or "civil rights" issue in this case. Unless of course you consider the crime rate amongst young black males to be a racial issue, but they've been mum on that topic since forever. Oh, except to condemn Bill Cosby for speaking up. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I think you guys are missing the boat a bit on this one. The problem here is that the DMV is neither USCIS or a voter registration office, so it's absurdly easy for a non-citizen to register to vote that way. In my experience, you do not have to produce any documentation to prove citizenship, you just have to say you are a citizen and that's good enough. Once you have a drivers license that indicates you are a citizen, how is showing that ID at the polling station supposed to alert the staff there that anything is amiss? Another issue (again from my own experience) is that DMV does not track changes to your citizenship status in a timely manner. When I naturalized as a US citizen, I contacted DMV to have my status changed in their records, and I was told I'd have to wait until it was time to renew my license to make that change. So for about a year, I was a citizen but my drivers license still indicated that I was a permanent resident. It seems odd that I can get a new copy of my license if I change address, but not if I become a citizen. One last personal experience, right after the naturalization ceremony (after which I was finally a US citizen), I went straight to the voter registration office to fill out the paperwork to get on the voter rolls. Since I had just come from the oath ceremony I had my naturalization certificate with me. When I turned in my paperwork, the people at the voter registration office did not ask to see any documentation. They did not ask why a 50-year-old was just now registering to vote. When I insisted on showing them my naturalization certificate, they seemed distinctly bored, even annoyed. It was totally obvious that I could have walked into that office as a non-citizen and registered with very little risk of being caught. Perhaps it would be different if I wasn't white, and if I spoke with a more obvious foreign accent. All this is not to say that having to prove you are who you say you are at the polls is or is not a good idea. The point is just that having to show ID to prove citizenship is pretty much useless when it's so easy to get ID that fraudulently shows you are a citizen. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I'm glad to hear all's well in la-la land. I do regret that I apparently misunderstood you. Since you were responding to a post about someone committing suicide because they were "unhappy", and you said: "The "damage done to those loved ones" is their own damned problem. If they had the common sense to realize that you are going to eventually die anyway, what the hell difference does it make when you die? "Oh dear, he went and died earlier than I wanted. WhatamIgonnadonow?" then perhaps you can understand how I missed that you were talking about the special case of a mature adult making a considered decision. I should have recognized that such meanspiritedness would not have been in your character. Personally, I think that the option for euthanasia should be available, with a few restrictions for people who aren't competent to make such decisions, or who are doing it solely to hurt someone else ("I'm going to die and it's all YOUR fault" kind of thing). I don't get how we can offer our pets a painless way out (put to sleep is a pretty good description), yet we insist people suffer to the bitter end. Still, this will have a major impact on those who are close to us, and it's incredibly unfair to spring it on them without allowing them any chance to prepare at all. It's just part of making sure ones affairs are in order. The family may disagree with the decision, but the impact will be very different than if they just get a phone call in the middle of the night. Not to mention, leaving your spouse or kids to find your body, then having to clean up the mess. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Well, according to the article he was sentenced to 37 1/2 years, where did you see 23 1/2? Even so, he'll be looking at release when he's about 90 (assuming he doesn't get paroled), so it's at least possible he'll live long enough to be be released, which is unfortunate IMO. Although it isn't clear at all from the article, other news stories say the mother's sentences run consecutively, so it's unlikely she will ever get out even if parole is possible. Ultimately it's unlikely that either will ever be free, but it does seem messed up that the actual instigator got less time than the mother, even if the difference is likely to be moot. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Where's a good wood chipper when you need one? Just make sure they go in feet first. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

So they still have the Department of Redundancy Department? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I doubt they're overtly evil, but lazy and incompetent seems a good fit. At least, they need to explain the data better. It does sound as if they count students in high school, college, and university, as well as all retired people, as "unemployed". If there is a point to be made about the "invisible unemployed", it's completely negated by their apparent inclusion of these groups. Every time I hear about these people who aren't officially counted as unemployed because they've given up and stopped looking for work, I wonder how they are surviving. If they are getting retrained by going back to school, it isn't truthful at all to say they've "given up", and they aren't really "unemployed" either. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

So, you are telling me that how long my life goes on is up to others? Are you telling me that what I do with my life makes others do the same? "Excuse me, loved one....can I ask to have control over my own life, please?" The "damage done to those loved ones" is their own damned problem. If they had the common sense to realize that you are going to eventually die anyway, what the hell difference does it make when you die? "Oh dear, he went and died earlier than I wanted. WhatamIgonnadonow?" And particularly if the guy was sick or miserable, how about a little compassion for him? Are YOU so selfish as to make him live a fucked up life just so YOU don't get "damage done" to your little psyche? Boo-freakin'-hoo. Hey Andy, Over the years, I've known three people who've had a teenage kid commit suicide. One came home to find her daughter had hung herself from the shower nozzle, and slit her wrists for good measure. Not one of those parents has come close to being the same person they were, even years later. In fact, for as long as I was in touch with them I'd say they were incapable of feeling any joy about anything, only deep and pervasive sadness. It's too bad I wasn't able to put them in touch with you at the time. I'm sure your little pep talk would have done them a world of good. I thought you had a kid, but maybe I was mistaken. Yep, must have been. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I suspect he can shave with it. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Made it clicky. Apparently there is a camera mounted so the customer can have a video of their flight. The pilot has been charged with obstruction; it is alleged that he removed and swallowed the memory card. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

So "forward" is a commie plot! Cool! From now on we'll be able to tell the true conservatives, they'll be the ones who only walk backwards, or sideways at best. Careful you don't back into any fire hydrants, or spinning props! Remember, only liberal commies walk forwards. Actually, this makes sense for a political movement who thinks things have been only going downhill since the 18th century. Or in some cases, since around 3 AD. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Thanks for posting that link. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I still don't get how the only possible explanation for GZ's injuries is that TV must have launched an unprovoked attack. Can you really not see any other possibilities? I'll wait for the courts to deal with it. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Not seeing anything there to contradict it. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)