GeorgiaDon

After some pondering, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything he has to say. Just a couple of things that might also help: 1) Increase the supply of doctors. Currently the medical profession restricts the number of med school slots, so doctors are in short supply especially in certain disciplines. More doctors will mean more competition, more being attracted to underserved areas (general practice, geriatrics, etc), and lower prices. This must include opening more medical schools, and maybe subsidizing the cost to expand the pool of candidates. Both are inherently expensive propositions, but perhaps cost-effective in the long run. As some in the medical profession who post here have pointed out, such reforms could screw doctors who have gone through the existing system and are now saddled with huge student loans. Some loan forgiveness mechanism may also be needed. 2) Allow people to accumulate money in medical savings programs for more than one year. The system we have now only allows for a year at a time, and money in the account at the end of the year is lost. This should be a simple and non-controversial matter of "tweaking" the existing law. 3) Malpractice reform to lower premiums, while still allowing for appropriate restitution for real victims of medical malpractice. I don't think simple-minded caps on awards will work. That has been done here in Georgia and in other states; premiums have continued to rise, insurance company profits have risen, and it is now economically unfeasible for low-income people to seek restitution. The reason for that is awards are limited to $250,000 plus actual economic damages. A big chunk of economic damages is loss of future income, which is pretty small for most people. Since expert witness fees, court and legal fees, etc have to be paid out of the award, the maximum payment under the caps won't even cover legal costs unless you make a 6-figure income. I wonder if it would be cheaper for the AMA or the various medical professional societies to "self-insure". The society would maintain a cadre of "special masters", who would be qualified to examine malpractice claims. If they decide the case is malpractice, they could negotiate a settlement. If they feel the case is frivolous, the society would contact with lawyers to fight tool and nail. Cost savings could be realized, because the profit skimmed off by the insurance company would be eliminated. Insurance companies often settle "smaller" claims because they can be expensive to contest, and anyway they can recover their payment to the "victim" by ratcheting up premiums. This feeds a "malpractice claim is like winning the lottery" mentality. If frivolous claims were contested instead of automatically paid, the incentive to sue frivolously would decrease. By "frivolous" I mean claims related to normal (and often temporary) side effects of treatment, which patients are told about in advance, and things of that nature. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

As matters stand, we have a problem with illegal immigration because we provide jobs to people who are not entitled to work here. Certain industries in particular benefit from hiring illegals, as they can pay them less than Americans would demand for the same services. We need: 1) A fast, easy-to-use, and highly accurate system to verify social security numbers (including matching numbers to names. The E-verify system is supposed to do this, but accuracy and ease of use are apparently problematic. However I recently heard a program on NPR where HR people said that they could get verification routinely in under 3 minutes, which seems pretty good to me. In the same program, the American Council of Business (or something like that) was whining about the cost imposed on business (which is trivial, especially compared to criminal background checks); basically their attitude was to let someone else take care of the problem. 2) Require all employers to verify employees social security number. 3) Police businesses to ensure checks are made, ideally before beginning employment. Severely fine both businesses who fail to check, and illegals who obtain employment without legal status. Remove the financial incentive to hire illegals. If it is nearly impossible to get a job here as an illegal immigrant, very few will come here (illegally) and the ones already here will lose their jobs and have to leave. Of course, if down the road we discover that we really don't have the people to pick crops or pluck chickens or whatever, we will have to create legal mechanisms for people to come here to do those jobs. As it stands now, either there are no existing mechanisms to obtain visas to work in certain industries, or those visas are prohibitively expensive. If an industry needs to bring in foreign workers, perhaps they should pay the visa costs, just as high-tech industries pay H1 visa costs for immigrants with needed technical skills. On the down side, the cost of food is likely to rise some. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Thanks for that. Much to ponder. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Good luck Wendy. They never answer those questions, I'm pretty convinced by now that it's because they can't. It's worth noting that, when an illegal alien's emergency treatment is reimbursed by Medicaid, the money goes to the hospital/doctors that provided the service, not to the illegal alien. The real outcome of not "covering" illegal aliens (keeping in mind that at the time of the emergency, there isn't any timely way to figure out who is and who is not a citizen, often you have to treat first and ask questions later) will only be to screw the doctors and hospitals, who are certainly good US citizens/corporations. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Hey dsandreas, Are you going to answer the questions I asked of you earlier (post 194) in the thread? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Tom, I'm watching a retrospective of the 9-11 attacks, and wondering if you are really saying that after that attack, we should have responded by doing NOTHING??? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

OK, so I have asked these questions of several "right-wing" posters, and no-one has ever bothered to respond. Wendy asked earlier in this thread, and no-one responded to her. I hope you will do me the courtesy of an answer. Enforcement means that US citizens have to be able to prove citizenship. 1) What proof of US citizenship do you think would be adequate? A birth certificate is not an adequate document, as they are easily forged. In fact, the only real proof of citizenship that I have is a passport. 2) Would you support a law that required all citizens to have a passport? How do you feel about a "national identity card"? If you do not, then how can you reconcile "enforcement" with the fact that most US citizens do not actually have the ability to prove citizenship? 3) Suppose a US citizen is injured in a car accident, and is transported to the hospital. The victim is critically ill, and must receive immediate treatment or they will die. However, their identification was left at the accident scene when EMS transported them, so they arrive at the hospital without ID including proof of US citizenship. (This is not an imaginary scenario; according to a former student of mine who works EMS about 20% or more of critical patients don't have ID when they are transported). Would you really demand that the hospital refuse to treat them, and instead allow them to die, because they can't be sure of the persons citizenship status? How many US citizens would it be OK to allow to die, each year, just to ensure that no tax dollars were ever spent to treat an illegal alien? I hope you will be able to explain to me how all this is supposed to work. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

You make your wife stand in the corner? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Out of curiosity, do you also object to mandatory auto insurance, or do you think that too should be a matter of personal responsibility? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Agree 100%. When I've tried to explain this approach to very conservative/religious types, I've found most to be hostile to the idea, at least at first. They think it involves taking something away from them. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Which is, of course, the appropriate thing to say in the first place. As it is a totally untestable proposition, it lies entirely within the realm of faith, which is the proper place for religious statements. Everyone can choose for themselves to believe it or not. It is when religion conflicts with science, the realm of actual observation, measurement, and experiment, that religion comes off looking silly, because it then requires us to deny what we can actually observe as "false", and substitute a fairy world that is unobservable and capricious. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, but evolution is just a process. The process says nothing, one way or the other, about "God". There aren't any obvious "God fingerprints" in the working of the process, but there is no evidence that there isn't a "God" (albeit a wasteful, cruel, and very patient one) either. There are certainly many more people who believe in "theistic evolution" (evolution guided in some way by a "God") than there are people who hold the atheistic view. Of course, reality is not determined by the point of view that holds the most adherents. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

There is a difference between calling a specific person a liar, and saying that people who knowingly spread falsehoods about health care reform, so as to sow fear and gain political advantage, are telling lies. Obama did not "name names", he called out a behavior, and the only people who are tarnished as liars are the ones who have engaged in that behavior. If the shoe fits, as the saying goes. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

With all due respect, since humans and chimpanzees diverged more recently than the gorilla/(chimp + human) split, if we were to run into that common ancestor we would see an animal that would be immediately recognizable as an "ape". It would not be any currently living ape species (or even genus) of course, but it would be an ape, likely looking like a mix of chimp and gorilla. In fact, humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans all belong to the same taxonomic family (the Hominidae, or "great apes"), and the most recent common ancestor is necessarily also Hominidae. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

It's sad that that anyone is comfortable with the idea of executing people for crimes they did not commit. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Just curious about when this happened. My youngest daughter graduated this year from a public school in Georgia with nearly a year's worth of advanced college credit courses, which were taken at the high school but count for university credit. As a result she should be able to finish a 4-year degree in 3 to 3 1/2 years. I personally had an experience like the one you describe, but that was back in the paleolithic (early 1970's). Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Oops, my bad. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Do conservatives have no sense of context? WTF? Think about it. The president gives a talk about setting personal goals in education, and working hard to meet those goals. Nothing more. Immediately afterward, the kids are asked "to engage in a discussion about what the president wants us to do". Rational people would recognize that there is a connection between the speach and the question. Why would anyone conclude that the "correct answer" would have anything to do with matters that were not specifically discussed in the speach? How can people who think like that even function? Teacher: How much is 2 plus 2? Student: Australia! Teacher: 2 plus 2 is 4. How did you get "Australia"? Student: Well last week you were talking about where kangaroos live. Only if you think "Australia" was a good answer. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

A while ago you posted a link to a paper that showed that premiums tend to be higher in states that regulate minimum standards of care that must be covered by an insurance plan (what you call mandates). I pointed out that the paper did not examine the quality of the coverage (is the plan any good if you get sick?) in states with and without mandates. Sure, premiums can be low if the insurer can drop you, or deny necessary procedures and you are left with no avenue to appeal in time to save your life, but that coverage is worth nothing. So what if it covers homeopathy or colonotherapy if it won't cover oncology, and they don't tell you that until you need treatment. Mandates were brought in because of questionable business practices on the part of some (not saying all) insurers. What specific mandates would you like to see dropped, and why? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Directly from the article Ryoder posted: Several other examples of specific instances of patients being denied life-saving care are given in the article. Perhaps you just prefer to not see them because they conflict with your ideal that private industry can do no wrong? I think telling a 57-year-old that his cancer is not worth treating because he is "too old" is the epitome of the "death panel" scenario. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I could not be more in agreement. Again agree completely. Unfortunately sometimes people do do things that hurt others, and I think it's one of the major responsibilities of government (acting according to the wishes of the people) to deal with them. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

What is your alternative? Lynch mobs? Family feuds? Duels? Just curious. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

100% in agreement. Somehow though your tone comes across as much more reasonable than "In all seriousness. If I had a kid is school today, I would either be there or pull my kid unless I knew before hand what the topic was." There is a difference between wanting to know what your child has heard, so that you can discuss with them whether you agree or disagree, and implying that listening to the POTUS is so dangerous that his speach has to be censored. I probably agreed with about 5% of Bush's policies. I'd never deny my kids the chance to see the president speak because of that. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

You also don't need to skydive or engage in other activities that have a significant risk of resulting in costly injuries, if you can't ensure that you can pay for it in a timely manner (timely being within the bounds of what the hospital will be willing to negotiate of course). Of course not, nobody said they were. Look, I'm fine with the idea of "I don't expect anyone to pay for it other than myself", if a person can really do that. For a broken tib/fib or wrist, certainly that's doable. If we're talking about a major injury (multiple broken bones, maybe brain injury) resulting in multiple surgeries, months in the hospital, and a year of PT, then we're talking about bills in the hundreds of thousands or even $1,000,000+ (look up Dead Mike some time). Lets say we're talking about $100,000 in bills; paying that off at $20/month for the "rest of my life" would take 417 YEARS at NO interest. I guess that's why I took that comment to be flip and possibly even intentionally disparaging to medical professionals. If I misinterpreted I'm sorry, but to me that's much like getting excellent service and a first-class meal in a restaurant, and then tipping 2 cents and getting in a Lexus to drive home. Somehow that's more insulting than "forgetting" to tip altogether. $20 a month isn't even one skydive; if you can afford to jump you can afford more than that. Realistically you should be thinking along the lines of $800/month for a long time (10 yrs or more). If you can afford to "self-insure" it's a safe bet that you can afford a high-deductible insurance policy that will knock your share of that $100,000 down to maybe $10,000 and not screw over the doctors as a bonus. No-one likes to think about it, but what happens in the case where a jumper is seriously injured, racks up big bills, then eventually dies. If they don't have medical insurance it's a pretty sure bet they don't have life insurance either, in which case all those doctors and nurses who worked to try to save the jumper are left with nothing. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Well OK. I don't personally know anyone who supports the idea that people who are not citizens, or who haven't gone through the process to come here legally, should be able to work or collect government benefits. I am aware that people that believe that do exist, for example many of the church groups that work with such "immigrants" advocate for an open door policy. I think they are 1) few in number, 2) not living in the real world, and 3) out of their minds. Really, are there Congressmen who advocate throwing the doors completely open and not exercising any control on who comes into the country? I mean American politicians; I know there's a lot on the Mexican side of the border who'd love that. $$ sent home from America takes a lot of pressure off them to deal with their own problems. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Yeah, like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright! I actually don't know any "liberals" who would object to that. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)