GeorgiaDon

Did you check out either of the links she provided? The lottery and other options are discussed there. None apply to Mexicans who do not have an advanced degree or a sponsoring family member. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

This should be interesting! I didn't vote, because I did immigrate here, under the 1st category (science/engineering degree), and I think the poll is to see how many native-born US citizens could get in if they weren't born here. Also just to clarify, the student visa (F1) is for temporary residence only, and there is no direct mechanism to transition from an F1 to a green card (except marrying a US citizen you happened to meet while a student of course). However many students acquire science/engineering degrees that allow them to transition to an employer-sponsored H visa, and from there they may move on to permanent residency if their employer is willing to sponsor them. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Did you ever think it's dishonest to tell people to leave and come back through the front door, when (for them) there is no front door? Do you have the cajones to say (or write) for all to see that in your mind Latin Americans are "crooks thiefs and other undesireable people"? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Wow! That really says a lot... about YOU. You think the giant oil slick that has shut down fishing and tourism across the Louisiana and Alabama coast has nothing to do with people's attitudes towards the industry? Because he's a politician, and he knows exactly what response would result if he was to shrug his shoulders and say "too bad so sad, what's good for big oil is good for America so all you fishermen can just suck it up". Great for all you Obama-haters though, you get to stroke your hate-G-spot if he speaks out, and you get to stroke it if he doesn't. Win-win! Enjoy your little hate orgasm. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

How many Mexican/Colombian/Guatemalan citizens piloted those planes? The USA I know is bigger than "collateral damage". I think "collateral damage" is code for "I don't like all those brown-skinned funny-talking people, and 911 looks like a pretty good straw I can grasp". Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Now we're getting somewhere. From the US Department of State website: "In general, to be eligible to apply for an immigrant visa, a foreign citizen must be sponsored by a U.S. citizen relative(s), U.S. lawful permanent resident, or by a prospective employer..." In fact there are only two categories of people who can "self-sponsor" their immigration. The first are eminent scientists and researchers (pretty much just Nobel Prize level people), and athletes and entertainers who have attained "household name recognition" status; those people can apply under the "National Interest" category. Also if you invest at least $1,000,000 in eligible US businesses you can "purchase" a Green Card. Obviously this category will never include day laborers and chicken plant workers. The second way to immigrate without a corporate or family member sponsor is through the Green Card lottery. This program makes available up to 50,000 green cards for people from countries where immigration to the US is low (which is why it's called the "Diversity Visa Lottery"). People from the following countries are NOT eligible for the lottery: Brazil, Canada, China (... excluding Hong Kong S.A.R., and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam. I underlined the Latin American countries to make it clear that essentially ALL of the illegal immigrants that people are worked up about are ineligible to apply to the "diversity lottery". For all of you who say that all the people who coming here illegally should leave and reapply to immigrate legally, there is no legal way for them to do so. For them, the door is shut. Turtle, your comments suggest to me that on a "gut level" this is actually what you, and likely many of the most virulently "anti-illegal" types, want. Keep them out! They'll threaten our way of life! Never mind that your ancestors were allowed in, which you are now benefiting from. Now that you're in, shut the door! No more of that "rabble"! America used to be characterized by: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Now it's "Give me your educated, your accomplished, your wealthy. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, those you can keep. If you send the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, there will be no lamp and there is no door." Don't you agree it's more than a little hypocritical and disingenuous to tell people they must come here legally, when (for the great majority of them) there is no way for them to do that? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Because that's how our system works. We don't allow tourists, for example, to work. If you want to work you need work authorization, and you need to be on a visa that specifically allows for that. The student visa is the F1 visa. To obtain a F1 visa you need to be enrolled full time at an accredited school, and as a foreign student you usually have to post a bond to indicate that you have sufficient resources to support yourself through the course of study. In some cases students are allowed to work for the school in a work/study program or as a teaching assistant, especially if the degree requires the student to complete some teaching experience, which is often the case in graduate level programs. For the most part, foreign students bring money (lots of money!) from home and spend it here. For example, they have to pay out-of-state tuition, which is 4-5 times what in-state students pay. You can't be a full-time student on a F1 visa and work in a chicken plant, that would violate the conditions of the visa and you'd be working illegally. So once again, what specific visa/work authorization is available to day laborers, landscapers, carpenters, chicken pluckers, etc? Anyone? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I'll then ask you the question I posed in post #27 of this thread, which Airdivr has so far refused to (or is incapable of) answering: What specific immigrant visa program is available to would-be immigrants who do not have advanced University degrees or family members who are legally able to sponsor them? The visas I am familiar with (H, J, and TN) require advanced education (engineering degrees, or a PhD in a hard science) are targeted to specific industries or to Universities, and are limited by tight quotas, so that it may take years to obtain the visa. Also none of them allow you to show up at the border and "fill in the paperwork", in every case you must be sponsored by an employer who must want you badly enough to pay several thousand dollars in fees and fill out endless paperwork over months to years, plus cope with annual renewal fees and paperwork. I know of no program to admit landscapers, chicken plant workers, or carpenters. So, please tell me what specific visa category applies to such people. Thanks! Don Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject, could you tell me what visa program these people should apply under to be able to come through the gate, as you say. I'm quite familiar with J and H visas, but those require advanced education (most go to PhD's) and are tightly rationed. There is the TN visa, but again you have to have technical skills that fall into a small list of eligible professions. For all 3 visa types you need to be sponsored by a business or an educational institution, you can't just show up at the "gate" and ask to be let in. The only alternatives that I know of are to marry a US citizen, or to invest a large sum of money in a US business (at least a million dollars I think), in which case you can jump the queue and get a green card without having to be in the country for 5 years first. I have no idea what kind of a visa is even available to someone whose skill set is cleaning chickens or shingling roofs. So, when I'm pointing people to the "gate" what specific visa program do you suggest they apply under? Thanks! Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

So why don't you tell us just how bad it is (or isn't), oh clairvoyant one. You must have pretty good eyes to be able to see what's going on all the way from Illinois, better than the people in flights over the spill can. Maybe NASA is doctoring all those ominous looking satellite pictures. An oil spill the size of Rhode Island, drifting towards the most productive shrimp and oyster beds in the country, what could possibly go wrong? If you think it's not that bad, why don't you offer to cover some of the bills for a few shrimp fishermen who now have no income? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

In 1979 the Ixtoc I well blew at a depth of 2 miles off the Mexican coast. It was capped 9 months later, after spilling 140 million gallons (35 million barrels) of oil. Eventually 3 million gallons fouled 162 miles of the Texas coast. It was the second worst spill in history. While we don't know what went wrong with the Deepwater Horizon, the parallels with Ixtoc I seem very suggestive. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

No doubt those two factors are locked in some kind of a death spiral. I'll agree that ultimately it's unsustainable. That's one of the Achilles's heals of unions unfortunately. In the case of for-profit companies, I like the idea of tying wages to profits. Unproductive employees wouldn't be as coddled, as they would decrease profitability and so every-bodies paycheck would suffer. I've no idea how to apply that to public transit, though. Sure, because ultimately that's what get them elected. A chicken in every pot, and nobody has to pay. Ain't America grand! I do think the politicians who campaign on tax cuts, without offering any specifics on what they will cut to balance the books (because they either don't have a clue, or don't actually plan to cut anything significant, or are too cowardly to speak honestly abut their ideas), are a big part of the problem. They only foster the mistaken notion that taxes can be cut without cutting services, and hey! who wouldn't like that? Instead they cut revenues and then find they can't cut services, and things only get worse. Honesty doesn't play very well in Peoria, or anywhere else in America politics, unfortunately. Just ask Jimmy Carter. I don't live in SF, so I'll have to take your and kelpdiver's word regarding the state of affairs there. _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Well that seems like a heck of a lot for a bus driver. Here in Georgia (a "right-to-work" state) a significant proportion of city and state workers actually qualify for food stamps (or would if their public service job was their only income). Here in Athens (GA, not Greece) the only city employees to make over $100,000 are the city manager, attorneys, and judges. But the part of the story you are leaving out is what it costs to live. I have a 5 bedroom 3 bath house on a 3/4 acre lot, 15 minutes from my work. That house is appraised at just over $200,000. On the other hand, about 10 years ago I was talking to a chemistry professor from Berkley who had just won a MacArthur fellowship (often called the "genius award"). When I asked what she was going to do with the award, she said she might (might!) now have enough of a down payment to be able to afford to buy her own house. The award was around $400,000 at the time. My point is that while $100,000 is a lot of money for a bus driver, if that salary only buys you a one bedroom apartment and Raman noodles four times a week you will not be able to attract or retain decent employees. How much of SF's current budget woes can be traced to the ridiculous prices in that area, driven by the dot-com bubble? Is it excessively greedy of people who are working full time to expect to be able to live in a house and send their kids to college, or are we gravitating towards a world where such "luxuries" are reserved for those of "CEO grade" only? My point being, I suspect there is more to the story than just stupid politicians and greedy unions. Agreed, I don't see how any society can hope to sustain a retirement age of 50. When social security was implemented, the average life expectancy was less than the retirement age. Now people live decades drawing on the system. Retirement at 50 should be (IMHO) one of those "luxuries" that should be earned by individuals who make suitable provisions to be able to afford it. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

In many cases American cities and states pay crap wages, and the only thing that makes it tolerable to work for them is the "overly generous benefits" (such as health insurance) and pensions. Most of the city workers I know need to work second and sometimes third jobs to make ends meet. Retroactively cutting promised pensions, after the employees have put in the time, is no different than retroactively declaring "we think we paid you too much" and going into the employee's bank account and taking out the money. How much of a "happy camper" would you be if your clients/employers could decide, years down the road, they paid you too much and take back from you whatever they felt was "fair", after you have done the work you were contracted to do? Falling revenues may necessitate paying less than contracted for on pensions, but make no mistake, it is stealing from the employee, plain and simple. Of course, it is easy to do, as there is nothing the employee can do about it once they have done the work and are retired. I, for example, could not go back and "un-teach" all the students I have taught should the state decide to renege on their side of the contract. I think politicians get us into these revenue messes in large part because the public (certainly the American and Canadian public, and I assume it's true elsewhere) expects a certain level of service, and yet has been conditioned to believe they don't have to pay for it (or not pay very much). To get elected, politicians are compelled to promise to maintain or even increase services, while holding the line on or (more often these days) cutting taxes. It doesn't help that the political horizon only extends to the next election, so budgetary planning that's bound to collapse 10 or 20 years down the road will likely be somebody else's problem. So, it becomes prudent (for the politician) to push the problem into the future by maintaining services by offering a low wage now in exchange for a decent pension later. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Thanks for posting that link. The comments are very educational. Most are from engineers involved in the oil industry, proposing and critiquing possible solutions. I now have a much better understanding of what may have gone wrong, and why the problem is so difficult to fix. Very different from the usual string of illiterate imbecilic rants that follow most internet postings (not to cast aspersions on SC!). Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Pretty much. Yuck! Any idea why he's wearing flippers and a diving mask? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Thanks. Good job by the shopkeeper, but not a very "action-packed" video. This reminds me of an article I read once about entomologically-themed superheroes. Since spiders actually have the spinnerets (where the silk thread for the web comes out) on their butt end, an anatomically correct Spiderman would have to bend over and shoot his web out of his ass to catch the bad guys. Not very "heroic" looking, but tons of comic potential. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Video can only be viewed from within the UK. Got another link? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I'd have been surprised to get a direct answer. It's pretty obviously "code". "If you have to ask you wouldn't understand" sort of thing. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

I was just curious why you would post about the oathkeepers in response to the OP rant against allowing muslims into positions of responsibility in the government. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Do the "oathkeepers" have a policy of excluding Muslims? Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

They aren't threatened with endless litigation if they don't push the limits. It's the combination of the two, plus the part of the law protecting the police against legal action from people who feel they have been unfairly harassed, that is toxic. If you tell the police, "we'll sue you if you don't push it, but we've got your back if you do", what do you think will happen? And how hard is it to get a fake social security card, or a birth certificate? Then you can use your fake birth certificate to get an authentic driver's license, and you're good to go! Look, I'm not arguing that illegal immigration isn't a big problem. I even have an additional (rather peevish) gripe, as I spent thousands of dollars in fees and years waiting on INS/USCIS to take action on various applications (green card, naturalization) so that I and my wife and children could immigrate here legally. It bugs me that people "jump the line", and avoid the waiting, fees, intrusive interrogations, and all that I had to go through. But let's be realistic here. If the goal of the Arizona (and similar) legislation is to eliminate illegal immigration, it's no more likely to succeed than laws outlawing pot have eliminated the drug trade. It's all about supply and demand; as Darius said if there were no jobs for illegals, and no government benefits, there would be no illegals. Face it, the supply of people wanting to come here is endless, as long as the demand (businesses willing to hire cheap illegal labor) exists. Putting a few more barriers in the way, such as getting a real driver's license by using a fake birth certificate, will hardly even slow down the flood of people coming in. Besides, there are real costs, in terms of money and eroded civil rights, to catch, warehouse, and eventually deport all those people. Wouldn't it be better if they stopped coming here illegally of their own accord? I appreciate davjohn's summary of the Arizona law-thanks! There is a lot in the law that I have no problems with. As I said, some combinations of things that seem innocuous in themselves will likely lead to problems. I did read the law, all 17 pages, but it's pretty boring and I may have nodded off and missed a point or two. But, here's the thing: section 6 deals with businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants, and the penalty for them is (get this) three years PROBATION (not sure how probation will apply to a business), and they lose their business licenses until they (get this) sign an affidavit promising not to do it again! No fine, no jail time for company officers, no loss of the right to bid on state contracts, in short NO financial penalties. How is that supposed to be a deterrent to business from hiring illegals? On the other hand anybody, even a US citizen, can be fined for standing alongside a road and indicating, by word or gesture, that they are available to be hired. WTF? One last thing, I was able to immigrate legally because of my education and technical skills. For the kind of jobs done by most illegal immigrants, there is no legal avenue of immigration available. We seem to need at least some of these people to feed our appetite for cheap food and cheap labor. If we want the cheap food and labor, we need to make a reasonably priced visa that allow these people to come here legally. Supply and demand, people. Kicking ass may make you feel better in the short term, but supply and demand is the solution to the problem. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

+1 Worse yet, it allows any private citizen who thinks the police are not doing everything possible to enforce Federal immigration laws to sue the department. "Reasonable suspicion" is so vague as to be meaningless, so the logical effect of the law will be for the police to push the limits of "reasonable suspicion" as far as they can to avoid endless lawsuits. Alternatively they may do as the TSA does; to avoid the appearance of profiling they will just stop everybody. Those of you who think your blond hair and blue eyes will indemnify you against being hassled may be in for an unpleasant surprise. Once again I will ask what form of ID is sufficient to prove that you are a US citizen. I have asked this several times and each time it's nothing but crickets. If you, an authentic American citizen, are questioned what will you offer to prove your citizenship? Birth certificates are even more easily faked than social security cards, you can't rely on those. A drivers license is issued to legal residents, it isn't any good to prove citizenship. Anti-government paranoia types have killed the national ID card plan, and almost no states adopted the RealID drivers licenses as it was an unfunded mandate from Washington. Although this Arizona law does not explicitly require that US citizens obtain and carry at all times a passport, that is the logical implication as, for most citizens, a passport is the only available proof of citizenship. Under the law, if you can't prove citizenship or legal immigration status you must be detained until your citizenship can be verified by the Federal government. Nice little vacation in Sheriff Arpaio's resort, until you get the thumb's up from a Federal bureaucrat. Show me your papers, comrade. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

SOP for such cases is quarantine (at Animal Control) for 30 days with observation for symptoms. The alternative is testing of course, but that requires removing the brain and sending it to a state lab for testing. As rabies is a relatively slow-growing virus plaque assays and subsequent Western blotting etc takes significantly longer than 30 days. There is only the one lab in the state that is certified to deal with rabies (requires a BSL3 lab), and they are responsible for testing for many pathogens, so even a preliminary PCR assay takes weeks. Either way, if you take a wait and see attitude (which you can choose to do) and the animal is infected, you will have lost a significant amount of time and it may be too late to benefit from post-exposure vaccination. Once the virus enters nerves it is not accessible to antibodies or immune cells, and will ultimately and inevitably travel up the nerve to the central nervous system. Once it reaches the brain it's game over, but your fate is sealed as soon as it gets into even peripheral nerves. The only protection is to generate a neutralizing antibody titer before that happens, so time is of the essence. You might wonder why quarantine dogs instead of testing them directly in every bite case involving an unvaccinated dog. Firstly, if the dog is infected it will almost certainly show typical symptoms in less than 30 days, so you'll have a good idea if the dog is infected or not faster than if you wait for the lab tests. Secondly, every animal sent for testing costs the county several hundred dollars, so if you had a policy of testing every animal you'd be looking at tens of thousands of $$/yr. So, only dogs that show symptoms are sent for confirmatory testing. Hope this helps. Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

No doubt, and there will be irresistible pressure for other states to follow suit. Yet another example of Americans surrendering freedom in a knee-jerk response to the political need to look like something is being done. What fourth amendment? That's so 18th century! Don _____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)