philh

"No, I don't think the Germans of 21st century should be punished for Nazis, etc. However, if the Germans do not learn from that (and USA doesn't learn from it's own ilglorious past) we deserve what we get." So how do you feel about Exodus 20:5? Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and can you justify the concept of original sin?

I read what you said before it just didnt seem to make any sense. Whatever mankind did in the past, what has that got to do with makind now? lts just keep things to one point at a time then. this is the thrid time Ive asked this question with no answer. Im hoping I can get one this time. Should Germans of today be punished for thhe Nazis , should americans today be punished for slavery? Yes or no? if you think no then you must surely condenm the morality of a god who visits the sins of the fathers onto the children.

Why is man in need of a saviour? Why does some guy dying on a cross 2 thousand years ago mean we are "saved"? What are we guilty of exactly?

Why is it silly to debate things on a debating forum?

rhys come on mate, you know full well the "magic" you feel when swooping has nothing to do withh this debate. we are talking about pyschics, those that claim supernaturla powers. These people are either lying to themsleves or lying to others.

I dont understand if Adam and Eve didnt exist what basis do you have to believe that there ever was an original sin? Even if there was an original sin why should future generations be punished for it? You didnt respond to my question should todays generation of Germans be punished for the crimes of the Nazis; should the current generation of Americans be punished for the crimes of their fathers who kept slaves? If you agree that they shouldnt then it must be equally unjust for god to do the same. Even if we do agree there was an original sin and that future generations do inherit why not punish them? Why should one mans death who apparently didnt sin be any kind of justice for thosethat do sin?The notion is absurd. If you have a gang of thieves you should arrest them,not go and punsih someone else who never committed a crime. Why should punishing him be any kind of absolution for them? So heres non fundamentalism Christian theology: two people who didnt exist committed a crime that their children strangley "inherit", and thousands of years later a man comes along gets arrested and killed by the Romans and as long as we believe he was able to come back from the dead and ask forgiveness for the crimes of some poeple that didnt exist thenn everything will be ok? And this is supposed to make sense?

I think pyschics are a problem, not a big problem like religion is but a problem none the less. the reason for this is that people waste their time and money on them and more importantly people make decisions based on entirley bogus information. Belief in erroneous concepts like pyschics can have even more negative impacts when for example someone with a genuine health complaint goes to a see a pyshcic for advice rather than a doctor. I do a bit of ameteur magic and one thing I do know is there isnt one pyschic phenemenon that cant be replicated by a skilled magician. I would suggest anyone go on you tube and look up Derren Brown to show you this. No one has ever won James Rxadni's challenge and this is strong evidence that pyshcics dont exist. Of course it isnt proof pyschics dont exist simply because you can't prove that something doesnt exist. You cant prove invisible unicorns dont exist. As long people fail to understand this people will believe in pyschics, I suggest more education in critical thinking may be part of the solution. the idea that we dont know everyhting about the brain and thereofre maybe pyschics are real is false. Sure we don't know evverything about the brain but that doesnt me we are free to suppose any old nonsense. the oyschic phenemenon has no theoreitcal or empirical basis in fact, everything can be replicated by magic tricks and so its pretty safe to assume thats all there is to it.

In Christian theology we have inherited original sin from Adam and Eve, Christ comes sto redeem us from that original sin but if Adam and Eve never existed then why should we believe there ever was any original sin in the firt place? Furthermore even if Adam ad eve did exist whhy should the sins of the parents be blamed on their descendants? Should we blame the current generation of germans for the Nazis? Should be we blame the current generation of Amercians for slavery?

I wonder do you believe that the Adand and Eve story literally happened or is it a metaphor and if it did happen when do you believe it happened?

Of course there are parables iin the bible, but I presume you would agree that some of it is literal. I have highlighted in this debate two ugly parts of the bible (and there are many others) 1 the death penalty for sabbath breakers and 2 jesus saying non believers should be burnt. Now what eveidence do you have that these are parables? I looked up wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus for a list of parables and neither of these appeared in their list so presumably I am not alone in my view that there is no grounds to believe these are to be taken metaphorically.

I don't see evolution acting between species and types. Perhaps you dont see it, but fortunatley scientists do. Here is an example Ive posted before that might help you. In the 1980's Christian creationists claimed that the whale was a prime example of the falsification of evolution. Where was the whale with legs? they asked. To quote creationist Alen Haywood"They (Darwinists) beleive that somehow a whale must have evolved from an ordinary land dwelling animal...a land mammal that was in the process of becoming a whale would fall between 2 stools-it would not be fitted for life on land or sea, and would have no hope for survival." evolution had predicted a transitional animal between a land animal and a whale. In the 1980's such a creture was unknown. But of course evolution made good on its scientific preidctions: the earliest known marine mammal dates back to 60 million years ago, whales appear in the fossial record 30 million years ago. So evolution predicted that any transtitional animal would appear in the fossil record between 55 and 35 million years ago. Sure enough in Egypt a complete skeleton of Basilorous a 35 million year old whale like creature was discovered . This skeleton included delicate vestigal hind legs. In 1994 in Pakistan Rhodocetus , a 46 million year old creature was discovered. Its very similar to Basilorous but its hind legs are more exagerted and its facial feaures, position of nose eyes etc are more like a land mammal. Also in 1994 Ambulocetus was discovered. Its 52 million years old.Here was an animal with similar body features to whales but with hind legs finally big enough to be able to walk. Why would the other species have legs when they cannot walk? Look at the animals and you will see the development of the fins , from something simialr to paws, that increase theyre similarity to fins graudally through the different species. You will also see the graudal movement of the nasal passages backward to allow a blow hole to form as in modern whales. Here is one of many many clear exmaples of evolutionary predictions being exactly met by the evidence in clear contradiciton to what nieve creaationsists had predicted. You can chose to ignore them if you wish , but thankfully biological science doesnt make such errors. One of my salsa partners is an HIV researcher. Accordign to her the problem with finding a cure is that the HIV virus evolves so rapidly. An understanding of such evolution may help save millions of people around the world from a terrible fate , to ignore or deny it may condemm them to it. Hundreds of years ago in Europe Christianity dominated all feilds of thought. Their solution to the black plague? Get people into churches and prey. Result: perhaps a third of the population died. Thankfully we dont rely upon such Christian superstition anymore, the result: life expectancy has more than doubled. Lets not go back to the middle ages to a time of Christian dominance or ,as its more rightly known, the dark ages. I know you say you havent read much on the subject but given its such a key feature of modern theological debate perhpas reading a bit about it might be illuminating. Please check out Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea by Carl Zimmer I have read many book son the subejct and this is easily the best and most readable. Just give it a try.

"I look around and see the imprint of design so I see a designer." Just because something looks designed doesnt mena it is designed, Darwin showed that. " sense the connection in a myriad of ways so I believe this God desires a relationship. "Do you really think its wise for people to base their beliefs on what they sense rather than on proper evidence? Im sure Osama bin Laden feels he has a real relationship with god and thhat god wants him to kill non Muslims. "I have 100,000 of thousands of answered prayers, therefore I believe God is listening." you are just data mining. Im sure there are loads of answered prayers, just as there are loads of unaswered prayers. If we want to know if something is true we have to take the whole data set, not just the bits of it you like. Lets suppose you claim can predict thhe outcome of a coin toss, you throw the coin 10 times and get the answer right 50% of the time. What should we conclude? Should we say you cant predict becuase you did no better than chance or do we ignore the times you failed and just count the times you got it right and conclude you can see the future? what you are doing with prayer is equivalent to the latter. Im sure I have givne this example before but here it is again. On 9/11 a few hijackers took over planes with hundreds of passengers. Its likely the hijackers prayed to Allah for their mission to be a success and the passengers prayed to god for them to fail (as most were American and Americanns are overwhelmingly Christian). What happens if we believe in prayer? we have to conclude it was Allah who answered the prayers. The alternative is simply not to believe in prayer. 6 million jews were killed in the holocaust, Im sure many of them prayed to be saved and they werent,they worked as slaves and then killed, are you including them when you say prayers are answered?

You look awfully young to have grand children

apologies for the above text, the section that just numbers and so on is becuase i pasted in the hebrerw text and I guess this forum cant display it.

"actually it says keep it holy (which means set apart from God.) the Jewish scribes added many additional laws to the sabbath. So many that Christ had to clarify that the sabbath was made for man. Paul went on to say let no man judge you by what sabbath you keep. jC didn't change the original intent. He clarified the misunderstanding " It does say keep the Sabbath day holy, but it doesn’t only say that. It also says quiet clearly “But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, “ So it seems pretty unambiguous don’t do any work on the Sabbath, not just keep it holy. That is one of the ten commandments. So for those that say we should follow the bible for our morality should surely agree that we should arrest those that work on the Sabbath. That would surely put all DZ’s out of business straight away. Whether or not the Jewish scribes added additional laws to the sabath was not my point. My point was that the law of the Sabbath is in the 10 commandments clear as day and thhe punishment is also in there clear as day: טו שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים, יֵעָשֶׂה מְלָאכָה, וּבַיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן קֹדֶשׁ, לַיהוָה; כָּל-הָעֹשֶׂה מְלָאכָה בְּיוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, מוֹת יוּמָת. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Now if Jesus and god are one then that’s him saying kill all Sabbath breakers. Perhaps when the bible says put Sabbath breakers to death its just a metaphor right?

"Christ clarified man's understanding of that law in Luke 14, stating the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath " Which of these statements is false? The 10 commandments is a moral law Christ didnt come to change the moral law In the 10 commandments one cannot break the sabbath In the OT the punishment for breaking the sabbath is death Jesus said its okay to break the sabbath Clarification? contradiction more like. "I know of NO serious theologian that believes John 15 is a literal command. " Well that maybe true in your circles at this present moment of time. But perhaps you might consider Christianity is a bit bigger than that, it has spanned the globe and been around for thousands of years. A large number of people for a significant proportion of that time have acted entirley consistnetly with taking John 15 as a literal command.Whilst we can't go back and read their minds,the fact is they professed to follow jesus, jesus said burn unbelievers and they literally did it. Its all very well you saying current theologians that you know think its a metaphor, that doesnt alleviate the suffering of all those poeple that died horribly in Christian fires. if JFk said i want Castro dead and then the CIA had assasinated do you think we would take it seriously if he then he said "oh I was talking metaphorically". "The only way to not have people misuse what you say is to say nothing at all. But alas, even that will not suffice, as some have taken Christ's silence on subjects such as homosexuality and slavery as his approval" Well perhpas that would have been better.You say Christ is silent on homesexuals and slavery but you forget one thing. Is Christ not god in human form? And is that god not the same god as the one who wrote/inspired the OT? and does not the OT condenm homo sexuals to death?Doesn't the bible have rules on how to treat slaves instead of simply condemming it? All of this is entriley consistent with it being the morality of ancient men rather than the teaching of an all just god.

"How would you start that? Religion has been with mankind since the beginning. I don't think it is going anywhere. I beleve similar arguments were used for slavery. Attitudes can change. In My own country a recent Mori poll showed 62% of people think human nature gives us our sense of right and wrong;only 27% believed it came from religion. Rational argument has made a difference and may continue to do so. Many religions which were once dominant eg Greek, Norse, Roman are now virtually exitinct. Whilst I dont predict the end of our current religions any time soon, one can never rule it out some time in the future. "How about a text where he says that and is not using fire as a metaphor about hell (absence from God) Hell cannot literally be dark and have fire " Ive given the text but here it is again: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)T You may say it is a metaphor but that is just your opinion.if it is a metahor for hell why do men gather them as sticks? Surely the implies action here on Earth? The facts are that many Christians through the ages have not agreed with you and the result is people beng burnt alive, that is a historical fact. They believed they were following Christs words. As I said before if Christ is god and can see the future he would know these events would occur and said somethiNG like "never kill in my name" - he didn't. "He was refering to moral law, not cultural laws, like dietary and ceremonial law. " Again that is your opinion and Im glad you have it. but the sad fact is many christians dont agree with you hence groups like "god hates fags" again if god wanted people to not persecute home sexuals etc then perhaps he could have been clearer. Furthermore you say moral law; well for example in the OT breaking the sabath is one of the 10 commandments, surely, a moral law? The penalty for transgressing this law is death. Why dont we follow the teachings of the bible and execute sabath breakers?

Im not sure how getting rid of men can be done through peaceful means. Getting rid of religion can be, although obviously its not very likely any time soon. Should Christ be followed when he said his opponenets should be burnt? He was also challeneged on whehter he had come to change the old testament laws and he said no. So presumably we should kill gays, religious opponenets, sabbath breakers etc. These were laws given by god and as I understantd Christian theology Christ=god.

Bad ideas can have bad consequences. Take nationalism and racism in Europe. These were popular ideas until WWII. After the war these ideas were discredited, there has been very little fighting within Europe since. Widespread beliefs can change and that change can have a posiitive effect. Of course if we remove one cause of conflict , for example, religion, it does not mean there will be no more conflicts, but its not unreasonable to suggest there may be less.

But surely the key issue is the effects of religion on society as a whole. For example, the belief in the after life may make it easier to cope with death. But there is a price for society to pay for this widespread belief and that is others are less afraid to die and are more likely to fight for what they see as a holy cause. they are also more likely to kill if they believe they are saving others from hell. Here's a little list I found thhat shows religion is at least partly responsible for many of the current conflicts in the world. This of course doenst include historical ones. Afghanistan:Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues. Bosnia: Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers. Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002. Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability. East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable. India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable. Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed. Iraq Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily degenerating. Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete. Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Major battle in Lebanon during mid-2006. No resolution appears possible. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks. Philippines Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7 South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. The situation in mid-2006 is degenerating. Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants. 8 Thailand Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist. The army has seized power and has agreed to talks with the rebels. Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. * Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year

"Study the New Testament. Please report back and show us where Jesus instructs us to mistreat others. sure "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)Think youll find quite a few Chrsitians did indeed burn their fellows just as Christ would have known they would, given he can see the future. Furthermore why are you only looking at the NT? last time I looked Christian bibles had the OT and NT. "Meanwhile, you list slavery as a bad thing but fail to understand the role religion played in putting a stop to the practice." Actally during the slavery debates that raged in the USA in the 19th century many Christians were inspired by their religion to defend slavery. I will quote you some examples: "Such were the nature and extent of slavery in the world, when our Saviour appeared, to proclaim "peace on earth, and good will to men"--to preach the glad tidings of salvation to a ruined world--to redeem us from sin and everlasting death, and to "open the kingdom of Heaven to all believers." And how did he regard it? What had he to say of this institution, as he found it existing among the people he came to save? Did he condemn it as anti-scriptural and unjust? Did he enjoin on his disciples an immediate emancipation of their slaves? Did he so much as caution his followers against purchasing them in the future? Not a word, disapproving the practice, ever fell from his lips. "A.E. Miller, Printer to The Protestant Episcopal Society for the Advancement of Christianity in South-Carolina, 1837): "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America 1,2 bullet "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist pastor, South Carolina.

“The problems in the world can be traced not to religion, but rather to human nature” That is nonsense. Have you read anything AQ have to say, they are very clear that religion is their key motivation for their attacks. All their actions, words etc are consistent with that. Of course they are just one example of many. The list of religiously inspired acts of violence is immense. Let’s not forget that it’s not in a human beings nature to blow themselves up, it has to be programmed into them by religion. “Atheists cite wrong things that have been done "in the name of religion" as an excuse to avoid any serious discussion of God. However, a glance at the evidence suggests quite the opposite; that is, that these bad things occurred as the result of people failing to live up to Biblical teachings.” No, it’s not an excuse to avoid a discussion of god; it’s a very serious point to demonstrate that religion can have a very negative effect on society. The problem is that biblical teachings are not clear; if they were, there would not be so many different styles of Christianity, or even Judaism for that matter. Let’s consider some of the worst crimes in history; Genocide – condoned in the bible Slavery – condoned in the bible Brutal Invasions condoned in the bible Repression – condoned in the bible I would suggest the problem is that people do follow the bible. Yes Hitler was a Catholic, the actions of the Nazi were inspired in part by the New Testament and here is the evidence: In Mein Kampf Hitler wrote the following “"I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." Echoed in a speech given to the Reichstag, 1938 “I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work. " Of course Hitler did not at alone, the Nazis would have been nothing if not for his henchman and more importantly the surrounding culture they came from. Lets deal with his henchmen first, the other leading Nazis; “Christ is the first great enemy of the Jews.... that is why Judaism had to get rid of him. For he was shaking the very foundations of its future international power. The Jew is the lie personified.” Joseph Goebbels “God gave the savoir to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany. “ Herman Goring In ideological training I forbid every attack against Christ as a person, since such attacks or insults that Christ was a Jew are unworthy of us and certainly untrue historically. -Heinrich Himmler Consider this quote form a Nazi school book , "When you see a cross, then think of the horrible murder by the Jews on Golgotha” Look at an SS buckle, the phrase” god is with us” is written clear as day on the front. Whether or not Hitler really was motivated by Christianity can be debated, he made often contradictory statement. But what is clear is that he used religion as a way to whip up hatred and this hatred led to the death of millions of people. So religion was clearly a problem. Think of the larger cultural context in Germany, which was heavily influenced by Luther. What did Luther say in his writing? This form “On the Jews and Their Lies “Jerusalem was destroyed over 1400 years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about 300 years… During that time they held us captive and killed us… So we are even at fault for not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for 300 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then… We are at fault in not slaying them” Still want to claim that Christianity had no part in the motivation of the Nazis? The facts are clear: the brutal treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was at least in part inspired by Christian beliefs. Now lets deals with your statement “Nazi Germany. Soviet Russia. China. Cuba. North Korea. Etc. Etc. The common denominator in these governments is an institutionalized atheism and a brutal hostility to a Judeo-Christian world view.“The religion of secular humanism has led to the brutal treatment of millions of people by their own governments (see examples cited above.)” You are clearly wrong re Nazi Germany but you are right that the other states were run by Atheists, but I’m afraid you show your political ignorance by implying atheism as the cause. Yes atheism is one common denominator but so is that fact they are were all men, or that they were all hetro sexual , or any other number of things. The real cause of the repression of these regimes was their communism. Communism leads to repression, atheism does not. To demonstrate my point consider Western Europe and especially Scandinavia, these are the most secular societies on Earth, but are they brutally repressive? No they are not, so your argument falls apart. Yes communists are atheists but atheists are not communists, do you understand the difference.?

Whilst there may be cases where religion can provide comfort eg at a funeral, I belive overall it is a huge problem. The list of conflicts round the world and through history that have at least partial religious motivation is very long one. Moreover the belief in after life makes it more likely that people will fight in wars, the belief in the things without evidence leads to eroneous views on medicine, the guilt of whitches etc etc. Look at Arabia today, societies which have are the most dominated by religion on the Earth, they are backward, repressed and impovrished. Look at what happned in Europe when it was dominated by religion - it was known as the dark ages.

wow that tuneel link gr8, any reviews? How big is it/ Looks bedford size.

Well i studied for 8 years in hebrew, did you?Do you even know any hebrew? Are you seriosuly suggesting that the wirters of the bible never used the names of places in a literal context? Do i have to dredge out a long list of exanples? "they seldon refferred to themsleves that way" referring to themselves? This passage is about referring to a location, not to themselves anyway. Furthermore even if you had a point about the Hebrew which you dont, it woud be irrelevant since there are no originla copies of the gospels so its nothing but speculation as to what language they were even written in or who wrote them; could have been hebrew, maybe Aramamaic, maybe Greek. we dont know. all we do know is that there is no mention of judea in the text under question. You want us to believe that the author or authors (we dont know which) meant Judea even though they didnt say it. why? Becuase its convenient fo you to believe that.Thats very common in biblical interpretation; people make it mean what they want it to mean. when they want it to be literal, maybe for example "love your neighhbour"its literal, when they want it to be metaphorical perhaps for example god rested on the 7th day ,or when jesus said i didnt come to bring peace I came to bring a sword, its metaphorical. What should we conclude? That the bible cannnot be used as any definitive guide as to how to live our lives. People put their own spin on it, no matter what it actually says,I suspect they always have and always will.If it were the work of some all powerful god then he would know this was going to happen and maybe could have made his intentions more clear, the fact that its so open to interpretation only strengthens the case that its a fallible work written by fallible men.