AFFI

Thank you very much for sharing this experience with us - I will be giving this thought provoking post plenty of thought but my initial reaction is that you have been totally effectice in the way you expressed yourself in your explination of this situation. Sincerely, thank you very much! MAke it a great day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

I was well aware of the disadvantages of the SOS system vs. the 2-handle w/ RSL when I posted this. I disagree that "the" reason is what you state, although it is certainly ONE reason. Other reasons could be: - jumper simply doesn't think of it in a high-stress situation, regardless of training - jumper does not have time to disconnect RSL - jumper is unable to disconnect RSL because they can't see it due to rig distortion and/or their wrap is violent What I am looking to learn here is if this "option" of pulling a small tab in an awkward, unfamiliar location during a wrap is really practical. So far only one person has responded who had an RSL, and he has not told his story. I encourage that person and any future poll takers who had an RSL to give details of how difficult they found it to release the RSL or why they did not/were unable to. I agree entirely, and I'm not saying the SOS is a replacement for the RSL. I am merely saying this: 1) the SOS system is unquestionably simpler. 2) IF you want an RSL on every jump for added saftey, the SOS will do the job just as well 3) It could be argued that wraps are relatively rare compared to the sum of all emergencies, and furthermore that the potential inability to release the RSL, combined with the significant possibility that cutting away from a wrap with an RSL connected, though unwise, will not cause any harm, makes the advantage of the RSL over SOS very, very slight. As such it could be said that the benefits of SOS over RSL outweigh the risks. Since that's the argument I keep seeing from RSL enthusiasts, I'm surprised the SOS is so rare. (I, for the record, would never jump the SOS system) Hi Jared, First off, I am not debating with you, I would rather to think of it as we are learning and exploring possibilities together so do not take any of my comments as confrontational but rather friendly and endeavor to have a mutually beneficial learning experience. As a USPA Solo Freefall Instructor I try to adhere to the recommendations set forth in the SIM2006 so I will reference that book as a source of information. You are an experienced skydiver, a rigger and intelligent so I suspect that you are familiar with the teaching aspect of the sport somewhat. First off, what we teach is avoidance, that is the best way to deal with a canopy collision entanglement (wrap), we can probably universally agree on that. There are varying ways to deal with differing circumstances of an imminent collision. In another thread someone suggested that if the lower jumper cutaway and their reserve deployed by means of an RSL the lower jumper may clear the situation and the jumper on top can clear themselves of the canopy wrapped around them after the tension of the suspended weight of the lower jumper is relieved. I do not do CReW so my knowledge is limited in this arena but that comment seems to make sense. The SIM states that “RSLs can complicate certain emergency procedures such as cutting away from an entanglement after a collision. In the event of multiple cutaways and if altitude allows, jumpers should stagger reserve openings to avoid possible canopy collisions”. So if an RSL is utilized it is best to disconnect it before initiating the main canopy release in this situation and although there is the possibility that the RSL cannot be found before the disconnect of the main canopies it would have to necessitate that both jumpers be unable to disconnect their RSL’s to be unable to stager their reserve deployments. I do not know how likely or unlikely this would be in reality since we are exploring a hypothetical situation that rarely happens. Utilization of SOS systems by both jumpers would make staggering of both cutaways difficult, so I believe that the RSL gives a better chance of staggering the reserve deployments or that the jumpers using SOS systems stagger their cutaways, they are recommended by the SIM to remain altitude aware and communicate to one another their intentions. “jumper simply doesn't think of it in a high-stress situation, regardless of training” The key words in my statement is “Proper” which should include simulating high stress situations as closely as possible and “Continued” which indicated repeated acts of “Proper” training including practicing the disconnect of an RSL in a hanging harness while getting the Truman treatment. Although it is not a guarantee, repetition is how we better ensure that we do not freeze in a high stress situation. Refer to the Safety Check on page 7 in the November 2005 Parachutist written by Jim Crouch that addresses this issue. "jumper does not have time to disconnect RSL " The SIM does address this issue and recommends that if the jumpers are too low to cutaway (below 1000’agl) to deploy reserves to better ensure that the jumpers survive the landing and warns against the use of an RSL or SOS system in this scenario. Again avoidance is a key here, and there is also the necessary scenario that both jumpers are unable to disconnect their RSL’s - the SIM also warns that both jumpers may have to ride in one canopy. This sure would be a shitty position to find oneself in. As for canopy collisions that happen lower than the base leg or the altitude which the high performance landing is initiated recent history has illustrated that this is a situation that is very difficult to survive. The SIM states that the lower canopy has the right away, the high performance canopy pilot should plan an out and should use discretion and good judgment as to when to abort. Overall I would not consider myself an “RSL Fanatic”, but rather a USPA instructor that try’s my best to adhere to the recommendations of the USPA whose seal is on my license to instruct. As I stated on a posting in a similar thread there is not a one size fits all answer for each skydiver and the decision to utilize and RSL/Skyhook device should be made once a skydiver is experienced and educated enough to decide whether not follow the USPA recommendation or have a compelling reason as defined by the USPA to not utilize an RSL type device in their skydiving equipment. Thanks for the oppourtunity to further explore the use of the RSL and the USPA's recommendations in modern skydiving. I am looking forward to any comments you will add that will further enlighten the readers of this forum that will make us all safer and better educated skydivers. Make it a great day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Yeah, but not for very long! HA HA HA - youve got 3 seconds...

Personally I find it beneficial to see what other U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructors around the country are doing to better evaluate my practices utilizing a scale of comparison that may expose deficiencies in the way I am conducting my training. I have learned from the postings of other instructors and am thankful that there is such a forum that allows the collective genius to enable me the opportunity to better myself. I personally have learned from all the comments made in this string of postings. Thanks Gravity Girl for generating some intriguing and thought provoking dialogue and to everyone else for giving me an opportunity to learn, thus making me a better instructor. Make it a great day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Hey, there is no need to stay away from my sister!

Just make sure you have enough arm strength to flare because you arms might be worn out after flying so far (yuck yuck yuck)...

You have 10 jumps so you have some experience, but there is something I heard someone say recently that there Old skydivers and Bold skydivers but there aren’t very many Old Bold skydivers. I think the person who made the comment was implying that it is adventageous to remain teachable at any experience level. I hear a lot of people say that they set it and forget it or pretend it isn’t there and concentrate on thier procedures and that is a good attitude in the aspect of understanding the importance of good form and practice in executing EP's but I do know more than one skydiver who fired thier Cypress by making radical performance maneuvers in the range of altitude that the Cypress fires at and ended up with two parachutes out and some have even died this way. Good rule of thumb that I live by, train EP's like my life depends on it and no performance maneuvers below an altitude I am not willing to cutaway from (disclaimer: hey, that wasn’t a hook turn, it was a front riser carve!). Make it a great day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Learn all you can about this issue and learn to minimize the probability and severity but one thing I can share with you from my personal experience - Once when I was low to the ground, say 30 or 40 feet my canopy bucked like a bronco and I looked up and was distracted for just a moment and stopped paying attention to the planet I was about to land on and my landing was much less than perfect resulting in a badly sprained ankle - I got lucky. Lesson learned, when I am that low to the ground looking up at the canopy did not benefit me at all and what good did taking my eyes off the ground do me? Now whenever I am low to the ground I stay focused on my landing and adjust my reactions to changing conditions accordingly by staying focused on what is important - landing safely... Make it a great day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Billvon gives good advice on this subject - I would add to talk to your instructors and hae someone who is qualified to teach this aspect of the gear to you first hand. Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

You answer this question as the basis of your posting – because as obvious as it may seem perhaps it is not, the jumper has the OPTION of disconnecting the RSL when it is recommended they do so. The reason skydivers who utilize and RSL device who fail to disconnect it when they should is a lack of proper and continued training as they progress through their skydiving careers. Read the Safety Check on page 7 and the article on the RSL on page 50 of the November 2005 issue of Parachutist Magazine and your questions will be answered. I often read that use of a device might have prevented certain fatalities but how about saying “Continued and Proper training might have prevented this fatality”? How many skydivers make checking their altimeter BEFORE attempting to fix a potentially correctable partial malfunction part of their daily EP practice drills? How many skydivers make actually disconnecting their an RSL when recommended they so do actually make it part of their daily EP practice drills? For that matter how many skydivers practice EP’s even HALF as much as they practice their freefall maneuvers (The November 2005 Safety Check addresses this). If the poll goes as I SUSPECT it may there will be few individuals who participate because – A) Not everyone has had a Wrap or Two out B) This topic has been addressed ad nauseam for the past few days Perhaps a better question for the poll might be “How many skydivers actually make altimeter checks or disconnecting their RSL when recommended they do so actually make it part of their daily EP practice drills?” • Every time I practice. • Never thought about adding it to my training routine. • Practice? Train? Prepare for life saving EP’s? What is that? Quote “I know maybe 3 experienced jumpers who…”Quote I know experienced jumpers who do (and don’t do) a lot of things, that doesn’t make it a good idea for everyone. Make it a great Day! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

That is the whole point, get differing views and why people think the way they do, then make a more educated choice for yourself. I'm glad you used this thread to that end. Good job. Derek Ditto, very good job. Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

I had heard that Rico has taken a turn for trhe worse with an infection - does anyone have any information? Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Standard rules state you must cite to source..Sorry. Deal, Ron told me that "..." - they say that flattery is being copied, there are many more things I have learned from you and others here too many to cite the originators but I will try to give props like "I heard from some skydiver somewhere" - Fact is I am just a parrot anyway, I have made nothing up in life except the joke about being abducted and analy probed by an alien - too bad it was my Uncle Juan!

I always heard that the day of giving blood is a goood evening to go drinking but get a designated driver! The SIM states on page 21 "The instructor also needs to know about any recent donations of blood." but there is no time table given, if it is the IRM I do not remember. The DZ policy where I work is in the last 24 hours for Scuba or Blood donations but after reading this thread I feel compelled to invistigate it further. I have a good friend who is an MD, I will send her an inquiry... Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

What a brilliant line - may I use it as my own??? Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

This post might take 5 whole minutes of your life to read but it might be worth it… I don’t personally utilize an RSL but my wife does, I insist on it because I believe it increases her safety as she is still a beginner (only 100 jumps), has not had a chop yet and I love her so I make certain she is trained up and jumps well maintained Cypress equipped gear. For reasons all of which have been debated here I choose not to use an RSL (I practice my EP procedures religiously, have jumped DAILY for over 5 years, fly camera equipment on almost every skydive I make and I RARELY deploy below 4k). If I did not fly a camera on virtually every jump I would utilize a skyhook system in my Micron to lead by EXAMPLE (I actually have my students pin check me before we board and exit - etcetera). There is not a “single answer solution” to this debate that applies to everyone. Although this thread had produced some intriguing thought provoking and interesting debate lets not loose sight of the fact that this thread was started by a skydiver at the very west end of the novice spectrum, just off student status. There are very compelling arguments on both sides of this topic but the question is should a beginner skydiver with 35 jumps utilize and RSL/Skyhook in their equipment until they are able to make a better informed decision? I think from what I have seen in this thread is mostly in the YES category and the person who started this thread has been given some compelling information on both sides of the fence to contemplate. The idea is to skydive and not get killed doing it, this months incident reports illustrated that “experience” does not make a skydiver invincible. Although limited, in my experience (both as a cocky bastard and a teachable student who realized he was lucky to be alive) I believe that when I had 32 or 320 jumps I was much more likely to make a self induced fatal decision than I am now with over 3300 most of which I made in the last 5 years. If I work at two DZ’s, and one teaches two hands per handle and one teaches one hand per handle I will teach as the DZ I am representing asks me to. As a U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructor it is my duty as a representative of the U.S.P.A. to adhere to their safety recommendations, so I don’t take students through clouds, in heavy winds and which does recommend that skydivers of all experience levels incorporate and RSL type device in their gear unless they fall into a specific category which investigation suggests that an RSL device might create a safety hazard. Jim Crouch wrote an in depth article about this issue on page 50 of the November 2005 issue of Parachutist Magazine. So as a U.S.P.A. Solo Freefall Instructor I teach the students I work with every conceivable aspect of the proper utilization of an RSL device and recommend they incorporate the use of one until they have a situation that necessitates they disconnect it or they one day fall into a specific category which investigation suggests that an RSL device might create a safety hazard. It is my duty to the U.S.P.A., it is my duty to properly inform and train the human beings whose lives are put into my hands to train them to do something inherently dangerous and it is my duty to myself so I can sleep at night. If the U.S.P.A. recommended that I create violations in my value system than I would not be a U.S.P.A. member much less an instructor but they do not – AND – I do not necessarily agree with every word in the SIM but the seal that I stamp on cards is a U.S.P.A. seal, the seal that is on my license to instruct is a U.S.P.A. seal. The same holds true in my spiritual life, I am given only 10 rules and it is my duty to adhere to them and I do so as best as I can. That is not to say I have never committed a BSR violation or a sin – I just do the best I can and try to get better as I get older. I really do love all you people out there, from the crazy non teachable know it alls to the gurus and to those who are in the middle. I learn from all of you and although it may not seem like it all the time because I will often plays devils advocate to generate input for the collective genius I really am appreciative of all the contribution everyone makes. It shows that all of you care about something. To BORG2050 - I strongly suggest you adhere to all of the U.S.P.A.'s reccomendations concerning every aspect of skydiving AND utilization of an RSL device and PERSONALLY I would tell you to buy yourself a vector with a Skyhook system because I believe in the engineering put into the design of Bill Booth's products... More later… Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

People have gone in from unstable reserve deployments. No line twists on the reserve is better than line twists. Therefore RSL's make things worse more often than they make things better. Derek Ahhhh, but I was not incorporating an RSL on the jump that I had to kick out of line twists. Truth of the matter I was still a total novice skydiver with only around 200 jumps and was in the “thought I knew it all” stage and deploying lower than my hard deck for my license level allowed me to - I was out of altitude and out of time when I finally initiated EP's which was not long after I deployed the main. In fact I fired both handles so quickly with very bad form that had my cutaway handle had a hard extraction there is a very good chance I may have had an out of sequence reserve deployment. So I got a repack and went on with my low pull phase. That is why I endeavor to be patient with jumpers of the “know it all” mentality because I understand completely what it is like to be in a testosterone drenched stupor reeking with self righteous indignation and totally convinced that my superior intellect placed me head and shoulders above those that should be competing in the special Olympics (I.E. everyone but me). Ultimately gravity taught me some lessons that I was fortunate enough to survive and to learn from – gravity awarded me a level of humility that taught me that I can actually learn a lot from others of all experience levels if I just shut my mouth and open not only my ears but my mind as well. As a result my subsequent chop from a bag lock went perfectly in the EP executions aspect. People have gone in with a downplane, people have cutaway a downplane and the RSL tension knotted around the reserve flap and they went in, people have done everything right and still died - we can and are debating this ad nauseam but the bottom line is shit happens and when it is your time there is nothing you can do about it... More later… Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

I have been on location at DZ's for many cutaways utilizing an RSL. How many? Couldent say other than to say MANY. Not once has the jumper burned in but rather 100% landed safely. My limited experience suggests that in every instance I have been present for not once did the situation worsen for the jumper because the end result was landing safely. I personally know what it is like to kick linetwists out of a reserve due to an unstable reserve activation but the end result was landing my reserve safely rather that landing the spinning piece of crap that was above my head. So I am not cewrtain that I would suscribe to the notion that use of an RSL makes things worse the majority of the time... Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

There, I fixed it for ya... this is the way it's actually done in the real world. Good corrections... Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

How about 4: Reserve Handle RSL/Skyhook AAD Dislodged pin (it happens...) Good freaking call Heather! I have seen this one and watched a friend ride in spinning and screaming! Luckily he is made of rubber, things went his way. Even though I witnessed this I have overlooked the dislogged pin as the fourth. Thanks for reminding me that I dont have it all figured out! Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

I wonder how many dead skydivers that died skydiving (not waterskiing) made similar comments before they bought the big ticket becuz they were yanking on something other than thier reserve handle for the rest of thier life? I have debated making this posting – and I am in no way suggesting that the person that made this comment or anyone in this forum is gong to become a statistic in the fatalities columns – in fact if I could have one wish granted to me by some omnipotent being with that stipulation that the granted wish could not benefit me in any way it would be that there would never be a skydiving fatality again ever. But that is as unrealistic as world peace. But what if everyone became teachable? What if everyone became open to the idea that theirs is not the only way? What if everyone quit bickering so much? Some of the postings here are nothing more than evasive personal attacks. What if everyone could calmly agree to disagree based on their assessment of FACTS rather than hearsay, assumptions and made up bullshit just to make one look cool hip experienced and intelligent? What if I just quit typing now? Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Ditto on the frustration and the KISS - Keep It Simple Smartass!!! (Keep It Simple STUPID doesn’t apply since there is an abundance of genius mentality here that has it ALL figured out).

"experience shows that such devices may not be completely reliable and should be used only as a backup to proper training and procedures." Something here I do not understand, please bear with me… Are there jumpers out there that rely or “depend” on their ADD? I don’t think I understand the meaning of “dependence”. Personally, I started jumping with an ADD when I began working in skydiving because the DZ I was working at required all staff members to utilize an ADD in their equipment, until that point I jumped without one. I personally have always trained and jumped as if I did/do not have one but still turn it on whenever I jump. Does dependence mean that jumpers will just let their ADD deploy for them whenever they cannot get their main out or after they cut away without making an attempt to deploy their reserve and just let the ADD get it? That would be like not using your brakes in your car but just let the airbag take care of everything isn’t it? I guess the reason I am having trouble understanding is because I cannot comprehend someone not training based solely on the fact that they have an ADD. The lack of continued training amongst many skydivers after acquisition of their license astonishes me, that too is beyond my comprehension. Back in the “old days” was it uncommon for someone to display an apathetic attitude toward continued training as is commonplace nowadays? Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

While it certainly is your choice, you're displaying incredibly poor judgement. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. Quite frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can come to a differing conclusion. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks. The advantages of RSL's greatly exceed their risks.

Good posting, my opinion of the advice you got concerning disconnecting the RSL when you were renting notwithstanding - I got similar advice when I was a beginner from an AFFI, and now that I have a few thousands jumps I may not still be a “beginner” but still am and always will be a “student”. The comment you made “For students and new jumpers that don't do CRW, fly camera, etc it is probably safer to have one than not” is right on target other than the word “probably”, it is what it is and looking back at incident reports over the years RSL devices might have made a difference for a lot of people. This month’s parachutist has a good article on RSL, not that I agree with every word in it but a good article nonetheless and gives skydivers good information to think about. Bottom line is we are skydivers and fortunate enough to live in a reasonably free society with the aspect of our lives concerning RSLs up to the discretion of the individual skydiver. Curious if anyone out there knows how many fatalities in the past 10 years could have been prevented with an RSL and how many were caused because the jumper was using one? I cant think of an incident that concluded that the “Cause of death was due to and RSL”… Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…