stevo

everybody understands the solution to fix which proplem? people not being able to count? come on! multiple passes? BS. about the same total delay between groups needs to be taken with the current exit order(flat-vertical-flat) at perris and elsinore as before(vertical-flat), i'll do the math for you if you want. exit order/separation and canopy traffic are separate issues but there is a direct correlation between the two, the current exit order is creating more canopy traffic and i think it's easier to teach people how much separation time to give and to fly there canopy off the line of jump run until the next group opens than it is to teach them how to safely fly there canopy in order to avoid collisions. put up a sign in the back of the plane with a chart that tells people how much time to give at different wind speeds.

always look cool. MANgenta, fushia, purple, pink. DON'T do it!! it's really not OK. ps, you don't look cool getting loaded into an ambulance, so don't do that either.

...because canopy traffic is far less of a problem than exit separation. just check the fatality reports. how hard is it to count to 20? apperently it's so difficult that putting people out in an order that will put them all in the pattern at the same time is the only solution and it's working out great. let's not change a thing. way to think it through. Quote

the tunnel is going to be 10' and 800 hp, is it safe to assume that this will not produce freefly air speed (155-160mph)?

separate landing areas is just another big sky theory, still doesn't fix the problem. people need to be taught how, when, where and why to fly thier canopies. otherwise people are still going to collide with each other trying to land in the same place at the same time. every load i'm on i see at least one person: -land the wrong direction -sashay on there base/final -spiral into the pattern or while in the pattern -fly the wrong direction pattern -fly over the runway -fly over/thru "designated swooping area" -overshoot/fly over the entire landing area -hook it right thru traffic -fly right in on top of each other -race down into a conjested pattern 270's into traffic are in the spotlight because of rescent events, why not work at getting everyone propery educated on how to avoid collisions by properly staging our landings.

here's a suggestion. educate/teach people on how to stagger your approach so ONE person is landing/in the pattern at a time. the typical otter i'm on has 20 people, 2 tandems, that leaves 16 people to land together. if everyone focused from the second they open on finding where there spot in the pattern is, instead of waiting til your base leg, then everryone should have a very clean shot at having the landing area all to themselves. modern day canopies have plenty of range in there descent rate to allow this to happen. do the math. and if you can't get into the landing area with no one around you, 540 or straight in approach, you f*cked up, so land off/out and stay alive. separate landing areas are great but you still see people cruising over the pond at 300 ft with no clue that someone is 400 feet right above them about the land in the "separate high performance landing area". -everyone gets into the pattern to land at the same time. WHY?? because there is no one telling them that that's a good way to die!

makes a lot of sense, but AFF is normally not the first group to follow FFers, it's the "high" pulling RW group(s) that give you a 10 or 12 count. regardless, i believe putting FFers out in the middle is creating more of a probablity of fatalities due to traffic. most full otters do a second pass with only two student groups left on it, why not spread the people out a little more on each pass. there's a serious problem at many drop zones with landing pattern/traffic and i believe that the fewer people under canopy at the same time will help save lives.

Exit order is: Boarders RW (large to small) freefly (large to small) RW high pull AFF tandems wingsuiters this is the same exit order at perris and elsinore, with high pulling RW also exiting after FFers. Question still stands. if vertical separation is not a consideration, why is it safe for some RW groups to exit after FFers and not others? 4-Way RW or AFF, horizontal separation is horizontal separation no mattter who is after you. this exit order prevents as many in air collitions as the old exit order, but puts everyone under canopy in the pattern at the same time, regardless of canopy size.

Exit order where i jump is Flat then Vertical followed by more Flat fliers. by having the FFers exiting after RW groups we have more people in the pattern than when FFers used to exit first, in the past FFers would be on the ground sometimes before the first RW group even opened due to the fact that they get to opening alt. 20-30 seconds faster and are typically on small/fast canopies. let's face facts, more traffic equals more deaths. has there ever been a fatality from an Belly Flier stiking a FFer in freefall who exited before him? if the largest RW group exited after the FFers shouldn't they have enough experience and knowledge to give them additional separation? the Flat fliers that currently exit after the FFers sure don't and who can blame them they only have 40 jumps, but it's OK because they are pulling high, yeah right! anyhow Mr. Burke says vertical separation is unreliable. so is this about safety or about who gets the most coveted seats in the plane? the incidents over the past 6 years prove Bill Booth's point that skydivers are not concerned about safety. we solved a problem that never existed with a solution that still has one group of belly fliers exiting after the last Vertical fliers at the same time adding to a problem that does exist, more canopy traffic, canopy collisions and fatalities. if drift in freefall is the real factor for the exit order, then Vertical fliers should exit after ALL the flat fliers, but they don't, it's politics and it's BS and it's getting people killed. i vote we change it back.