Joyner

Probably a miles walk back. But we got a ride on a golf cart. The reason I got down on the course first was to film them landing of course and then, we had DZ policy to keep the group together if there was not a chance of getting back. Wonder why I choose such a public place?!

I was once asked by 5 newbies if I could film their first 5-way nude jump. I volunteered to spot the plane for them as they were all not very good at it. I was smirking all they way up in my camera suit. Partly cloudy day, and I take the spot out LOOOONNGGG (right over a local golf course). I got down and landed first on the golf course, quickly followed by 5 guys screaming and yelling at me. I bought them a beer, didn't charge them for the video but: Price for beer $8, price for a jump $12, watching their faces as they land PRICELESS!!!!!

Well consider this: My gear is fully TSO'd (Javelin, PD-R, Stiletto). I am within the 120 day repack, but the repack was done by my rigger in Sweden, who isn't FAA certified (but certified by the Swedish equivalent). There is a seal on the reserve (we have that rule too). Will I still need a repack? Even if it is less than 120 days since it's been done? Reading the text it sounds like I must get the repack, which is silly to me since, my rigger packs according to the PD manual just like the FAA rigger would!?

Dr Strangelove: - This is the war room, you can't fight in here!

I could go on and on about the Big Lebowski! But I wont! Kevin Klein driving in England in the Movie "A fish called Wanda" -AAASSSSSSHOOOOOOLLLLE or -Hello Kkkkkkkeeeennnsss Pppppppeettss, limie fish! Fucking insects! Love that entire movie!

Not to start a pissing contest, I am just trying to constantly improve one important aspect of my skydiving and that is tracking. I have recently made a few solo jumps in my normal FS-suit with booties, no extra clothes or gloves. I was a bit surprised at how slow I could fall and that made me curious as to how slow others can fall during tracking. My Pro-Track mounted inside my Z1 full face gave me an average speed of 143 km/h (88,6 MPH), First half 139 km/h (86.1 MPH), second half 147 km/h, 91 MPH (a bit faster to go to box position before deploying) Might add that normal box-position speed for me is 192 km/h, 119 MPH. I know that vertical speed isn't the only aspect of a good track, but as far as I can tell I have no problems distance wise compared to others.

Why don't you just put it inside the protec in the "hole" for your ear? A bit uncomfortable maybe, but not very! I jumped with an old style dytter like that for 150 jumps! And didn't think twice about it!

Working in the electronics field, I would suspect that the production cost is very low. Guessing less than $100. Considering the volume produced, and the fact that a unit more or less costs the same today as it did 11 years ago, suggests that the mark-up is rather large! Airtech or your dealer doing the mark-up? Probaly both!

Loading canopies too heavily isn't the problem. I watched more people at Perris just fly into the ground this last weekend than I have ever seen. Only using 1/3 of their flair capacity. Or not even that. Most of these people just don't know how to flare properly. They don't know the slow speed flight of their canopies. Rhino And those same people should be allowed to get what ever cannopy they want???? If they can't flair a lightly loaded cannopy, do you think they can hook, swoop, and flair a heavily loaded one? This statement only makes the regulation point even stronger! I'm all for it. I live in Sweden were we have similar regulations. People have accepted them, I have accepted them. I'm at just under 500 jumps, and I have absolutely no problem with these rules! I have also seen many half bad to lousy flairs just today by low timers (shifting winds). And knowing that those same people are not allowed to get a 2:1 loaded eliptical the next jump, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling!

You know there are different sizes of tube stows right? I use tubes, and they hold the lines snugg, but not hard!

My risers with stainless rings get pretty stiff. I soften them up regularly! I don't know how stiff they can get before they don't release. Needed or not? I don't know, rather safe than sorry!

Do you seriously feel that this training prepares the Joe Blow jumper to jump a hp elliptical right of student status? You sound a lot like me in that sense. Maybe we both listened and learned!? But do we stop there? Just because there will allways be others that will refuse to listen, lie cheat and steal their way into smaller cannopies, is that reason enough just to say "I know better, let Joe Blow next to me do what ever he wants"? As others have said! Grow in the sport (as a person I'd say), care about others around you!

Grow in the sport. Care for someone other than yourself. Ron I couldn't agree with you more Ron! I can't believe that in such a small community that we are, some people care so little for the person sitting next to them in the plane. Some people are so caught up in exercising their rights, that they don't realize that it's the exercising of that right that keeps them captive. Keep skydiving completely without rules, wait and see how many friends you loose in the process! And then come back and tell me it was all worth it!

I wouldn't dream of saying that! But I do feel that every reasonable action that can be taken to minimize the risks should and must be taken. I realize that there is a tradeof between accessibility and safety. As you say. Don't skydive and you are 100% sure you won't kill yourself skydiving, but is not a resonable action. Well what happens if one jumper with 2000 jumps and one with 30 jumps hooks in? The average is till 1000. I realize that experienced jumpers will still hook in and there is very little to be done there, he should have known better! (Note talking about deliberate hook turns). But wasn't there something we could have done for the guy at 30 jumps who didn't know sqaut? Did we give that guy ample time and opportunity to learn from his misstakes? That just doesn't make sence! What if there weren't any accidents at all, there would be no need for learning since everyone would be doing the right stuff in the first place since there never were any accidents! I refuse to look at fatalities as a necesary sacrifice for the rest of us to learn form. I look at them as an UNnecesary sacrifice. Of course learning from others misstakes is important! That is exactly my point! LEARN from what is happening and take appropriate action! Appropriate action in my book would be TRAINING! And the ONLY way to ensure that EVERYONE goes through propper training, is to have RULES not recomendations stating that! Is it recomended that you go through a student program? No it's required! Imagine this! A guy shows up at the DZ. "I want to jump, I have never jumped before, but there is a first for everything right!". Would you even consider with no training what so ever slap a rigg on him, fly him to 15 000 ft, kick him out the door "Vaja con dios dude!". No of course not! There is a student plan in place to give people ample opportunity to learn, before we let them jump on their own. Do you feel that the student plan today prepares the newbie engough to jump any cannopy on the market? What's the difference between to two examples?

When divided by the number of jumps YES! I would say they are very similar. But one very important difference is that in the US you do enough jumps every year to be able to analyze the fatality stats. In Sweden we have one fatality every to every other year on average. It hard to analyze those numbers since so much changes over the years (equipment, type of jumping and so on). But when you have 20-30 deaths every year you can see problem areas. And when I look at your numbers low turn stands out as the single most common cause of death. Does it really matter that you have the same ratio as the rest of the world? You still have 20-30 people die every year! Is that just an acceptable number. "Let them die". Or should something be done were something can be done? One might argue there is nothing to do. I argue there is something you can do to get these numbers down. Never mind the ratio!!!

Comon sence HASN'T worked so far! Look at the numbers! People will still hook in YES. But will so many? Rules seems to have worked in Sweden. I won't go as far as saing that they have worked. But fact is that we havn't had a single fatality due to low turns in 3 years and 400 000 jumps. (I don't have older stats than that). These rules are accepted and well thought of. I think that speeks for it self!

GREAT POINT!!!!! European cars RULE!

How many low turn injuries and deaths will it take before USPA slaps down rules on experience / training vs. cannopy type / size? I've been reading reports and I am horrified by the numbers! Why haven't USPA reacted? Why do they just accept all these deaths? I won't get into the actual technicalities of the rules needed. I think that topic has been beaten to death. I can just say that there are examples (Sweden for one), were rules seems to have had an apparent effect in getting injuries and deaths down! Has the time for rules come even to the US? I know the topic isn't easy. But I still ask the question. How much of your individual freedom are you willing to sacrifice for the better of the larger group? I think we all agree we can only benefit from a decrease in the number of deaths and injuries in our sport. Isn't it time to let go of some of that personal freedom, for the good of the team? Shit I come across as a complete communist, but I just hate reading about low turn deaths every other weekend!

Well maybe not said in those words, but my general point was that the stats are irrelevant. Push: Well put! I do agree that if you do everything right, you are more than resonably safe. Key word beeing resonably safe. Awarness of that still present risk even when you do everything right, makes you safe(r)! Statistics won't mean jack to the guy that dies or gets hurt on his first jump. And really stats don't mean jack to me either. Each and every one of us weighs the risk to the reward. Is the reward worth the risk? Only you can answer that. That is the answer I give wuffo friends. If asked for stats I give them straight numbers like 1 in 100 000, I don't compare to driving and such.

I like to use the same math on Swedish numbers: Number of cars: 6 Million Number annually killed in car accidents: 600 Miles driven annually average: 10 000 (rough estimate on my part). Number of jumps annually: 100 000 Numbers killed: 1 (The statistics on jumps is over a 3 year average) Using the numbers above there is 1 death for 100 million driven miles. That's 1 in 10 000 to die when driving 10 000 miles a year. And that would show you can do 10 skydives in Sweden before skydivning and driving 10000 miles a year are equally dangerous. All of this using the same arguments quoted by Nutz. So what does that mean? Since the statistics on fatalities in skydiving are roughly the same (1 in 100 000). Clearly it must mean that we Swedes are wonderful drivers!? Since we can only do half as many jumps as you can before it's more dangerous than driving Seriously I'd say the difference is density!! At any given moment there are MANY more cars in movement within a given surface area in the US, than in Sweden. But when it comes to skydiving, we use the same aircraft which means that at any given moment in any given volume (say a dropzone) there are the same amount of skydivers in the air. Hence the similarities in 1 fatality in 100 000 jumps. I'm willing to bet that if you do 100 000 jumps all at once in one place, you will have more than 1 fatality. There are plenty of holes in my argument above I know. But I think density is a more important factor than volume alone! My point? Probably the same one Nutz was trying to make! Using statistics you can make a bullet in the head look like the safest thing you can do! Hey, I made all you guys look like lousy drivers which is exactly what I wanted to do!

I put mine on the legstrap. Still in the pouch that came with the rigg. I replaced that piece of s...t plastic with a metal knife but still use the original pouch. It fits nicely above the metal buckle of the legstrap. It didn't slide around, but I had it stiched there by a rigger just in case to keep it from sliding down between my legs. I can reach it with both hands. In fact is there really a place on your torso that you can't reach with both hands?

I started this post as part of a reply in safety and training but decided to put it here instead! I write this to see if I'm missing an aspect regarding the discussion about low turn incidents in the "Incidents forum". I'm not writing this to discuss whether or not to hook turn or how to hook turn safely, My theory is that it usually boils down to the same 4 errors. 1.Misjudging the altitude. AND / OR 2. Misjudging the rate of decent of your canopy which is really part of problem number one. AND / OR 3. You fail to take into account the external factors like wind, obstacles, traffic and so on. AND / OR 4. Not having your priorities straight. By this time I think it has been well established that anyone regardless of weight, canopy type, level of experience, weather and so on, have, can and will continue to hurt or kill themselves in low turn accidents. So I wouldn't consider these essential factors. Even if it is easier to do it under a loaded elliptical, that comes back to point 1 and 2 above. If the cause is number 4. I would say YES there are things to be learned. For example turning too low to avoid a down wind landing. Those priorities must be discussed and set straight. But how about the first 3? The keyword is judgment! In all of 1-3 the skydiver exercised poor judgment! Can we translate someone else's judgment of a given situation into our own mind and act on that information in another situation? Are we just playing along to dwell on others misfurtune like some sort of "Cyberspace rubber necking"? Are we just afraid that even the best and most experienced of us can just mess up, and there by it can also happen to us? Are we desperatly seeking reasons other than poor judgment to create some sort of perception that "It wont happen to me"? Or is there a real value in these threads that I'm missing?

I for one is all for discussing incidents and accidents. Often facts are short, and there is a lot of speculation. This is not all bad in my book. Something can be learned from speculation. Even if what someone is speculating to be the cause, turns out to be wrong, it might still have raised some important unadressed issue. So I wont go as far as to say speculation is all bad. But the kind of things I have seen recently like "epelepsy" or other things that relates to the injured / killed skydivers mental or physical condition is BAD! Nothing is to be learned from that, and it only showes lack of respect! Let a proper investigation resolve those issues! Even though my general opinion is that speculation is well in place in this forum, sometimes it tends to get out of hand, and it drowns the facts and clouds the issue. I feel that often speculation goes to far. But I guess that is something we all have to live with unless we ban everything but facts. And would you like the job to determine what is what? I started writing a lot regarding low turn incidents, but I desided to post a separte thread on this, so I wont turn this thread of it's intended course.

I put 200 jumps on mine and wasn't slammed once, about 150 of those were camera jumps, so I would remember. I loaded it at 1.4. I NEVER rolled the nose at all! I just let it hang, and then I pulled the slider out in front of the nose! I had wonderfull consistent openings, allways on heading! I experimented with rolling the nose both as you describe and also just to roll the entire nose in one roll. But that only caused off heading oppenings and didn't do much to slow it down

In some cases I would have to disagree! I wonder were these lines came from: "Live as you learn" "Setting a good example" "Do as I tell you, not as I do" Bottom line. Instruction will only get you so far, there will always be students that try to do as you DO, and not as you tell them to do. I would much rather have that student under a big bulky square than under an eliptical when he figures out why we told him this and that. What's the rush? I for one felt that skydiving had plenty of kicks to offer right of student status without feeling "I have to get a ZP, HP eliptical right now, or else I wont be having fun". Sure I looked at the "sky gods" of that time and went "I wish I could do that", but that was also part of the kick. Having a goal to strive for. Time is an aspect in it self! During the time I was jumping my big bulky cannopy. I got to see some failed hp landings first hand, and had to help in taking care of the results. It is completely different watching a video of some one hooking in, and seeing it first hand. It's just to easy to see all the cool mile long turf surfs, and never see the possible consequeses. Time in this activity is an important learning tool just as getting higher jump numbers. Not only to experience the horror of accidents, but to take the opportunity to watch, ask and learn from others.