Nicholas Broughton

That’s very well possible G. Speaking to the Ingrams as extensively as we have, I think we both understand the importance of their description of the money and how the rubber bands were stuck to the fibers those bills. The rubber bands need to be in a high temp environment to enter that gooey melt phase so they can get stuck on the money how the Ingrams described. Just like the money itself the rubber bands also tell a story. A window into the money’s history as you so eloquently put it. I can tell you that a group of us have put Cooper bands that TK sent us around pieces of plywood and put them outside in the PNW throughout the summer in different scenarios and not once did they enter that gooey melt phase. These are all the days the temp got above 100 in Portland 1972-1979.

Well stated G. I’m with ya 100%.

Tom’s 2023 analysis of the money shows that the rubber bands were on the ends and the center opened up and let the diatoms in and the very edges could also open up and let the diatoms in. If that bundle is rolling on a sandy river bottom there is no way silt (smaller then diatoms) and other debris aren’t getting lodged in the middle opening and outside crevices. The middle opening and outside edge crevices quickly close up when it gets out of the water. There not open for sand debris to enter in it’s water logged condition while in situ on the sand bar. I think your smart enough to get the no silt thing. You just choose to believe it doesn’t mean anything because it clashes with your theory . Cooperites no longer subscribe to the natural arrival via spring flood because of this finding. Tom Kaye - “So being this clean kinda says this money was never exposed to the water in the way you’d think.” Whether you choose to accept it or not it puts further constraints on how the money got to tbar.

I’m just going as far the evidence supports, which is that the money bundle fanned out in CR river water before it ended up where Brian found it. Not only are you going beyond what the evidence supports but you are doing so knowing contradictory evidence exists. Tom is on record of saying that the money was exposed to clean Columbia river water. Rolling along the river bottom doesn’t make for clean water environment. That 4 layer fragment came from inside the stack. We know the money was already wet when it arrived. Brian pulled the money out in three separate packets that he describes as soggy clumps that he initially thought was drift wood. When the Ingrams put them in the plastic hot dog bun bag…. the three packets stuck to each other due to the moisture, forming one solid clump. It took a solid effort by the Ingrams to peel the bills apart from what Brian has told me. So any crap that got deposited in between the bills while the bundle was fanned out in water, would of remained trapped when the bundle comes out and closes up like a clamshell. The money tells a story and you can either chose to listen to what it’s saying or be a flyjack and come up with your own version of events, thinking you know better. “and, nobody has shown the mechanism to produce the erosion pattern on the packets in situ... nobody” And you haven’t shown that the abrasion pattern on the bills is consistent with tumbling/rolling on a sandy river bottom. “the uniform abrasion pattern on the packets is consistent with a tumbling/rolling action.” I have no dog in the tena bar mystery. If Tom had found it filthy in between the layers of that bill fragment then I’d find your theory super plausible and even most likely. Tena Bar is a a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma and I think that was the intention.

“I posted what the facts suggest,, others are making up nonsense that is not supported by anything but their imaginations..” Again you are the one doing what you accuse everyone else of. What are your “facts” for the money tumbling along the Columbia River bottom exactly…. the rounded corners are a fact but offers no evidence for how they got like that, it could of very well have been just degradation in situ as evidence by the holes in the bills which would not happen from rolling in the river (TK’s current stance). So what else ya got? Palmer’s theory? Not a fact. Here is an inconvenient actual fact though for your theory. In 2023 Brian gave Tom bill fragments to analyze. One of the fragments was made up of 4 layers of bills. Tom presented his findings from his forensic analysis at CC23 and of note, he found it to be remarkably clean in between the layers of the fragment…. no soot, silt, mud ect. How in the hell is that consistent with tumbling along a sandy river bottom? How does that action happen, with out shit from the river bottom getting deposited between the bills in the bundle? We know the bundle had to have fanned out in the water to have picked up the diatoms. Silt is smaller then diatoms. In August 1972 three boys find 10 and 20 dollar bills in bottom of Willamette River by the riverbank in Cottage Grove, OR. No match to a nationwide check of the serial numbers. A year later, since no one had filed a successful claim, the boys split the $2,360. This article talks about all the mud and silt on the bills when they were found. Now I know you’ll probably cite the fact that the Ingram’s washed some of the money to keep your theory breathing but I asked Brian myself specifically about the 4 layer fragment and he said it was virgin and not part of what they washed. It makes sense because there is no salvaging that for spending and it had no serials on it. Even if it did get washed, a rinse in the sink isn’t leaving it as spotless as Tom found it to be. That would require a surgical effort with certain tooling. According to Tom the layers were pretty well stuck together, it took some serious work from him to separate them, so he could look inside.

My view is if it’s not in files then it PROBABLY (more likely then not) didn’t happen. I’d think (I know assuming, shoot me) any discussion between Cooper and the crew regarding the range is significant enough that it be in the files. We know not everything made it into the files but even knowing that….it be a major outlier for this not be. We’re both technically assuming here. It’s just a matter of which assumption is the better one aka more likely to be true based on known information and logic. I think everyone in here but you applies this metric. Again. I’m just defaulting to what we know to have transpired in the documentation we have. To suggest something could of happened that really needs to have happened to validate your theory is a reach and a desperate attempt at defending your position imo. My inference is based on examples in the files of how Cooper reacted in other instances when he felt the crew were either wrong about something or something they told him didn’t pass his smell test. I gave three examples: plane taking off with aft stairs down, parachute delay, and refueling delay. Whether he relented or not is irrelevant, the take away is he spoke up in all three of these instances. Something you seem to want to ignore for your theory. Round peg meet square hole. You are suggesting he either did something completely different from his established MO (said nothing when he knew the crew were wrong) or he followed his MO but the exchange is just not in the files for whatever reason (outlier). Either one of those scenarios has a very low likelihood attached to it for obvious reasons. Anyone can think outside the box and come up with a theory to address an incongruent data point in this case that can only be dismissed with assumptions and feelings or what I like to call logic. Does that make it any good though? I’ll argue NO and give an example. When Eric found that bedsheet on Tina bar. I showed him a picture of Lyle Cameron with a homemade wing suit made from a bedsheet in the 1960’s as a joke. That inspired a theory for him though and he thought it could be related and that’s how he landed near Tina bar. He is trying address an incongruent data point (money find) in this case by thinking outside the box, same as you are with this theory. He dropped the theory when Tom tested the bedsheet for Diatoms and found nothing which meant it couldn’t of been there since 71. But the theory remains relevant for my example. You can’t disprove this theory with evidence. Some early “birdmen” like Clem Sohn and Leo Valentin claimed to have glided for miles on the wing suits they invented. Cooper could have conceivably made a homemade wing suit that worked. He was able to craft a true to form bomb. So who’s to say he couldn’t of made one. Just as you say we don’t know what transpired between Cooper and the crew regarding range well we don’t know the contents of his mystery bag either. It could of been wing suit components for all we know. So you can’t disprove it with with facts and evidence. Only on assumptions and feelings. Does this make it a good theory? Hell no! That’s a bad barometer. I’m all for outside the box thinking. If there is any case that needs it, it’s certainly this one. So we encourage you to go back to outside the boxlandia but return to us with something else because this one ain’t it Fly.

To relent typically implies some level of resistance or prior opposition. Cooper needed to offer resistance or opposition to the range limitation claim by the crew for it to support your theory and for the other examples your citing to be valid. No evidence for that. Cooper stating that the 727 could take off with the stairs down is in both of Tina statements. To us mere mortals that qualifies as evidence. But I guess in super sleuth Fly’s mind we are missing something here? Somebody made a mistake…. "Cooper would have spoken up" that isn't evidence, you don't know what he was thinking.” Not claiming it is nor do I have the ability to get in his head. I’d classify it as a logical inference. You’re a goofy fella Fly…. criticizes people for guesswork when your entire premise is a total shot in the dark made-up guess.

BINGO

Let’s look at more apples to apples comparisons. I’ll give two examples. One where he probably thought the pilots/crew were just wrong and one where he probably was thinking LE funny stuff. When the pilots actually told him something about the aircraft he knew wasn’t true…. that it could not take off with the stairs down. He pushed back on that and had a back and forth with the crew over it…. even made it a point to state that plane could take off with the stairs down before compromising. He seemed to relish the opportunity to show off his knowledge. Same thing happened when he asked what the hold up was on the ground and was told in error that they were just waiting on the chutes to be delivered from McCord. He stated that McCord was either only 20 miles or minutes (unclear which) and it shouldn’t be taking that long or whatever. Why would it be any different if he thought the crew was wrong or the feds were trying to pull a fast one on him when it came to the range limitations? Especially since a range error by the crew or funny stuff by the feds in this instance would be more central to his original plan (if it was Mexico) then the other two circumstances I just mentioned. He also was having none of it when it came to the fueling delays which is another instance he probably perceived as funny stuff. He KNEW it shouldn’t be taking that long and that had him more unhinged then any other time throughout the skyjacking. I completely agree with you that Cooper would of spoken up about it. He didn’t go through all that trouble to make at the very least a true to life bomb down to the correct wiring to have him in the drivers seat just to give up the wheel when he didn’t need to. It makes no sense. I think we can all see that’s where this theory falls totally flat on its face.

Bang on. It’s cherry picking at its finest. Let’s just toss out the height estimate given by the witness who had the longest observation time of him standing, in like you said a known setting to him and not knowing he was a skyjacker, that got within inches of him when he handed him his ticket. Why? Because he thought he probably wouldn’t recognize him again by face…. has nothing to do with his height. Pretty delusional reasoning for discounting Hal’s height estimate IMO. I think Hal being honest about that makes him an even more credible witness.

Spot on…. I completely agree.

Thanks G! You have forgotten more about this case then most will ever learn. I feel like people point to this when dismissing the grudge as just part of the conversation and mistakenly attribute Tina to bringing the word up when it was in fact Cooper. Whoever this guy was he had an ax to grind. Maybe nothing specific as his comment suggests but just in general. The system? Society? The current state of affairs in America? Did he want money sure but I think he was striving for something more. There are less bold ways to acquire 200k criminally. He is on the low end dollar wise as far as parajacking ransom requests go. Cooper imo was a peculiar and complex individual. A man with strong opinions and convictions. Like lxchilton said it’s too general to narrow down the suspect pool but I think it should be baked into the psychological profile of Cooper.

Thanks. Well this seems to conflict with Fly’s declaration that Cooper would not have known where he was. Since we don’t know who he was…. he could of been a Boy Scout!

Cliff is actually very well versed on NORJAK. He took part in the Washington State Historical Museum Cooper exhibit and multiple Cooper Cons. I have had the pleasure of speaking with him at both the CC’s he attended. He has discussed the case with Cooperites and industry insiders alike. Even people involved with SAGE asking what radars would of been involved in tracking 305. He has an intellectual curiosity about the case, make no mistake. Another excerpt from his CooperCon 21 panel discussion. Cliff: “I talked to a lady who I work with at the museum of flight who was a northwest orient stewardess and she wasn’t on this flight, didn’t really know the pilot but in her talking to other stewardesses about this, she said the pilot made that kind of maneuver because he didn’t want the airplane blowing up over the city and so that’s why he avoided the airport and avoided the downtown (Portland metro) area as that black line shows (pointing at the FBI/Air Force map on stage behind him).” This sounds like a much more logical option if you wanted to avoid major cities then flying a route you’ve probably never flown before, that’s a 129 statue miles longer, requires more reserve fuel (already flying dirty), loosing a degree of freedom incase of an emergency in a very sketchy and foreign flight config.

Maybe R99 can weigh in here but couldn’t a basic compass tell him if they were taking V23 or not? If he knew that there was only one other option then it shouldn’t be hard to figure. V27 is the left red line at 230 degrees, and the right line is V23 at 178 degrees. When you take off southbound from seatac you're heading is 160 degrees. So 178 is a very slight turn, 230 is sharper.

In the midst of a family emergency no less….

Who are we to argue with the air traffic controller who was on duty that night and handled 305? Other expert opinions hold immense weight when they validate Fly’s confirmation bias, IE Leonard Palmer or the FBI. But when they don’t he just straight up ignores them!

Kaminsky gets it. This was a first of its kind emergency situation here. Of course they are going to do their due diligence by weighing the options to determine the best route to take under the circumstances. Both altitude Victor airway options would be discussed, that’s a given. That doesn’t make V27 any more viable. Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100.

I was talking to somebody that lives directly under V27. He said that hardly any air traffic ever uses it. It’s a safe bet that given Northwest's routes, none of the flight crew had ever even used V27 but knew V23 very well, so I'd take V23 as the pilot all day if I have something crazy going on in the back. This is a picture of all southbound SEA traffic. It heads down V23 or further east to Klamath Falls. The person I spoke with lives in the blue dot on the left under V27. We have no way of knowing if Cooper knew this or not…. but if he did his homework then he’d understand that them taking V23 was pretty much a forgone conclusion.

You don’t have anything until it’s produced. This applies to anything in the vortex. If you’re that bothered by the stance Ryan continues to express on his lives about the height, then bring the goods NOW and potentially sway his opinion on the matter or don’t. That’s certainly your prerogative. But maybe just put a pin in this until the receipts are on record? Because as it stands now… you two are clearly at loggerheads on the issue and any further debate at this point is just beating a dead horse.

Yeah, they technically could have chosen either, but ALL things considered, there are clear reasons why they chose V-23. It doesn’t come down to a 50/50 coin flip call after flight ops takes everything into account imo. Now would Cooper have known that and about Victor airways…. he may have just thought jets flew around however they wanted so who knows? But if he knew that IFR clearance could be picked up in the air and wasn’t just saying that to hurry things along, then I’d guess he probably did. It comes down to who you see Cooper as and how much credit you want to give the guy at the end of the day. How much luck was dumb vs manufactured by Cooper? He’s either being very strategic if he believes V23 is a sure bet or completely winging it by not requesting V23. I say that because requesting V23 might show his hand a bit and reduce the search area from all the way to Reno, if LE read into that request. I tend to want to believe that the reason he was successful and we are still here almost 54 years later is because he stacked the deck the best he knew how. That entails carrying out a thorough enough plan from start to finish, while leaving as little to chance as he could without compromising his big picture.

Victor 165/27 looks the best with regard to altitude, but there are two problems with it. First, it is 129 statute miles longer (I think over-water flight requires 1 hour reserve fuel rather than the standard 30 min). Also, you lose a “degree of freedom” by flying on the coast. In other words, in an emergency you can only go east to find an emergency landing site (on land) and surely a nut-case with a bomb and flying dirty with the stairs down might precipitate an emergency. That leaves Victor 23 as the only “real choice”. Cliff Ammerman said as much and that’s good enough for me. “Yes certainly, If you’re going to fly south at ten thousand feet, Victor 23 would be the, the option that I think almost anybody would take.”

From the flight path panel discussion at CooperCon 2021 with Cliff Ammerman. I went back and listened to my recording which is up on the Facebook group. Here are the relevant excerpts. Darren: “What do you think about that Cliff, do you think it’s possible that he actually did dictate the flight path based on the conditions he demanded the plane fly.” Cliff: “Yes certainly, If you’re going to fly south at ten thousand feet, Victor 23 would be the, the option that I think almost anybody would take. Just because you could fly at much lower altitude.” Darren: “Do you think he knew the plane would fly Victor 23?” Marty Andrade: “Based on that answer, I would have to say yes.” Marty Andrade: “I’m going to direct this to Cliff. Below 10,000 feet how many airways could they have picked, Victory 23 but there should be another one right?” Cliff: “There is another airway to the west called Victor 165 that still would be fairly low. Ugh, this was before the time that they had designed an airway for Portland basically direct to kalamath falls. Now there were high altitude airways but you had to be above 18k feet and obviously DB Cooper didn’t want to do that. So if they would of come back a few years later then this, he probably would of turned at Portland and gone directly to kalamath falls because it’s a more direct route to Reno. But then the min on the route out there is much higher. So my guess would of been then, that if DB Cooper wanted it low, he would of told them to stay on Victor 23 until they can hit further south and that’s just speculation.” Darren: “Well now that you have that information Marty what’s your answer?” Marty: “No I would say that given that, we know from the radio transcript that they were put on Victor 23, um if there really isn’t another option for them at the time then that’s the route they would of been on.” No mention of V27 from Cliff.

Fair enough and I’ll admit that I misspoke when I said nobody in the military ever used the term. I got a bit carried away. Hyperbole on my part. The crux of my argument is against it being common military terminology and or jargon, not that it’s never been used. But I think we’ve beaten that horse to death already and we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. I also apologize for the canuck remark. Got caught up in the passion of the debate. Not my best form.