Airman1270

...So anyone think about a DZ that allows fun jumpers, but requires AAD's?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've had this thought. However, as a proponent of the "The Boss Has the Right to Run His Business As He Sees Fit" school of American freedom, I think the better way to address the mandatory-AAD nazies is to point out the hypocrisy of requiring these devices while allowing their customers to jump mains that are smaller than 150 sq.ft. Regarding the issue at hand, it seems to me plain foolishness to create an environment where new customers, who presumeably show an interest in skydiving, would NOT enjoy the opportunity of learning in an atmosphere of normal DZ activity. Even if they only make 3-4 jumps they will usually stay around long enough to build a rappor with somebody, as well as absorb a fuller understanding of the sport. This will either feed their initial desire, or give them enough information to make an educated decision as to whether they'll stay with it. Either way, they will have had a great time and will carry those memories for life. When the subject comes up, they will share with other people, some of whom might then be motivated to make that first call to the DZ for more info. Etc, Etc.... Of course, the above scenario ASSumes the DZO's in question are concerned about retention & growth issues. If so, it would be useful if they might explain their reasons for operating the way they do. Cheers, Jon S.

Quote***Skydiving does not need to be your life. __________________________________________________ ...especially when you have a family. I had 10 years of marriage and 2 children when I started in this sport. Every two weeks is all I can handle, not just because of time but because of money too. My gear is also not the prettiest and newest, but it darn sure works... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ You're singing my song! Thankfully, since I finally learned to fly, I can go weeks or months between jumps and still perform fairly well upon my return. It was not as easy in the old days, though. In 1991, with nine years in the sport, I made my 200th jump two weeks before getting married and moving to Georgia. Safety was never compromised; However, such a schedule made it difficult to advance or get to know other jumpers. Regarding the topic here: The first step toward improving the sport would be repealing ALL new regulations introduced in the last 20 years. A few years ago I watched a guy accumulate more than 100 jumps within two years. He then took nearly a year off. When he returned, the DZO made him do a static line jump. This was profoundly offensive and insulting, but she felt handcuffed by USPA "recommendations." This guy made a few more jumps then disappeared for good. The end result of these new rules, currency requirements, etc, is that we are, intentionally or not, persuading people to believe the sport is much riskier than it actually is. As a student, jumping a sporadic schedule, I was able to make a few jumps, then come back more than a month or two later and pick up where I'd left off. The main reason I could do this, with plenty of confidence and no compromise of safety, is because I was not confronted by a DZ culture than insisted I was a "high risk" jumper. Once someone has completed the student course and has graduated, he is capable of jumping safely even if he only makes a few jumps per year. Perhaps we need to draw a dinstinction between "jumping safely" and "dramatically improving one's freefall/canopy skills." At 200 jumps I could not fly very well, but I could handle the basic workload of altitude awareness, parachute operation, and landing in a safe place (which usually was very close to the target.) In fact, I bought my Wonderhog/Strato Cloud in March 1990 out of the classified ads in PARACHUTIST. (It was an upgrade, replacing my first used rig, and older version of the same gear.) I had about 150+ jumps, had not jumped in six months, and had only made about nine jumps the previous year. My freefall skills were barely worth mentioning. However, on that first visit back I made four jumps, nailing the peas every time. If I had been surrounded by a bunch of hand-wringing "currency" nazis, fretting about my belly band and worried that I might not react in the event of an emergency, they might not have allowed me to jump at all, at least not without expensive, redundant retraining. As it was, an instructor took me aside for a quick briefing, a discussion of wind direction and a gear check, and I was riding the Cessna. Scared? Of course. Jumping out of airplanes is always scary. But I had complete confidence in my ability to successfully succeed. (Songebob.) Cheers, Jon S.

Given the fact that skydiving is inordinately represented by white folks, I've wondered if the professional race agitators such as J. Jackson might ever try to stir up some trouble. I believe they tried to use this tactic to intimidate the NASCAR enthusiasts, but last I heard nobody seemed willing to take such threats seriously. Good for them. (Toyota, watch & learn...) We're probably too small a percentage of the population to attract their attention, but you never know. Personally, I have no use for this crap. The easiest way to be called a bigot in America is to treat black people just like everyone else. I don't play that game. In fact, I attracted a bit of accusatory attention last January by posting a tongue-in-cheek thread regarding MLK day. Several people wondered if I harbored any unkind racial attitudes, and seemed determined not to accept any explanation that would lead them to conclude that I don't. Life gets interesting when you refuse to tap dance on eggshells for anyone. Cheers, Jon S.

What they said... Make the jumps & use your head. I haven't used an AAD since 1984 when I was about two-thirds of the way through my student training. I had about 40-ish jumps and made a long solo delay, my first without the AAD and my first while wearing sneakers. (At the time, students wore jump boots.) I understand your concern, as I remember diving off the Cessna step knowing that I HAD to pull something. It was a real confidence builder. Nothing wrong with having an AAD, but it saddens me to hear people say they won't jump without one. Cheers, Jon S.

...There is a difference between just going out and laying base for someone and turning points around them and actually coaching them and teaching the techniques needed to be great skydivers... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ First, an apology. I don't mean to keep this thread on life support, but I haven't had internet access for several days... I was intrigued by this comment, but failed to address it last time. Why do you assume that my ability to teach a new jumper is limited to just laying base and turning points? Since my early days, when I was a novice jumping with new graduates, I WAS coaching/teaching, much the same way others had done for me, and the way they were taught by those before them, etc. The exchange of helpful information from one jumper to another has been a staple of the learning process since the days of rounds, jump boots, and baton passes. This does not require a formal, uniform training structure. By the way, I agree with another comment made about "instructors" who might have the knowledge and the ratings, but who cannot effectively communicate with others. Cheers, Jon

Nice to see you're going static line. I thought it was becoming a lost art. It's an excellent training program and a confidence builder right from the start. Have fun and let us know how it went. And, of course, listen to your instructor. There'll be plenty of time later for the rest of us to confuse you with all sorts of good advice. Cheers, Jon S.

...No, something else is causing them to quit and they are using this as an excuse. I believe they are quiting because of the dumb canopy collisions happening with greater regularity. I believe they are quiting because of the stupid jump plane crashes every year. I believe that they see people who are supposed to be in charge turn a blind eye to a problem jumper who then becomes a crater or causes someones else to be a crater. I believe that people get tired of seeing jumpers disregard people's safety when they cut their legs off hitting a bridge on a stunt in front of little kids. Etc.... You get my point. They don't know where the next yahoo is coming from and they don't want to be the next target.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hmmm.... Interesting points, but I have to wonder if ANYBODY who was otherwise enjoying the sport regularly read about an accident and said "That's it, I'm done!" While over the years I've seen a handful of questionable acts, I've rarely seen anything that would constitute a blatant disregard for safety. (At least, that is, until small high performance canopies became a regular part of DZ life.) And even so, I've almost never actually witnessed anyone flying one of these in a careless manner. Your point about canopy collisions is a good one. Most of the accidents we read about, such as the bridge collision or the small spinning experimental main, are situations in which most of us would never find ourselves, and thus don't have to worry about becoming involved. But getting struck by someone else while "routinely" landing is something that could happen to anybody, regardless of experience or attention to detail. It seems our choice is to accept a sport which, because of its human imperfections, can be described as "very dangerous" or we must endure another orgy of legislation, regulation, and micro-management so it can then be described as "safe" and "mainstream." ...They paid 150-180 bucks to come out and do their first tandem then probably spent a lot to get certified and equipped. And 15 dollars more a day caused them to quit jumping all together? Sorry, I'm not buying it even if they are saying it. There is something more at work here. And it is the total lack of collective safety minded focus in this industry. We're still light years behind on canopy control education MANDATORY for anyone getting a new canopy off student status... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I thought basic canopy control was a part of the student training process, but have been surprised a few times over the years. Example: I was trained on rounds. Later, while learning to fly squares, I instictively learned to do slow, flat turns. This was never discussed before; It just seemed like a good idea at the time. I was maneuvering for the peas, and knew I had to fly slowly (while still maintaining enough airspeed to avoid a stall.) Later in life I read of suggestions that students be taught the concept of flat turns. Why wasn't this being done already? Cheers, Jon S.

...50 jumps within the past 12 months... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ This is the sort of thing that would really hamper my style. It's been nearly a dozen years since I made 50 jumps in a 12-month period. Last year was really slow, with about 15 jumps following a four-month layoff. After another two months off, I made five jumps in a single weekend. Five weeks later I did my first demo, landing about 20' from target center. Six weeks and a few jumps later I made two more, including last week's demo. No matter how many/few jumps I've ever made in a given time frame, I've always had good accuracy skills. Thanks be to God and those T-10 student jumps. I believe we'd see less demand for "canopy piloting" instruction if we trained students on rounds. I will begin holding my breath right about............................NOW. Cheers, Jon

...Stop bitching about the rating and get it and go out there and teach some low timers... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've been doing this for years. Since these new rules were enacted, I'm now officially considered "unqualified" to do what I had been doing all along. ...Why not get rid of all the licenses and ratings and let eveyone do what they want to do?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hmmm... Good idea. Seriously, there may be a valid purpose to the license/ratings thing, but at times it seems these trinkets are assigned more priority than they deserve.

Great. And people wonder why the Pro Rating was created. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hee hee... Did I mention the perfect landing, right on target? C'mon, I knew there'd be a crowd but I didn't know how big it would be. How would holding a PRO have helped? By the way, I don't oppose the concept of the PRO. Tell me how many good landings I must make, and how close to the target I must land. If I can do it, I get the rating, right? Cheers, Jon

Because you only have an A license. You have enough for a D but did you do everything that is requried for a D?... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I met all of the freefall requirements many years ago. All that's left is the take the test, and perhaps jump into a pool with a canopy over my head and survive. (Is that still required?) ...If you only have an A license and 800 jumps - they could be all solo's... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Well, I DO have a lot of solos. I'm not AFF material, but I can jump safely in large groups. I may not belong on the dive because I can't guarantee I'll be in my slot at the right time, but if I am on the load I won't hurt you. One reason I don't fly well enough to make Jack Jeffries' Rolodex is because when I was an intermediate jumper I spent a lot of time doing solos or small-ways with newbies because the best people on the DZ only jumped with each other. It was rare that I was the least experienced guy on the load (without being made to feel I was wasting everyone's time.) My learning curve was slow, in part because I couldn't jump often, and in part because when I could jump I could not take advantage of much of the talent walking around the DZ. ...The S&TA used to and I believe still can waive it if you really are qualified to jump with an unlicensed jumper... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Fine, if he's around. But why can't the DZO make that call on his own? By the way, I'm not talking about visiting an out-of-state DZ where they don't know me and trying to get on a load with several recent AFF grads who barely have 10 jumps each. I'm referring to activities at the home DZ where the DZO knows what to expect of me. Why don't you have a D license? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've never been in a situation where I needed one. If I ever really need a "D" I'll buy one. There is also an element of protest. The requirements are artificial, designed to make things look good on paper rather than provide any enhancement of safety issues. There is no practical reason to require a "D" for such things as an instructor rating, PRO rating, etc. I believe that if I can learn what I need to know to teach and/or JM students, I should qualify for the rating. If I can meet the accuracy standards necessary for a PRO rating, I should get the rating. If my flying skills are good enough to compete at the Nationals, I should be able to compete. The "D" license is irrelevant. These requirements appear to be little more than an effort to bully people into buying the "D". Last week I made my second demo, into a reasonably tight area roped off on the shore of a pond, in front of 36,000 people. I nailed the "X", and had been invited on the dive because the organizer was aware of my accuracy skills. If I had a "D" and a PRO, would I have landed any closer? Cheers, Jon

...Why are you so resistant to a "D" licence? Why resistant to a coach rating? If you say money, you're argument is all washed up? Afraid you might learn something? _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Money is a minor issue. The fee I'll pay to buy that "D" (for which I qualified years ago) would buy another jump. Due to family priorities, I average fewer than 30-40 jumps per year. It matters. Likewise for a "coach" rating. It will require the exchange of money, above and beyond the cost of jump tickets, reserve repacks, and other expenses associated with DZ trips. After I spend this money for these trinkets, I will be no more qualified to take a recent AFF graduate up for a two-way than I am now. I can do it safely. However, because of recently-enacted rules, I can't do it without running afoul of USPA "recommendations." If the sport has improved demonstrably since these rules were implemented, I'd like to see the evidence. Meanwhile, we're talking about new jumpers wanting to fit in and be accepted, and at the same time we're imposing obstacles on experienced jumpers who wish to jump with these people. By the way, does this "coach" rating need to be renewed every year? Is there a fee for this? If so, it would be interesting to find out how many "coaches" allow their status to wither away after the initial rush of qualifying for the rating. If their services are in demand, does this mean that there are plenty of new jumpers who are paying extra for someone to jump with them, even though I'll do it for free? Cheers, Jon

QuoteThe USPA changed the requirements for people who can jump with students cleared for self supervision... You no longer need a coach rating - just a D and you can do a 4way with up to two students... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Here we go again... Why require a "D" license? I have more than 800 jumps and am perfectly capable of jumping safely with anyone, especially a brand new graduate. If someone, especially a DZ regular whose skills are known to the DZO, has proven himself and wants to jump with the new guy, why impose artificial requirements which have NOTHING to do with the actual safety of everyone involved? Cheers, Jon S.

While playing softball in high school I broke my left ankle during an outfield collision. Several years later I broke my right ankle on my first jump. (Static-line T-10, brain fart on the PLF.) The same doctor treated me both times. When he said I shouldn't be jumping out of airplanes, I asked "Why didn't you tell me to give up baseball?" Cheers, Jon S.

Made my second demo Sunday evening at a large church in Griffin, GA. Police estimated the crowd at about 36,000. The landing area was roped off on the shore of a large pond. During an earlier visit, we noted that there were many outs, but I failed to understand that most of these "outs" would be crowded with people. Under canopy, the target looked much smaller than it did while we were on site earlier in the day. Made one spiral too many, trying to get further below the organizer as he brought in the flag. Turned toward the target, sure I'd get close but afraid I'd have to land at the water's edge and get a bit wet. However, I nailed the "X". This demo stuff is fun! A few hours earlier I jumped my W'hog/Strato Cloud at Thomaston. Still trying to figure out how to flare it. Did better than last time, but no stand-up. This thing flies like a real fast round. Love the look on the other jumpers' faces. Cheers, Jon S.

...I guess you believe in the facism of your guys... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Just a thought: I've never heard a political argument worthy of being taken seriously that relied on the use of the word "fascist" to describe people who disagree. If we're going to go down this road, can somebody please define the word? ...REAGAN.. BUSH.....BUSH.... that adds up to 18 years.. as opposed to 12 years of Carter and CLinton.. YOU are the ones who have been in the whitehouse MOST of the last 30 years..... yet you blame Hillary... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I did not "blame" Hillary. I pointed out the fact that whenever people like her get the kind of legislation they want, the end result is that we all lose more money and more freedom. This was a response to your claim that conservatives are trying to take away your freedom, while liberals are trying desperately to defend your precious American liberties. You have it completely backwards. Furthermore, during the years you describe, Congress was dominated by Democrats and other liberals. Even after 12 years of a Republican majority, we still do not have a conservative majority. Thus, there is still a strong mind set in favor of passing more laws, any laws, in an effort to convince voters they "care" about (insert issue du jour here.) These laws always result in further restrictions on freedom. Again, I can think of few laws pushed by "right wingers" which have resulted in me being prohibited from doing things I was previously free to do. Meanwhile, there are numerous examples of such laws being pushed by the left. It is a mistake to focus too closely on the Presidency, as most of these laws are created by Congress, state, and local authorities. The president can set a tone, but in reality has little overall influence in such matters. ...DUDE.. hallucinations from drugs are nasty things... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I take you at your word. Cheers, Jon S.

...Until we stop treating the new people like they have some kind of disease and stop forcing them to pay someone to jump with them we are going to continue to loose them.The current system is not working.The new people are not able to jump with the general population,they are not making friends... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I've always enjoyed jumping with recent graduates and other low-timers. (For one thing, they don't mind it when I screw up...) However, in recent years there have been several times when I offered to make a dive with a novice, only to learn they were not allowed to jump with me because they didn't yet have a license and I don't hold a "coach" rating. Whose idea was this stupid "coach" thing, anyway? Is there any evidence that the sport is better off since it was implemented? When possible, I like to greet the first-timers after they land and share the experience with them. I notice most people are just walking away, leaving them alone on the field with their instructor and maybe the people who came out to the DZ with them. It's also nice to greet the day's batch of students, welcoming them and asking what led to their decision to come out and try this. I ususally withhold my first-jump broken ankle story until after they land, though. They have enough on their minds. Cheers, Jon

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Check out the "Civil Liberties" thread for details. Short version: There is a long list of things we were free to do 30 years ago which are illegal today. Most of these laws have been pushed and/or supported by the left. A short list includes seat belt laws, bicycle helmet laws, HOV lanes, anti-smoking policies imposed on private businesses, campus speech codes, restrictions on campaign financing, and the criminalization of free speech on a public sidewalk if there happens to be an abortion clinic nearby. I can think of few restrictions imposed on my freedom by the Rush Limbaugh-Newt Gingrich-Ronald Reagan-George Bush-Carl Rove-Jon from Kennesaw strain of American politics. Cheers, Jon

Nice Spin.. now lets try some counter-Spin.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Silly me. I failed to consider the National Enquirer. You don't hate Rush because he was addicted to painkillers. You hate him because you disagree with him politically, and are annoyed that he has been very effective in educating people as to the truth about liberalism and its overall effect on the country. The fact is that every time people like Hillary Clinton get what they want, we all lose more money and more freedom. (For details, check out the thread on "civil liberties" that was discussed in this forum late last year. I think it was around October.) Cheers, Jon

Excellent reporting in the current SKYDIVING, following that real good letter on the same subject in a recent issue written by that guy in Georgia. Remember that episode of Gilligan's Island where Gilligan is flapping some makeshift wings, hovering at treetop level? Skipper comes along; they have the following exchange: "Gilligan, you can't fly." "I can't?" "No." "Oh." He then falls to the ground. The sport is being suffocated by recently-enacted currency requirements, which send the message that you cannot jump safely unless you do it regularly. Meanwhile, after years of struggling to convince people that the sport is not as dangerous as they might have believed, the increasing influence of the "mandatory AAD" nazies has resulted in a greater percentage of skydivers who have been led to believe that jumping is far more dangerous than it really is. This is the message we're marketing. I've endured many obstacles to be a skydiver, but if the DZ's in my area ever start requiring AAD's, I will be forced to quit. Nice work, RH. Cheers, Jon S.

But in your case I wonder if you equate "gullible and uneducated" with "disagrees w/ my world view." _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Well said. I don't always agree with Rush, but I have learned plenty by listening to his show. I learn about more newsworthy information from his program than I do from traditional news sources. I am a much better informed voter now than I was back when my only exposure to "news" was controlled by such sources as CNN, CBS, the Atlanta newspaper, etc. As far as his alleged "hypocrisy" is concerned, he has never had much respect for people who did drugs because they wanted to get high. It seems to me that becoming addicted to painkillers in an effort to ease serious physical pain would be a whole different matter. Anyway, he 'fessed up and sought treatment, which apparently has been very effective. One would have to be a petty bigot to hold this against him. Likewise his three divorces. Before we trash his alleged "hypocrisy" on this matter, is there any evidence that he wanted his marriages to end? According to the limited info I've heard, the women left him. Cheers, Jon S.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hee hee... Anybody up for an impromptu accuracy competition? Jon

I thought I'd wait another week or two, but just received a call today about doing a demo on Sunday in Griffin, so I may come out Friday night or Saturday morning for a jump or two, just to "practice." Hope I can get this past Nancy... ("You just made four jumps last week! You don't need to jump again for at least a month!") Hope to see you guys. Cheers, Jon S.

...The peace of mind came from jumping the pack job. It helped build trust... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Well said. Last year I jumped my old Strato Cloud after it had been packed for nearly nine months. I jumped it again this past weekend, after it had been packed for more than three months. It's not unusual to jump my Triathalon after it had been packed for more than a few weeks. It's always worked just fine. Pull a little high (just to give it some extra time, of course) but be prepared for a long ride. Cheers, Jon S.