mikkey

Where is this claimed? We are talking about the climate and note that "sceptics" do not claim that CO2 has no influence, just that it has been completely overrated and probably not the main driver. Assume you did not care to actually read above... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This post is long. But if you are interested in the debate on climate change you might want to read it. Everytime sceptical people have raised the issue that the science in regard to GW is not "settled" and far too reliant on a few debatable evidences and computer models, they have been howled down. However, recently more and more emperical data has emerged that should raise major questions. - There is now little doubt that global temperatures have NOT increased (even slightly decreased) since 1998/2001 (there is some debate if it is since 98 but none that this is true since 2001). NO model used by the IPCC and others predicted this and CO2 has increased over the whole period. The warming we saw over the century until 1998 still makes the world no hotter today than it was 1000 years ago. See attached graph "temp" from the Hadley Centre of Britain’s Meteorological Office and one of the four bodies measuring world temperature. Only one of the four, in fact, claims temperatures are still rising. That’s NASA, whose program is run by Dr James Hansen, Al Gore’s global warming adviser and a controversial catastrophist whose team’s reworking of data has been heavily criticised for exaggerating any heating. We can also drop that old fiction that the world was never warmer. It’s a false claim made popular by a 2001 report of the IPCC, the United Nations’ climate group, which ran a graph, shaped like a hockey stick, claiming there was no warming for millennia until humans last century gassed up their world. In fact, that “hockey stick” is now discredited, and last year Dr Craig Loehle, of the US National Council for Air and Stream Improvement, argued that using tree rings to work out past temperatures was clearly unreliable. He instead produced a graph - attached as "temp2" - of past temperatures using all other accepted proxies. You see his results (which for statistical reasons stop at 1935): they show humans lived through a medieval period that was warmer than even today. This was a period that historical accounts confirm was so warm that Greenland farmers grew crops on land now under snow, and British ones grew grapes. - There is now data showing that ocean levels are not rising and actually had a slight decrease in recent times. The waters have crept up for at least 150 years, since the world started to thaw from the Little Ice Age, and well before any likely man-made warming. But the climate models predicted that a big rise in emissions from all those cars, power plants and factories since World War II would cause an equally big rise in the seas, swelling them as much as 59cm by 2100. This wasn’t scary enough for alarmists like Al Gore, though, who claimed whole cities could in fact be drowned under 6m of ocean. But the satellites that have checked sea levels since 1992 find the seas have instead fallen over the past two years. This could be a blip. But it isn’t what the models predicted. - There is data that the melting of ice at the poles has stopped and ice has lately actually increased. Look at attached graph "ice". The graph seems to confirm a cooling. Forget media scares about a melting North Pole; sea ice has grown so fast in the southern hemisphere there is now more ice in the world than is usual, says the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. - The latest data is pointing more and more towards the sun as a more important factor on our climate then accepted by the IPCC. The world may warm again, and soon, although scientists at Leibnitz Institute and Max Planck Institute last month predicted it won’t for at least another decade. If at all, say solar experts worried by a lack of sun spots. But even if none of the mentioned data disproves the theory that man is causing dangerous warming, they should at least make you pause. They should at least make you open to other theories of climate change, like that of Dr Henrik Svensmark, head of Denmark’s Centre for Sun-Climate Research, who thinks changes in cosmic rays, which affect clouds, may explain much of the recent warming. And now the cooling, too. If this post has not totally worn you out yet, you might want to read the transcript from the Australian ABC which interviewed a scientist who actually developed some of those models which predicted catastrophic man made global warming. He is now doubting these models..... *** 891 ABC Mornings programme with David Bevan and Matthew Abraham 9.21 am DAVID EVANS Former Consultant to the Greenhouse Office (now Office of Climate Change) (Proofed) ANNOUNCER: Read an interesting article in the Australian last week. These are the words that stuck out, “I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model – FULCAM – that measures Australia’s compliance with the Kyoto Protocol in the land use change and forestry sector.” And this fellah went on to say that when he started that job in 1999, it was a great job. Everybody was really excited, they were properly resourced and they thought they were saving the planet. Now he’s not so sure. Dr David Evans is a former consultant with the Greenhouse Office, the author of that article in the Australian and he joins us now. Good morning David Evans. EVANS: Good morning. ANNOUNCER: Can you explain to our listeners how you had this – well, was it a road to Damascus conversion? Or- what’s gone on, in your thinking, over the issue of greenhouse gases over the last few years. EVANS Well, when I started the job in ‘99, the evidence that greenhouse gases, and particularly carbon emissions, caused global warming was fairly good. At that stage, as exhibited in Al Gore’s movie, we knew that from the old ice core data, that in previous warmings over the last half a million years, temperature and carbon moved in lockstep. So we assumed that carbon was causing the temperature rises. Since 1998 or so, the science has changed a fair bit. Unfortunately the public and the decision makers are still caught back in the pre-1998 situation. First of all, the new ice core data that came through from about 1998 through to 2003 was a high resolution and the data points were only a couple of hundred years apart, instead of a couple of thousand years apart, and that new ice core data shows that the rise in temperature preceded the rise in carbon dioxide by, on average, about 800 years. So we know that the temperature rises cause the CO2 rises, not the other way round as previously assumed. Now, if you look carefully at Al Gore’s movie, you’ll find that’s the only evidence offered for why carbon emissions cause global warming. He shows lots of evidence that global warming’s occurring, but that’s the only evidence he offered for the causes – that carbon emissions cause global warming. And it gets worse than that. Turns out that there is no other evidence, and by evidence you mean that someone saw something on a particular date or there was some observations made that implicated or implied that carbon emissions cause global warming. The case that carbon emissions cause global warming is now entirely theoretical and it’s all driven by computer models and computer models and theory aren’t evidence. But it’s worse than that - something else happened. By 2006 we had a new result. You see, each cause of global warming heats the atmosphere in a different pattern, a so-called signature. The pattern for increased greenhouse warming, which would be what you’d get if you had carbon emissions causing global warming, would be an increase in the heat above the tropics at about eight to 12 kilometres up. That is to say, you’d get a hot spot there. Now, people have been looking for several decades now sending up radio sones - which are weather balloons with thermometers attached - into that region, to try and detect the hot spot. They never found it. In fact, they’re quite sure that it isn’t there. So, by 2006, we had the result that the hot spot is missing. The signature of increased greenhouse warming is missing, and therefore, we know that carbon emissions aren’t the main cause of the recent global warming. ANNOUNCER: Is there any doubt that the planet is warming up? EVANS: Uh, depends when exactly you’re talking about. You see, the planet warms up and cools down sort of like weather on a long scale, it’s always happening. Now, it’s certainly warmed up most of last century and there was a strong warming trend from about 1975 up to about 2001. Now 1998 was a very hot year, there was an El Nino event there which tends to heat the planet a little and the warming trend continued to through the end of 2001. But the satellite data, the satellite global temperature data since 2001, shows that the global temperature has been flat and maybe even dropping a little since then. ANNOUNCER: There was a spike in about 2005, but the trend line since 2001 has been down. EVANS: Slightly, yeah. ANNOUNCER: Yeah. So, a slight cooling of the planet? EVANS: Uh, it’s not really worth talking – describing – about it. It is a little cooling but you’re sort of looking for major events and long trends in this sort of game. So, you know, anything that only lasts a few months or a year doesn’t really count very much. ANNOUNCER: Well, should we read anything into the temperature of the planet stabilising in the last few years? Perhaps dipping a little? EVANS: Yeah. Yeah, for instance, since 2001, you’ve got carbon emissions continuing at their- well, accelerating. You’ve got the carbon dioxide levels continuing to increase at their usual pace. Yet the temperature has not gone up. ANNOUNCER: Now, you’re saying, also here, that actually measuring temperatures, the world’s temperature – um, land based temperature readings – it’s a bit like having a big telescope near a major city – you get light pollution. EVANS: Oh, it’s worse than that. The way you measure it using a land based system is you put a thermometer in a small box. The box is there to shade the thermometer. You usually put it in a pole so that it’s about five feet off the ground and easier to read (inaudible) and you pop this – you know, there’s a reading station somewhere out in the countryside. And these thermom- these temperature reading stations have been placed all over the world, mainly in western countries. They’ve been there for decades. The problem is, though, they were put there usually a few decades ago on the outskirts of the city, because that was convenient. But the cities have grown in the mean time. And so the micro climate around these thermometers has often changed. Someone has put a road nearby or a footpath or a house, or, in some cases, you can find cases where an air conditioning outlet is only a couple of meters away from a thermometer. And obviously this is affecting the readings. Another problem is too that the rural network of these land based thermometers largely disappeared due to funding cuts and so we’ve got the situation now that the land based thermometers are heavily corrupted by the urban heat island effect. ANNOUNCER: So, we should be relying on satellites? EVANS: Well, we can trust the satellites because they take broad sways of data across the planet, except the polar regions, 24/7, round and round they go, and they just measure the same thing all the time. ANNOUNCER: And what are the satellites telling us? EVANS: They’re telling us the temperatures have been flat or slightly down since 2001. ANNOUNCER: We’re talking to David Evans. He’s a former consultant with the Australian Greenhouse Office. He says he was a believer, and he’s now a sceptic. David, can you explain your background? What are your qualifications, and do you have any ties to industry that might have a vested interest in questioning the greenhouse proposal? EVANS: Yeah, I have vested interests. I worked for the Greenhouse Office and earned a great deal of money from the Australian Government being on the alarmist side. Apart from that, no, I have no vested interests or ties. My background is in mathematics and engineering. I have six degrees, including a PhD from Stanford in electrical engineering. Electrical engineering consists of a lot of signal processing, a lot of computer programming, finding signals, working out feedback, stuff like that – all of which is fairly applicable to understanding the current situation with climate… ANNOUNCER: Now, Rosemary of Magill, here on 891 Mornings. If you’ve just tuned in, we’re talking to David Evans, consultant to the Federal Government’s Greenhouse Office, which is now the Office of Climate Change; saying that there is now no credible link between carbon emissions and global warming - on the science. Rosemary of Magill – hello, Rosemary. CALLER: …some time ago, there was a programme on television…related to the ice cap of the North Pole…beginning of the twentieth century…ships could actually transverse the ice cap there. So, by that, obviously it wasn’t a solid block of ice like it is now – or melting, as it is now – this has happened in the past. Could you comment on that? ANNOUNCER: Dr David Evans? EVANS: (inaudible) preface it by saying, I’m an expert on the causes of the global warming, not on evidence for global warming. The extent of the ice caps in the Arctic area is an effect of global warming. We’re not disputing that global warming has occurred. We’re just wondering about the causes of it, because that’s what relevant to the upcoming emissions trading scheme and so on. Yes, in the past, the Northwest Passage has been passable. I understand that a major cause of the melt - the recent melt - in the Arctic is soot from industry and from passing ships. If you put black soot on top of very, very reflective ice, it tends to heat the ice up, because light that was previously reflected is absorbed by the soot and the heat is transferred to the ice. It’s also probably relevant to mention that the ice levels in the Antarctic, down here in the south, are higher than they’ve been for a couple of decades and that the global levels of ice are higher than normal. ANNOUNCER: So, are you saying, if you want to save the polar bears, just keep the soot and the pollution away from the ice? EVANS: Actually, it’s a serious possibility, yeah. ANNOUNCER: David Evans, we’re- we are, however, in a brave new world of emissions trading. We haven’t yet got the final model. We have the discussion paper out there and so there will be a lot of discussion around this. Should we be doing nothing about carbon emissions? Or should we not be confusing carbon emissions with the global warming debate? EVANS: Couple of points there. First of all, I don’t claim that carbon emissions have no effect, I’m saying they’re not the main cause of global warming. We know, theoretically, they must have some effect, okay? But it’s fairly minor and that signal is lost in all the noise - the- we know from the lack of the signature that it’s not the main cause. I think we should do a lot further research on climate, on alternate energies, on clean coal; and we should probably plan an emissions trading scheme, but not implement it. I think instead we should wait to see what the big countries do. Wait to see what climate research produces and wait to see whether temperatures resume going up. ANNOUNCER: But couldn’t it be too late? EVANS: No. No, not really, we know that it’s not a problem. ANNOUNCER: Well, why so? EVANS: Well, again, we know that the signature’s not there so we know that it’s not carbon emissions that are causing the problem. We can see that the temperatures aren’t going up. So there is no evidence. I mean, what I would like the press and the Opposition to do is simply ask Penny Wong, as the relevant Minister – to ask – to show the evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. We’re about to change our economy radically so as to de-carbonise it. So, obviously, the onus is on the people who wish to do that, to say, well, why? Show us the evidence. But I think you’ll find there is none; there’d be a bit of an embarrassed silence. And remember that models and theory aren’t evidence. They’re just models and theory. ANNOUNCER: Adrian of Northfield has called us. We’ve talked with David Evans, a former consultant to what is now the Office of Climate Change. Good morning, Adrian. CALLER: ….I’ve got a New Scientist mag, a recent one and I’ve become a sceptic as well, as far as carbon….I just want to read this paragraph.... “Oxygen isotopes in shell fragments show that the water around Antarctica 100 million years ago were a balmy 15 degrees.” Now, this is bearing in mind that even at that time Antarctica was still roughly where it is....it was still six months of darkness and six months of light… there was no ice and snow...Federal Government jumping into this too quickly, I think… ANNOUNCER: Adrian, thank you. And we have interviewed Penny Wong and we’ll continue to do so, and we’ve interviewed Dr Tim Flannery, recently, has a different view, and we’ll continue to canvass a broad range of views, that’s our responsibility, and Dr David Evans, thank you for bringing us your perspective. EVANS: Thank you (ENDS) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

What has annoyed me for a long time ius the believe that the prisoners at Gitmo were "caught on the battlefield". It has been proven that most were either arrested by local warlords or pointed out / accused bu locals. All for a bounty of course. Do you guys really believe that being denounced by the local warlord for money is proove you are a terrorist? You should read about the Afghan taxi driver who was accused (for money) and totally innocent. He was tortured to death in American custody. I saw a documentary with ex-MP's who described what happened at US detention facilities in the midle east..... BTW several hundred dteainees have already been released from Gitmo (only anbout 200 left now) after being detained without a hearing for years..... that should tell you something.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

There is Skydive Verona. The web site is: http://www.paracadutismoverona.it/ I saw a video presentation of the DZ at the POPS world meet last week as Verona will hold the next meet in 2010. Facilities looked good, they have a Porter as a jump ship. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Could it be that there is strong hypocritical mentality when it omes to sex in the US? I sometimes get this impression looking from afar... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Why is prostitution illegal in the US? Stupid IMHO. Your legal system and police spends time and resources on something that always will be there and if it was legal you could far better control it in regard to health issues. Just does not make sense...... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So if you found driving in NZ scary - how was driving in the larger cities like Sydney and Melbourne on OZ recently? Are you going to post any video from your Australian visit? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Read and register for the event at: http://www.ozworldpops2008.com/ --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Have a look at the attached image.... interesting view of the male mind and funny... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

It is an open letter which of course is "an opinion" , but it also refers to scientific reserach and data. Here are the credentials of those behind the letter: AWARDS & POSITIONS President, World Federation of Scientists - ZICHICHI Director of a national research funding agency (The Australian Research Council) – AITKIN Director General of a comprehensive national research agency (The New Zealand DSIR) – KEAR Chairman of the U.N. Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation - JAWOROWSKI Laureate of the UNEP Global 500 environmental program – BRYSON Director of the Australian National Secretariat for the Ocean Drilling Program – CARTER Director of a national weather observing agency (US Satellite Weather Service) – SINGER Director of the Australian National Climate Centre – KININMONTH Director of Research, Royal Dutch Meteorological Service - TENNEKES Director of the French (CNRS) Laboratory of Climatology - LEROUX Director, Institute of Environmental Science (Carlton University) – MICHEL Head of the Forecasting Centre, Norwegian Meteorological Institute - MOENE University Pro-Vice-Chancellor – ENDERSBEE State Geologist (Kansas) – GERHARD Director of Russian Institute for Economic Analysis, Advisor to President Putin – ILLARIANOV UK Chancellor of the Exchequer (Thatcher government) – LORD LAWSON Dep. Secretary of the Treasury (Australia) - MOORE President of the WMO Commission for Climatology - MAUNDER Recipient of the Donner Prize (best book on Canadian Public Policy) - MCKITRICK Recipient of Meisinger and Charney Awards (American Meteorological Society) – LINDZEN Recipient of Mills Medal in Cloud Physics of the Royal Meteorological Society – AUSTIN Recipient of Petr Beckmann Award for “courage and achievement in the defense of scientific truth” – IDSO Recipient of Chapman Medal (Royal Astronomical Society of London) - AKASOFU Recipient of the Max Planck Medal – DYSON Recipient of the Percy Nicholls Award recognizing notable scientific achievement – ESSENHIGH Editor of an environmental journal (Energy & Environment) – BOEHMER-CHRISTIANSEN Editor of a biological journal (American Midland Naturalist) – EVANS Editorial Board member (Climate Research) - KHANDEKAR IPCC expert reviewers – GRAY, COURTNEY Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science – LINDZEN Fellow of the Royal Society of New Zealand – AUSTIN, CARTER Fellow of the Geological Society of America – EASTERBROOK Fellow of the American Geophysical Union – AKOSOFU Fellow of the Royal Statistical Society – WEGMAN Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science - PALTRIDGE Hon. Member of the Royal Geological Society of the Netherlands – VAN LOON ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS Professor of Environmental Sciences - SINGER Professor of Climatology – BALL, MALBERG, LEROUX Professor of Meteorology – GRAY, W., BRYSON, LINDZEN Professor of Atmospheric Science – LUPO, PALTRIDGE, ROPER Professor of Oceanography – O’BRIEN Professor of Quaternary Geology – KARLEN, TOM VAN LOON Professor of Geology – VAN LOON, PLIMER, CARTER, EASTERBROOK, OLLIER, PATTERSON Professor of Sedimentology - PRATT Professor Marine Geology – WINTERHALTER Professor of Isotope Geology – CLARK, PRIEM Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics - MORNER Professor Chemistry – KAUFFMAN, STILBS Professor of Physics – HAYDEN, ANDRESEN, AKOSOFU, ANDRESEN, AUSTIN, DYSON, ZICHICHI Professor of Mathematical & Theoretical Physics – GERLICH Professor of Applied Mathematics – ESSEX Professor of Statistics - WEGMAN Professor of Economics – MILNE Professor Geotechnology - KROONENBERG Professor for Innovation and Technology Management – WILKSCH Professor of Energy Conversion – ESSENHIGH, KOUFFELD Professor of Engineering – MACALIK, ALEXANDER, ENDERSBEE Professor of Public Health Engineering – KOP Professor of Chemical Engineering - THOENES Distinguished Emeritus Professors – 24 in total Yeah they are all nut cases.... and funny enough the media has shown no interest in this. AGW is now the adopted new religion which all have to follow. I predict that in 10 years time after the climate still has not behaved the way the alarmist have told us the public finally will start to wake up to this. Unfortunately we will have wasted trillions of dollars on useless initiatives and corrupt carbon credit schemes.... and in the mean time China and India will have doubled their pollution...... at our expense.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Distinguished academics and researchers have sent an open letter to the UN Secretary General and the alarmists at the climate change conference in Bali, saying there’s no proof man is heating up the world to hell. Excerpts: The signatories: Don Aitkin, PhD, Professor, social scientist, retired vice-chancellor and president, University of Canberra, Australia William J.R. Alexander, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa; Member, UN Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000 Bjarne Andresen, PhD, physicist, Professor, The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark Geoff L. Austin, PhD, FNZIP, FRSNZ, Professor, Dept. of Physics, University of Auckland, New Zealand Timothy F. Ball, PhD, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg Ernst-Georg Beck, Dipl. Biol., Biologist, Merian-Schule Freiburg, Germany Sonja A. Boehmer-Christiansen, PhD, Reader, Dept. of Geography, Hull University, U.K.; Editor, Energy & Environment journal Chris C. Borel, PhD, remote sensing scientist, U.S. Reid A. Bryson, PhD, DSc, DEngr, UNE P. Global 500 Laureate; Senior Scientist, Center for Climatic Research; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology, of Geography, and of Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin Dan Carruthers, M.Sc., wildlife biology consultant specializing in animal ecology in Arctic and Subarctic regions, Alberta R.M. Carter, PhD, Professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia Ian D. Clark, PhD, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa Richard S. Courtney, PhD, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K. Willem de Lange, PhD, Dept. of Earth and Ocean Sciences, School of Science and Engineering, Waikato University, New Zealand David Deming, PhD (Geophysics), Associate Professor, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Oklahoma Freeman J. Dyson, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J. Don J. Easterbrook, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Geology, Western Washington University Lance Endersbee, Emeritus Professor, former dean of Engineering and Pro-Vice Chancellor of Monasy University, Australia Hans Erren, Doctorandus, geophysicist and climate specialist, Sittard, The Netherlands Robert H. Essenhigh, PhD, E.G. Bailey Professor of Energy Conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University Christopher Essex, PhD, Professor of Applied Mathematics and Associate Director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario David Evans, PhD, mathematician, carbon accountant, computer and electrical engineer and head of 'Science Speak,' Australia William Evans, PhD, editor, American Midland Naturalist; Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Notre Dame Stewart Franks, PhD, Professor, Hydroclimatologist, University of Newcastle, Australia R. W. Gauldie, PhD, Research Professor, Hawai'i Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, School of Ocean Earth Sciences and Technology, University of Hawai'i at Manoa Lee C. Gerhard, PhD, Senior Scientist Emeritus, University of Kansas; former director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey Gerhard Gerlich, Professor for Mathematical and Theoretical Physics, Institut für Mathematische Physik der TU Braunschweig, Germany Albrecht Glatzle, PhD, sc.agr., Agro-Biologist and Gerente ejecutivo, INTTAS, Paraguay Fred Goldberg, PhD, Adjunct Professor, Royal Institute of Technology, Mechanical Engineering, Stockholm, Sweden Vincent Gray, PhD, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001, Wellington, New Zealand William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus, Dept. of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University and Head of the Tropical Meteorology Project Howard Hayden, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Connecticut Louis Hissink MSc, M.A.I.G., editor, AIG News, and consulting geologist, Perth, Western Australia Craig D. Idso, PhD, Chairman, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Arizona Sherwood B. Idso, PhD, President, Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, AZ, USA Andrei Illarionov, PhD, Senior Fellow, Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity; founder and director of the Institute of Economic Analysis Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman - Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland Jon Jenkins, PhD, MD, computer modelling - virology, NSW, Australia Wibjorn Karlen, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden Olavi Kärner, Ph.D., Research Associate, Dept. of Atmospheric Physics, Institute of Astrophysics and Atmospheric Physics, Toravere, Estonia Joel M. Kauffman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia David Kear, PhD, FRSNZ, CMG, geologist, former Director-General of NZ Dept. of Scientific & Industrial Research, New Zealand Madhav Khandekar, PhD, former research scientist, Environment Canada; editor, Climate Research (2003-05); editorial board member, Natural Hazards; IPCC expert reviewer 2007 William Kininmonth M.Sc., M.Admin., former head of Australia's National Climate Centre and a consultant to the World Meteorological organization's Commission for Climatology Jan J.H. Kop, MSc Ceng FICE (Civil Engineer Fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers), Emeritus Prof. of Public Health Engineering, Technical University Delft, The Netherlands Prof. R.W.J. Kouffeld, Emeritus Professor, Energy Conversion, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Salomon Kroonenberg, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Geotechnology, Delft University of Technology, The Netherlands Hans H.J. Labohm, PhD, economist, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations), The Netherlands The Rt. Hon. Lord Lawson of Blaby, economist; Chairman of the Central Europe Trust; former Chancellor of the Exchequer, U.K. Douglas Leahey, PhD, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary David R. Legates, PhD, Director, Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware Marcel Leroux, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS Bryan Leyland, International Climate Science Coalition, consultant and power engineer, Auckland, New Zealand William Lindqvist, PhD, independent consulting geologist, Calif. Richard S. Lindzen, PhD, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology A.J. Tom van Loon, PhD, Professor of Geology (Quaternary Geology), Adam Mickiewicz University, Poznan, Poland; former President of the European Association of Science Editors Anthony R. Lupo, PhD, Associate Professor of Atmospheric Science, Dept. of Soil, Environmental, and Atmospheric Science, University of Missouri-Columbia Richard Mackey, PhD, Statistician, Australia Horst Malberg, PhD, Professor for Meteorology and Climatology, Institut für Meteorologie, Berlin, Germany John Maunder, PhD, Climatologist, former President of the Commission for Climatology of the World Meteorological Organization (89-97), New Zealand Alister McFarquhar, PhD, international economy, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K. Ross McKitrick, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph John McLean, PhD, climate data analyst, computer scientist, Australia Owen McShane, PhD, economist, head of the International Climate Science Coalition; Director, Centre for Resource Management Studies, New Zealand Fred Michel, PhD, Director, Institute of Environmental Sciences and Associate Professor of Earth Sciences, Carleton University Frank Milne, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Economics, Queen's University Asmunn Moene, PhD, former head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway Alan Moran, PhD, Energy Economist, Director of the IPA's Deregulation Unit, Australia Nils-Axel Morner, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Paleogeophysics & Geodynamics, Stockholm University, Sweden Lubos Motl, PhD, Physicist, former Harvard string theorist, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic John Nicol, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Physics, James Cook University, Australia David Nowell, M.Sc., Fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, former chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa James J. O'Brien, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Meteorology and Oceanography, Florida State University Cliff Ollier, PhD, Professor Emeritus (Geology), Research Fellow, University of Western Australia Garth W. Paltridge, PhD, atmospheric physicist, Emeritus Professor and former Director of the Institute of Antarctic and Southern Ocean Studies, University of Tasmania, Australia R. Timothy Patterson, PhD, Professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University Al Pekarek, PhD, Associate Professor of Geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, Minnesota Ian Plimer, PhD, Professor of Geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia Brian Pratt, PhD, Professor of Geology, Sedimentology, University of Saskatchewan Harry N.A. Priem, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Planetary Geology and Isotope Geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences Alex Robson, PhD, Economics, Australian National University Colonel F.P.M. Rombouts, Branch Chief - Safety, Quality and Environment, Royal Netherland Air Force R.G. Roper, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Institute of Technology Arthur Rorsch, PhD, Emeritus Professor, Molecular Genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, B.C. Tom V. Segalstad, PhD, (Geology/Geochemistry), Head of the Geological Museum and Associate Professor of Resource and Environmental Geology, University of Oslo, Norway Gary D. Sharp, PhD, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, CA S. Fred Singer, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Sciences, University of Virginia and former director Weather Satellite Service L. Graham Smith, PhD, Associate Professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario Roy W. Spencer, PhD, climatologist, Principal Research Scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville Peter Stilbs, TeknD, Professor of Physical Chemistry, Research Leader, School of Chemical Science and Engineering, KTH (Royal Institute of Technology), Stockholm, Sweden Hendrik Tennekes, PhD, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute Dick Thoenes, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Chemical Engineering, Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands Brian G Valentine, PhD, PE (Chem.), Technology Manager - Industrial Energy Efficiency, Adjunct Associate Professor of Engineering Science, University of Maryland at College Park; Dept of Energy, Washington, DC Gerrit J. van der Lingen, PhD, geologist and paleoclimatologist, climate change consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand Len Walker, PhD, Power Engineering, Australia Edward J. Wegman, PhD, Department of Computational and Data Sciences, George Mason University, Virginia Stephan Wilksch, PhD, Professor for Innovation and Technology Management, Production Management and Logistics, University of Technolgy and Economics Berlin, Germany Boris Winterhalter, PhD, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland David E. Wojick, PhD, P.Eng., energy consultant, Virginia Raphael Wust, PhD, Lecturer, Marine Geology/Sedimentology, James Cook University, Australia A. Zichichi, PhD, President of the World Federation of Scientists, Geneva, Switzerland; Emeritus Professor of Advanced Physics, University of Bologna, Italy --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You only give credit to the snippets of information that suits you. There is no doubt that the Arctic has been warming, but guess what - it has happened before - or why do you think the Vikings called Greenland green and New Foundland "Wine-land"? There is also new reserach that shows that gleciers in the Arctic have been receeding before in history like they are now. What you forget to mention is a) that ice is INCREASING in Antartica - which has far more influence on sea levels then the Artic ever had and b) that global average temperatures have NOT increased in later years and are different from what was predicted by the IPCC. The University of Illinois’ Arctic Climate Research says sea ice in the Southern Hemisphere is way above what it was at the same time last year - see attached graph. Alexandre Aguiar of MetSul Weather Center notes: Not that the media is interested in the above-normal ice down there, when it can panic about the below-normal ice around the North Pole. Er, make that “can” a “could”. As in past tense. Aguiar continues: On another note, Christopher Monckton ( critic of the AGW and the IPCC) says the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has quietly admitted to exaggerating the possible rise in sea levels. But it’s still hiding an even worse distortion: I also hope you have a nice warm winter over there in the US - oops no - it's quite cold - isn't it.... I have a good friend who is senior scientist at the Australian Bureau of Meteorology. He is a specialst in temperature measurements (instruments) and says that a lot of the temperatures taken at "ground" level are BS because of the increased urbanisation and that Satellite measurements are far better. He also confirmed to me that he knows his collegues are on the GW bandwagon because it ensures funding and jobs. He is responsible for the international cooperation and told me that 2007 will not show warming globally and that they currently are predicted a cooling going forward.... Which fits nicely with the following: What Britain’s Met Office predicted in January: But Dr David Whitehouse, astronomer and author of The Sun: A Biography, discovers in December: Whitehouse adds: And finally a word of warning from the Pope and he is well connected... The Pope now realises that many are preaching an apocalyptic faith that isn’t Catholicism: --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

It is really amazing to see how easy this is getting for you Yes, especially after posting how hot it recently has been in the US. The interesting issue is - if anybody cares - that it looks like it is the Artic areas which are getting warmer. The other areas are not showing the warming in recent years - including the Antartica which holds most of the ice ( so the sea level issue is more dependent on the Antartic - not the Artic). It has been shown that the ice areas have been melting before and the temperatures were much higher kust 1000 years ago - or why do you think the Vikings called Greenland green and New Foundlan "Wine land" - Vinland..... The climate has always been in a process of change, but that does not suit the greenies - who are more concerned telling us that cow manure is bad and we shoul feed our kids ratts and goat milk (Heather Mills) then looking at the enormous direct pollution in China and India. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, the only thing I can say is that the hysterics and followers of the holy church of the alarmist GW religion will not like the data starting to be collected. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/25/nbook125.xml --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So when high CO2 concentration in the past did not trigger GW why would they now?? All this "the science is settled" is BS. I saw a survey of IPCC panel scientist that showed quite a few of them are not that certain (unfortunately can't find the link now). Ah, now the temperature in NY is an indicatopr for global temperatures. Well then let ne raise you that the temperature in large part of Antartica is actually falling... But the "hard to say" is BS - the global temperature measured show that 1998 was the warmest year and since the n it has flattened out - which is NOT what the IPCC predicted and is not following the CO2 trend. It will be interesting to see what people will say in 10 years when the current GW theories have been shot down by what actually happened, and we will count the cost. All reminds me abouty the Y2K hysteria.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Ice core research has shown that in the past increased CO2 concentrations did not preceed wraming periods but followed them. There is now more and more evidence that the current temperature pattern is NOT following the predictions: Dr David Whitehouse - astronomer, former BBC science correspondent, and author of The Sun: A Biography writes: The fact that the recent warming period can be divided into two distinct periods is surely instructive and has a direct bearing on the IPCC’s projections for the future and its mitigation strategies. The period 1980 -98 was one of rapid warming - a temperature anomaly of about 0.6 degrees C or 0.3 deg C per decade (CO2 rose from 340ppm to 370ppm). Since then the global temperature has been flat (whilst the CO2 has risen from 370ppm to 380ppm) meaning that the global temperature is about 0.3 deg less than it would have been had the rapid increase continued… The 1980 - 98 increase is generally similar to the increase seen between 1910 and 1940 which was 0.6 deg C in 30 years. It may be that the current flatlining of global temperature will be similar to that seen between 1940 and 1980 in that it will be followed by another increase (as the UK’s Met Office believes will commence in 2009) but we don’t know. Incidentally, all the indications are that the global temperature of 2007 will be the coolest since 2000. This is interesting as there have been no significant volcanic events and no La Nina cooling… There is a growing school of thought that suggests that the next solar cycle, cycle 24, could be weak and possibly the start of a prolonged period of low activity. There are certainly signs of a decline after a significant increase in solar activity throughout most of the last century. In the past when this has occurred the Earth has cooled though by what mechanism is unknown. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Al Gore is in Australia at the moment giving lunch speaches for $1000 a head. An Australian columnist has a fw questions he suggests people ask Al during the lunch: --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

THIS is the biggest laugh from the APEC meeting. Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaXHKIFiTzo --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Maybe, but he still has time to post in the SC forum on dz.com..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Yes, obesity – especially in children – is a growing problem down here. It is however not as bad as what I have seen in the US. I think your food and especially the size of your portions are just unhealthy. I have an 8 year old son who likes burgers and fast food like other kids, but I make at least sure he works all the calories off again. Instead of letting him sit in front of the TV / playstation all day after school and on week-neds, I make sure he does sport every day: swimming, Australian Rules football, basketball and taekwondo. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The UK thread obsession by our good friend John Rich has actually caused me to think about this issue when I saw Michael Moore’s “Sicko”. While interesting and highly amusing, the film annoyed me to no end by the extend it used other countries health care systems (including Cuba ) to criticize the US system. As a matter of principle I am a supporter of a socialized health care system, however – no system is perfect and differences in management of the system can lead to major differences in the outcomes it delivers. Looking at my Scandinavian roots and the many years I have lived in Australia – I find it interesting how we down under generally achieve a better health outcome to the majority of the population then most Scandinavian systems which use far more money as a % of GDP on health. What it tells me is that it is highly problematic to take one country’s unique issues and translate it to another’s. From what I have seen about the US health system, it seems it is in major need of reform. It does however make no sense to just say e.g. “let’s copy the NHS from the UK". So what’s my point with this? Well, I think that while we always should look and learn from others experience, we should always keep in mind that every country has it’s own unique circumstances, structures, history and culture. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, we are a Nation founded by convicts - you fit right in here... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This is fun. now Well thanks to John Rich I learned yesterday that by using google for 30 minutes I have enough material to start about 10 threads "John Rich style" poo pooing the US on domestic issues if I wanted to. All this by sitting here in sunny Melbourne (it's wonderfull early spring weather right now) on the other side of the globe. Well at least I have been in the US many times and visited about 10 different States. John has never been in the UK. I think we should hold a collection for him to buy a ticket (one way?) so he can get himself arrested for gun possesion, bashed and stabbed in London and then registred in a database... I am always happy to discuss US foreign policy as it affects us outside the US. I would however normally never get into US domestic issues. I do not live there, it's not really my business, and I have not enough first hand knowledge.... if just JR would think this way..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

OK, now I get it. SC is a place where you post whatever you can google about your obsession.... Allright, more then one can play the game. I see your database and raise you mortality rate: "In the news" U.S. Life Expectancy Below That Of 41 Other Nations Life expectancy in the U.S. has reached its highest point ever, but it is exceeded by the rates in 41 other countries, the AP/Arizona Daily Star reports. The U.S. has been slipping for decades in international rankings of life expectancies as other countries are improving health care, nutrition and lifestyles, according to the AP/Daily Star. Countries that rank above the U.S. include Japan, most of Europe, Jordan and the Cayman Islands. A U.S. resident born in 2004 has a life expectancy of 77.9 years, placing the U.S. in 42nd place, down from 11th place two decades ago. Researchers say the lower U.S. ranking is attributed to the high uninsured rate among the population, in addition to rising obesity rates and racial disparities in life expectancy. Black U.S. residents have a shorter life span, at 73.3 years, than whites. The U.S. also has a high infant mortality rate compared with other industrialized nations, with 40 countries having lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. in 2004. The country with the longest life expectancy is Andorra at 83.5 years. Swaziland is last at 34.1 years, attributed to sub-Saharan Africa's high rate of HIV and AIDS, as well as famine and civil strife. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Tsk, tsk ... your obsession with the UK knows no limit. Let me repeat what I posted in another thread: Instead of being so obsessed with the UK, you might want to focus more on some of the pressing issues in the US – which according to so many Americans is the best country in the world: 1) The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 686 per 100,000 of the national population (a total of about 2 million – the highest in total in the world), followed by the Cayman Islands (664), Russia (638), Belarus (554), Kazakhstan (522), Turkmenistan (489), Belize (459), Bahamas (447), Suriname (437) and Dominica (420). The UK has 139 per 100,000 (about one fifth of the US). 2) The overall performance of the United States health care system was ranked 37th by the World Health Organization (WHO) in 2000, but the same report assessed Americans' overall health at 72nd among 191 member nations included in the study 3) The murder rate in the US is 0.042802 per 1,000 people which is three times as high as the UK (0.0140633 per 1,000 people ). 4) In the US 13% of all households total income are under the US federal poverty threshold. The bottom 20% of households had a yearly total income of less then $19,178. In the UK the bottom 20% of households income was (converted for exchange rate) about $27 thousand or less – i.e. about 40% more. 5) The average composite literacy score of native-born adults in the U.S. was 284 (Level 3); the U.S. ranked 10th out of 17 high-income countries; The average composite literacy score of foreign-born adults in the U.S. was 210 (Level 1); the U.S. ranked 16th out of 17 countries. So dear John, seems to me there is lot here for you to sink your teeth into on domestic issues instead of taking every snippet of “bad news” from the UK . --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.