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I understand that you're assuming that he meant that it continued to dive without input, but be creative. Maybe he did dive for 1200 ft.... It would require a LONG, SLOW carve, with both front risers very deep, and nearly symmetrical, but assuming you could hold them down long enough, you could do it on almost ANY canopy. Especially on a canopy that doesn't have a strong tendency to recover into horizontal flight. Now, if you just snap it, and let it up-- it would be improbable to say the least, but I wouldn't say impossible for some canopy at some wing loading (admittedly, only in extreme circumstances with current designs) to dive 1200ft in a 90 degree turn using a single front riser. But to use how much Derek dives during his hook as a unit of measurement is restricting your idea of canopy flight to a very narrow domain. A different way for Samurai136 to report what he might have seen would be, "I have seen a guy flying a Xaos drop 1200ft on a 90 degree riser to final, and I believe that he could have continued to dive it further." I'm just suggesting that there is another very important variable here: the pilot. Put Chuck on Derek's VX 60 @ 3.1 (with weights, I would assume) and you'll see something completely different than what you'd see when Derek hooks. To relate this to what we were talking about before, it's hard to say how much a canopy will plane out-- it's not just a function of the canopy (or the design, or the size, or the wingloading, etc.), far from it (but of course these things play a part). Every time there's a competition, there are new records set, on different types of canopies, by pilots with different styles. We continue to see things that we've never seen before. And there are probably pilots out there that don't compete, that are doing things the rest of us didn't even know were possible. We're not through the experimental phase yet, and nobody knows all the answers. I'm not really arguing with anybody here, just suggesting ideas. Jason

Competitor opinion: of all the "higher" performance canopies that I've jumped (Cobalt 120@1.9, Xaos-21 98@2.3, Xaos-27 94@2.5, Velocity 90@2.6, I didn't do well with the latter two in competition because of the ridiculously high wingloadings...) I've never experienced one with a "negative" recovery arc, as I've seen it defined here, though it may be a product of style. If you're style is conducive to achieving the greatest distance (i.e. more carving, less snapping) I've noticed that if you come back to the natural glide angle with more speed than the natural glide speed, you will continue to plane out (not necessarily to flat, but flatter than natural glide). I've been able to do this on all of the canopies listed above. Less easily with those loaded more heavily, though I've been able to plane out very near to flat with the Xaos-21 98 with no input. I'm sure I could have with the Cobalt, but I sent it back before I really dialed it in.... I believe it can be done with a reasonable wingloading (for the design) on *most* any canopy. That's why I'm in the process of moving to a larger canopy, maybe between 105-111. Oh yeah, experience (this summer): 3rd ASC, 6th PPPB Pro accuracy in Perris, sucked at Rantoul, PSNs, and ME-- I learned the hard way why everyone isn't generally flying above 2.3.... Jason

Please help me understand the "cascaded lined" part.... I'm not following how that has anything to do with rigidity and speed. Jason

I'd go with the bigger one and use weights if you have to, like Chuck said. I'm still kicking myself in the ass for buying a main on the smaller side, and leaving myself no room to play with wing loading. Jason

Tell me: how does your container play a major role in weight shift in your harness? If you're saying that different harnesses react differently due to rings, I'll disagree as I have in the past. If you have your chest strap loose enough, the two sides of the harness are nearly independent systems, free to move, regardless of type. The only thing that I can think of that would make a difference is a solid construction butt-strap that keeps the leg straps too close. I've never jumped or even seen a modern container on which either the yoke or the lower horizontal webbing (that connects to the container) inhibits harness movement. Please explain. Jason

You can do harness turns on almost any canopy (okay, maybe not a Manta 288), but on some you might have to initiate it with a different control. I don't know... 1.1? 1.2? Depends on the design. Try starting a turn with a front riser, then continuing it with harness input. You might be surprised. Jason

The shape of his canopy in that picture has nothing to do with crossbraces or airlocks or their characteristics. That will happen to any canopy when one quickly pulls a front riser significantly farther than the other front riser (snap hook). You just don't see so many people doing that anymore. Jason

Terry Arnold Airworks 14201 Seneca Road Germantown Maryland 20874 (301) 869-6415 I know him personally. Does good work... he's a master rigger. Jason

I believe this is negligible when compared with the drag created by the wing itself (form drag). Especially if the canopy is lined with HMA, Vectran, or Spectra. Okay, so after only 11 jumps on this canopy, I'm getting longer, faster landings than with my 21. It also carves very easily. Oh, and this deserves a paragraph for itself... the openings are sweet! Just as nice as the -21 openings. All soft & on heading so far. High altitude, terminal, sub-terminal. Very nice. Here are some other observations (comparing a -27 94 to a -21 98): the toggle control range is very deep, especially since I have them set about 1.5" longer than the factory settings. The rear riser pressure is higher and rear riser turns are slightly faster. Front riser pressure starts about equal, then builds much higher. Front riser turns may also be slightly faster.... It responds just a bit more to harness input. Forward speed in natural glide is a bit faster and forward speed after a speed building maneuver is a lot faster. It doesn't seem to dive too much more, but it feels like it builds up and maintains a lot more speed. I might get a new set of lower brake lines, 'cause the ones that it came with are the two piece type that tend to snag on the guide ring. I like the single piece style with a small, double fingertrapped section, that sticks out for the brake settings. I will say this: this is the canopy that I'll be using in competition. Jason Also, thanks to all at Precision (especially Chris) for getting the canopy to me so quickly. I couldn't believe it when my dealer already had it at the beginning of the weekend.

Okay, we got lower spanwise distortion. Probably also a slightly cleaner wing chordwise (since the cross braces cover the entire chord, like Velocity & VX, unlike FX & 21). Same aspect ratio. Same shape? Airfoil & planform? Same trim? I don't know. Anyway...a cleaner, more efficient wing. The one improvement I'm looking for in the 27 over the 21 is more speed maintenance. Even if I've completely nailed a landing on the 21, even when I'm swooping along in rear risers, I feel like it decelerates fairly quickly. I've had slightly better luck on a Velocity. I wonder, will this quality improve on the 27? If it does, and all else is equal, I've found my canopy. Jason Oh yeah, the reasons I still prefer a 21 over a Velocity are: better openings and longer control range (I seem to prefer that, especially in front risers). It's mostly the openings though... the Velocity I jumped was like a box of chocolates.

Yeah, that went off really well. I think there's something like 22 new bird-men out there. And at least 5 suits ordered. I wish I got to do more than one jump on that GTI, it rocked. Now if we can just get a canopy swooping competition at Orange.... Jason I'm slow... This is all in the other post.

I thought that might be the case, but I was told by Precision that the aspect ratio of the 27 was about the same as the 21. Huh... So what are the differences in flight characteristics? What size/loading was your 21? Jason

Yes, I disagree. And please do me a favor and don't try to prove yourself correct. I've seen horrible things happen with botched rear riser landings. Let me clarify: you can shorten your recovery arc with rear risers, you can "trim" out your dive with rear risers, you can swoop in rear risers. But if you're in a position where you need to get out of the corner to save your ass, you should NEVER use the rear risers! I'm sure the Crossfire2 is a great canopy, but don't get overconfident. And keep in mind that the stall speed for rear risers is much higher. Jason

That was in response to the guy who asked that question in G&R... in case you were wondering. Jason

I posted this in the G&R forum... thought I'd put it here too.... You might try some strait in rear riser landings in case you have a brake line snap on opening and you'd rather not chop it, but as far as high performance landings go, I wouldn't worry about rear risers for a long time. Especially for recoveries. You can't dig out of the corner with rear risers. Try it up high and you'll see why I say that. Plus, if you were already on toggles after doing some speed building maneuver (you'd have to be for a steering line to snap), it was already way too late to use rear risers. Rear riser stalls are quick, hard to predict, and even violent. They'll drop you on the ground before you even know what happened, and if that happens in the corner, you're in big trouble. How do you transition from rear risers to toggles? It takes lots and lots of practice. Everyone has thier own method, but I'll tell you this much: you should to do it in such a way that you'll be least likely to lose a toggle. But once again, that's a very advanced technique and probably isn't something you should be worried about. Jason

You might try some strait in rear riser landings in case you have a brake line snap on opening and you'd rather not chop it, but as far as high performance landings go, I wouldn't worry about rear risers for a long time. Especially for recoveries. You can't dig out of the corner with rear risers. Try it up high and you'll see why I say that. Plus, if you were already on toggles after doing some speed building maneuver (you'd have to be for a steering line to snap), it was already way too late to use rear risers. Rear riser stalls are quick, hard to predict, and even violent. They'll drop you on the ground before you even know what happened, and if that happens in the corner, you're in big trouble. How do you transition from rear risers to toggles? It takes lots and lots of practice. Everyone has thier own method, but I'll tell you this much: you should to do it in such a way that you'll be least likely to lose a toggle. But once again, that's a very advanced technique and probably isn't something you should be worried about. Jason

Quite possibly. Although two of my friends that demo'd two other different Cobalts of two different sizes also had the problem. I'd like to demo a Competition Cobalt and see how it compares to my Xaos' and the Velocity I've been jumping. But to tell you the truth, I probably won't. Jason

Rhino, Come on, enough with the rhetorical questions.... The Crossfire2 is clearly an inferior canopy to the [drum roll please] Competition Cobalt. No other canopy can possibly compare [unless it is made by Atair Aerodynamics]. A person will almost believe it if it's shoved in his face enough. Jason

The openings on my Xaos-21 have been much better than on the demo Cobalt I tried. The Cobalt spanked me on about every third opening and was much worse on high deployments. I've deployed the Xaos at terminal above 12,000 ft many times and it has always opened very softly, unlike the Cobalt or the Velocity. I'd be more comfortable under a Xaos deploying at high speeds. No, I didn't touch the risers during opening. Yes, I followed all of Atair's packing directions. Jason

First of all, it's not an exact science. The point is that you can get the most out of a given turn by using a certain rate of turn. I've found that the smaller the turn, the slower the rate of turn has to be to build up the most speed (and front riser pressure). For example, if I'm doing a 90, I feel like I need to do it very slowly to get the most out of it; I'll start it in double front risers and keep the turn rate slow by using both throughout the turn. With a 360, I can build the same amount of speed with a higher turn rate and a steeper dive, but it takes about the same amount of time (probably a little longer with smaller turns since it's harder to build speed because the turn isn't as steep). However, I've found that the starting altitudes are not quite the same, but they're very close. I'll lose more altitude doing a 360 than a 270 or a 180, 90, etc.. But I won't do a 180 in exactly half the altitude that I would do a 360, because that wouldn't leave me enough time to build up speed. So I'll stretch the 180 across maybe 3/4 the altitude required for a 360, so I'll have more time to build speed. The same would go for a 270, except I'd stretch that over more like 7/8 of the altitude required for a 360. Does this make sense? Jason

No, I've already sold my black and white 21. The 27 will be a 94. Should load it between 2.4 and 2.5. That's a little heavy, but I liked the way my 21s flew between 2.3 and 2.4. We'll see. Jason

Holy $#!+!!! Who jumped that again? Is he okay? I haven't even had a hard opening in 200+ jumps on my 98.... Those larger sizes must be totally different animals. If it broke that many lines, tore fabric, tape, and stitching, I'm sure that opening would have affected any canopy-- lined with Spectra, Vectran or aircraft cables! If it was line dump, then I'm glad I've been using small super-bandz and skybands. Nothing else will hold the lines tightly. Jason

I'll let you know how my Xaos-27 is once it comes in... should be a week or two. Jason

Yes, by special request, I believe. Give them a call. Jason

In that first picture (canopy just coming out of the bag) it looks like he's still on the hill i.e. not at terminal. Did you try it sub-terminal first? I must be mistaken, but I thought Luigi jumped the VX 46 with weights for wingloadings of up to 4.6. Did he not? Jason