Ron

Ya know for quoting Sun Tzu you have very little grasp of the ways of warfare. Read up on the Bushido and let me know what you think. I also have several books on the Kamakazi pilots I can loan you. Valuable insite into the mindset of the Japanese at that time. The level of the willingness to die to protect the Emperor and Japan was not really known till much after the war. And some still do not understand it. Really read up on it, and then get back to me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And that is the ONLY reason they did. The Emperor did not ask congress to surrender till AFTER the second bomb. It is hindsite, but it is not incorrect. And youhave yet to show MILITARY experts saying it was a bad choice. Wrong...I guess you would have rather exterminated an entire nation? It would have taken that. They had 2.5 MILLION well armed people, and the rest of the nation would have fought along side them. If it was not for the fact that they thought they had no chance by us turning them into ashes...It would have been bloody as hell. You can bring up that Russia joining made them think...but they knew Russia was going to join us for mths and it did nothing. An invasion of Japan would have been long, and bloody. Think about Iraq, and magnify that a million times. If the Emperor had not begged congress to surrender it would have been ugly. As it was the War General commited suicide the day after the surrender in shame. I REALLY suggest you study the code of the Bushido a bit...Remember they were willing to commit suicide to win. They had 20,000 Kamakazi pilots waiting. Seriously...Read up on Bushido..Some of those guys were still fighting the war 30 years later. http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I said MILITARY experts. All already covered....They may have wanted to surrender, but they could not. They had plenty of time to answer the Potsdam accord, but the first response to it was Aug 10, the day AFTER the second bomb. And even the Japanese knew it: Even the Emperor says it: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You mean guys that were higher ups in "tradititional army". The same kind of Army that would not be needed? Find some modern military experts that disagree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Who said it was not about WMD's? Last I checked several people thought he had them. No threat of WMD's? They don't give money to terroists? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK informal poll of one page. (Top page) Pro Bush/Anti Kerry = 8 Pro Kerry/Anti Bush = 7 Not bad... However it seems more threads that start neutral get hijacked by Anti-bush guys first. What can I say I bored at work? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but some did one thing,a nd others di the opposite....Not exactly good for the situation. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some States said it was legal, others said it was illegal...MO. comes to mind. Well now there is a problem. A Marriage in Mass could not be legal in MO. Thats a problem. BTW you might be suprized here...I have floped. I am not against legal unions of gays....I don't think it's a marriage since I still think that marriage is a religious term and therefore it should be left to the churches. But I do see the need for some kind of legal union. I'm still not crazy about the right to adopt...But this site has given me more info about the situation and my views have changed some. Don't expect me to get a rainbow support sticker or anything. Have fun with that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WOW you and I agree on something.....I guess it had to happen at some point. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey he has about the same validity as your attacks on Bush "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What the States can do as they please...He is asking to be left out of it. He got drug in by the States not being able to do anything.. I have to be honest I don't see flop...I see a guy getting dranged into a situation he didn't want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You may find some if you open your mind. Of course I don't see that happening. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No actually I made fun of your dodging the question with the "Black Helicopter" comment. Duh, just like you used it to be against me. It's a simple concept, you don't normally cite things that disagree with your view. You were a few classes away from getting a degree from a Seminary school. You can't transfer those credits since you owe that school money over something. Good for you, but then why are you debating me now? I like to debate since it sharpens or challenges my view point. A healthy discussion is a great way to learn. Hell, its fun now. It's a shame you would rather hold on to your beliefs than bring them out to be questioned. That does not make you an expert on the military or even give you a real foundation for the military experience. Its like trying to get someone to understand a skydive that has never jumped...you can't. Well in your job as a school recruiter it makes sense to me that people looking to go back to school are not happy with what they were or are doing....It's called selective sampling. How many of those 5 are using the GI bill to go back to school? Yep, but that does not make mine or yours "wrong". What a great country where people are free to make their own minds and openly debate everything huh? A freedom I might add that was won with a gun "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Can you show me this? I don't remember it. If he did say the former and the later...Then he did flip flop. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, nice try again. What I am saying is that I am sure that he would rather leave it to the States. However, since the States are making a big mess of it, and that it will effect other states unless all the States agree on the same thing..Ya can't have a legal marriage in one State be illegal in another now can you? But thats what we have now. At those times it might be needed for the Federal Government to step in and make the choice. I am quite sure he would rather leave it alone...But it is an issue now that some consider it legal and others do not. What States ALLOW same sex marriage right now? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And what a fine job the States have done with it. Maybe it was the inability of the States to handle it that made it an issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Part of being the VICE-President is that your opinion is second to the Presidents. (Kinda the whole point of Vice yaknow.) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well good for you, but that does not mean they were correct about everything. The simple facts are that the Japanese were not willing to surrender. If you had ANY clue about the code of Bushido you would know that it is better to die in battle or commit suicide than surrender. Kerry well this was a post about him, but it turned into uninformed people voiceing opinions about the US's use of a second weapon in Japan to end WWII. As for the sky...It's grey here in FL. And anyone that has been on these forums for 10 min knows that you will not agree with me. Your reasons for that are yours. And you are just like the non-military group that thinks that just because we can follow orders means we can't think. However all military people were at one time civilians (and some are civilians again). While you will never know anything about the military other than your "perceptions". 9 out of 10 times I would say it makes them better people....But you will of course not agree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope...but nice try. Just because he does not support what Bush wants its not a flip flop... Cheney has always supported his daughter, and even in the text of your artical he says that he opposed it 4 years ago. Him being vocal about it not is a play by the Republicans to gain some support from that segment, but it is not a flip-flop. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Way to dodge the question! My school DID say that Oswald was the lone gunman. The evidence does not seem that way anymore, and the last texbook I saw said there *might* have been a second gunman. Mine didn't say anything about a possible second gunman. Imagine what FACTS we will have in 30 more years? Sometimes the REAL information does not come out till many years later, and school books don't always have it correct. BTW Bread is about 1.29 here. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did your great school teach you that Oswald was the lone gunman? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Yes. However we had support from MOST of the Congress (I think ONE person abstained). 2. Yep, 59 years ago we dropped two Nukes. Estimates claim that 500,000 lives were saved by using those weapons to end a WAR started by Japans attack on Pearl Harbor. Vs. SH using gas to kill innocent civilians to "Test what would happen". 3. Yep. We even sponsored OBL. But that was the Government vs ONE man. You have shown that the US has doone bad things...But SH did them all HIMSELF. I agree. WE? You and I Bill? I don't remember doing that. Or a few assholes that are Americans? There is a difference. Yep, 59 years ago this mth we dropped two nukes on Japan. However, it was during a WAR and used to end that war and it saved lives. Of interest is that both Germany and Japan were working on such weapons as well. Well we used to be bitter enemies with Russia as well. Things change. I am saying that we had some bad intel...But it also removed an asshole from power. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WOW talking about the wingman taking one for the team. Thats a Bronze Star! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They did exactly that: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because they use civilians as shields at times, and some of those same "innocent" civilians are also fighters. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334