Ron

He responded to a post by you that SEEMED very much like a troll. I thought the same thing to be honest. Most people with 600 jumps would not have to ask that question. You did start this by PMing him....a PA. Ya know that attutude sucks...I am not surprized people thought you are a troll. And you still contiune the act. Plus you are the guy that started this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1034649#1034649 Where many also thougth you were trolling. That sentance alone is loaded with parts that scream troll. And you never mentioned the name of the gear even though you claimed it was faulty. You have a history of making posts that seem to be trolling. And Tim is one of the better teachers I know of (and almost a teammate). I listen when he speaks. You of coyrse may tell me to "Suck a nut" if you like. But it does not change the fact you make posts that seem to be nothing but trolling. As for deploying your reserve: Nothing against it, unless you planned on doing it. then it becomes a question for the FAA. Not very smart in any case since it wears on the gear and it is your last chance...Plus it will open hard and that hurts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is against the law to pack it....You risk any ticket the FAA gave you, and fines. I personally am quite pissed at CYPRES for having a life time...The popular ad that was around when I bought mine said "It will be skydiving longer than you will". I wish another AAD was an option.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very simple. An AAD that does not fire does not kill someone. It will not SAVE them, but that does not ADD to the danger. An AAD that misfires ADDS to the danger and can kill someone. An AAD that misfires is MORE dangerous than a brick placed into a reserve container. One could kill you, the other just will not save you. Who said I don't have experience with it? I may not have one, but I have seen one misfire (Actually maybe not a misfire), personally know a rigger hat was blamed for doing something wrong that caused a fire by Vigil (and I really DOUBT that he screwed up...If you knew him you would agree), I have a buddy that SAW the DeLand fire (That they still have not explained). So I have plenty of experience with them. I didn't need to have a NOVA collapse on me to know that they will. I don't need to bounce to know it will kill me. I may not have PERSONAL experience with the device...But I have plenty of experience with the device, and devices like it. AAD's I have used: FXC, Sentinal, ASTRA, CYPRES1, CYPRES2. In this sport it is better to be careful than just accept what the makers, sellers, and sponsored people say about a product....You will live longer that way. Hey, I hope the Vigil comes around...But in my opinion they have been less than forthcoming about the problems they have had. They have tried to ignore the issue, blame others, and STILL have not said anything about the in air fire in DeLand. That in my opinion is a bad way to do business. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Was this a change? I thought this was the plan. Last year was a change...Normally it is every other year that the world meet team is selected. The IPC changed the venue so last year was also an "on" year. Last time I checked a World Cup the USPA can approve I think up to 3 teams to represent the US. You don't have to win anything. This might have changed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

According to thes statments by you, you are not dependant: You are NOT device dependant. You clearly just use them for added saftey. Not everyone is like you. I know people who will not jump if their audible is dead. THEY are dependant. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Let me try another tact here: Which is safer?: 1. Going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out, but wearing an AAD. 2. Not going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out without an AAD. And for sake of showing my point: 3. Not going on a dive that has a higher chance of knocking you out AND having an AAD. You see the first step in saftey is not the cool toys...It is making good choices. I and others feel that this part of making a safe jump has become less important as newer folks have grown up under the saftey umbrella of a good AAD. Today it is not uncommon for people to make marginal choices that would not EVER have been made 12 years ago. My opinion, YES. I have seen and heard people say "It's OK, I have an AAD", "Thats why I have an AAD", "My AAD will save me if I fuck up". I also know a girl that has had TWO fires..Yet she told me "I am a safe skydiver." Her reason for thinking she was a safe jumper? "I am a safe skydiver cause I bought an AAD". Now I see that as she is NOT a safe jumper, but I am glad she is alive...But she is NOT safe. Airspeed greatest hits he does several 4 ways without a helmet. The rest of the load was low timers...Ironicly the only guy that could have saved him on that dive....was him. The other three would not have been able to pull it off. This concept always pisses people off. But saftey is making good choices, not adding toys. You don't pack your main like shit just because you have a reserve do you? Why go on dives where you might need an AAD just cause you have one? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Man who pissed in your corn flakes? And here it is in plain english....When I had 600 jumps I too thought I knew it all. I didn't. I am willing to bet you don't either. You are entitled to an opinion...But your opinion means nothing to me. Geeze sorry I asked if you understood my point....How stupid of me to ask if the message I was sending was being recieved in the manner I sent it. They have these pills called Prozac...Might want to be someting to look into. Well, this could be the problem right there...You disagree with me, but you don't bother to READ them. You are the only guy calling people an ASSHOLE...I was trying to get you to understand my point, and YOU started caling me names. Now WHO has the problem here with people who don't agree with them? Who said I am always right? I will say I have 5.5 times the experience you have. Thats 5.5 jumps for every jump you have ever done. I also have a few years on you....I also was jumping BEFORE the CYPRES was popular. So I know BOTH sides of the issue. Hell I have more than your total jumps without one. You are free to have an opinion...But so am I. I am sorry you got all pissy when I asked if you understood my argument. Again check into the Prozac thing.....My opinion is you need it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good question. And my answer is this: If you need an AAD to do a certain dive...Then you are using bad judgment to do that dive with one. So you are willing to increase you risk if you have an AAD? That IS device dependency. And allowing a device like that do increase your risk is foolish. A better choice is not do the dive anyway....You see if you eliminate the chance of getting knocked out, you will not need the AAD to save you. Actualy no...Gerrard jumps without a helmet alot. And I bet the entire 8 way team could jump without a helmet just fine if they wanted to. Tommy. And it was a low timer that hit him... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

An AAD that is off or will not fire will not kill you. It just will not save you. That is a BIG difference. I'd rather not have an AAD than have one that will misfire at altitude. You must have missed the fact that they tried to ignore the peoblem and never answered the question about the DeLand fire. You also must have missed the fact that it took many more fires to admit that they was a problem...And then they said it was not a danger...(Again ignoring the DeLand in air fire.). AFTER several fires they finaly did admit a problem...Too little to late. Hey, if guys like me have no business saying what we think...Feel free to go jump a NOVA till it kills you personally. I think you would be wise listen more than opening your mouth and saying others don't have a clue. I have seen MANY new toys not work as instructed...And a few of those have killed people. But feel free to have the newest toys...If you die from it you will be my next example of why new guys should listen more and speak less. I of course hope you don't die...but atleast you would serve as a good bad example. Have fun.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No reason to be a smart ass. Maybe you don't get it..and thats fine. I just think its stupid to use a device to replace common sense. Many people don't see that as a problem....Of course, I see that as a problem as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You might not read my post completely. My issue is not with people using AAD's as a BACKUP. A device that they turn on and don't think about. My issue is with people who REQUIRE an AAD. Those that don't trust themselves enough and NEED one. These people don't take RESPONSIBILITY for saving themselves. If you have an AAD and go on jumps you would not do without an AAD...Then you are dependent and that is bad....If you would not do the jump without it....Why do that jump at all? If you are dependent on that device...That is bad. If you will do more dangerous things with it than you would not do without it...That is bad. If you have one, but still avoid dangerous jumps...Then thats good. But I have seen many new jumpers that will go do certain skydives only because they have AAD's... Thats bad. If you would not do the jump without an AAD...Don't do it with one. Now do you understand? If you must have an AAD to do that jump....That is a stupid jump, and don't do it. Thats dependency....and thats bad. And if you have an AAD fire and are NOT knocked out....You should quit jumping. You are on borrowed time. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats called training But how many times have you docked on a upside down spinning person? Me in 3300 jumps...once. No ofense, but you have no idea how you will react. Also, it is very easy to go lower than planned while trying to do something. You really think you can tell when you are at 1000 feet while trying to save a buddies life? Thats only 6 seconds from impact...Not much room for error. And yes for two people I can think of I would chase them as far as I could...It is one case where I would hope my CYPRES did work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe you just didn't get them "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Good points...But my main point is that most of the people who say they would try the hero swoop...Have no idea how little the chances are. Or how much added risk they create. I have had people get knocked senseless and start to tumble. Once of course myself and another guy went after one.....The guy we were chaseing came to...And deployed....We both almost hit him. He pulled at like 6 grand. He came to and he pulled...He didn't even flip back over, just tossed. Very scary. All I want these guys to do is if they think they are willing to risk going after someone...Then it is clearly worth training for it right? It will either give them the idea that it is a bad idea, or it will give them some training. Either solution is fine. Bravery is good....Being smart is better. You will still not be able to sleep. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

CYPRES1 does not say it is "water resistant"....So that is a valid answer. Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. Yeah, but they did something about it....Funny though. They replaced the unit...I also bet that they did look at it. Both 3 and 4 are problems with individual units...Not a great sign. But not an indicator of a larger problem. Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. If nothing I am fair. Which ones? 1. Should not get a non water proof unit wet...I know 12 year olds that understand that water messes with electric stuff 2. Not having the control unit read out work is not good. But it would not missfire and kill someone. 3. Again, not good, but it was one unit...(I still find it kinda funny....I might have kept it and had people tunr my unit on and see if they notice.) And we don't know if it would not work...But it might not have fired either...So it would not be fatal. 4. A unit that will not turn on will not kill you. 5. I can't think of a single in air fire due to static...I do remember several ground fires...But then again Airtec scrambled to fix it as soon as it was seen...Vigil did not. That is my issue with Vigil vs Airtec. Airtec was pretty quick to see a problem and fix it. (I thought the "silver sleeve" was pretty gay, but it seemed to have worked). Vigil seems to have tried to hide its problems. They would not be the first company to try and hide a defect...But in this small sport it does not work well. True...I can name a bunch of failed AAD's if ya like. But the true test of any skydiving product is time. Vigil in my opinion is not a wise purchase yet. If it were the only modern AAD out there. I would say it *might* be worth the risk...But the CYPRES2 has a good lead with the original CYPRES. That being said...I didn't run out and buy a CYPRES until 1994 three years after I had been jumping. And I am just now thinking a CYPRES2 is OK. I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history. I do hope they get better. I do hope they are proven to be safe. I like competition. But I hate unproven, possibly unsafe products more....time and only time will tell if the Vigil is safe. Until then I choose not to be a test jumper. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True. I just don't want people to think they can do it, or plan on doing it without TRAINING for it. Those things we don't train we can't do. I would only ask the folks that think they will do this to try these exercises that have been written about. That way they know if they actually have a chance, or are just risking their lives for nothing. Three things: 1. No drouge, no main. 2. You are there to give them the ride of their life...They are there to try and kill you. 3. You are willing to risk your life for their entertainment....Mikey Mouse will not do that for them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, I do think that most of these people saying they would try it will try it if they get the chance. You don't have time to think that much in this sport...So the choices you make now while sitting on the ground are the ones you will do in that situation. Yep, I also make no bones about the fact I am willing to die trying to save them. I don't pretend that I will be so skilled as to be able to catch them, deploy them, and save my own life before we hit. That is the big difference. You have folks on here saying they will chase anyone. Noble, but foolish. You also have guys on here with 100 jumps saying they will do it...Again Noble, but foolish. You have guys that never trained this type of situation, but have seen it in movies and plan to try it live when the costs are life and death. Noble, but foolish. And thats your right....But I don't want people who don't have enough experience to know its not a good idea to think its a good idea. Yes, there are two people I would chase till impact...But I also KNOW that I most likley will fail and will die. I don't pretend that I will be able to be a hero. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Stories just like this both told word of mouth and on boards. Did you see me claim its true? However since I have read about the UFO I have paid more attention to stories about them...Just as since I have heard bad stories about TE that I pay attention when they are told by others.... You see if one guy says something I tend to not give it much credit...Now if 5-10-20 people say the same thing...Well it starts getting credible. Then maybe you should be careful about who your team jokes with about what? I have NEVER heard a PD rep say anything bad about another product or even joke about someone elses choices. You have the choice to try and control the image of your team....It seems that maybe you need to control it better and not let your team, or the "Groupies" run around slamming others or other products even in jest. You see what happens when they do. Well your team built the reputation it has, not me. Maybe you need to own up to the fact that some of the things you have done have brought about that bad reputation and work to change it? Consider this thread a wakeup call to do better. But attacking people for their opinions is a bad way to promote a positve image. Particularly in this case where the reputation is that your guys attack others for not jumping your sponsors products. Just a thought...You of course are free to do as you please. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I hope they don't slam into the guy as he or his aad deploys him...Killing one or both of them. We had an AFF RATED "I" get killed here in FL. when a student was pulled out by the other JM....A freefall collision sucks. We had another guy in FL lose a leg due to a freefall collision. What many of these folks are not looking at (Other than how really hard it is to pull off this kinda stuff) is that you can make the problem worse. Plus I doubt many of these "I'd go get him till 1,000 feet have even even BEEN in freefall at 1200 feet before. Plus they are forgetting that you lose track of time when you are really trying to do something... The ground does not care how much of a good, nice thing you were trying to do. Add all this together, and going after someone below 2 grand is a bad idea that even most professionals would not try for a damn good reason. I would ask any of the "I'd go get him below 2 grand" crowd to try the exercises that have been suggested. And for a little flavor....Go do a low pull (1,600-1,800ish) and see how fast the ground comes. Once you have really seen how fast the ground comes...You will not want to do it again. BTW....all of those that have said they would go after someone....Whats your normal pull altitude, and whats the lowest you have pulled? Me? Well I'd only go after 2 people that I can think of....And dying trying to save them would be worth it for me. But I normally pull around 2,500...And have taken it SUB 1,000 feet 3 times(I had 300ish jumps and "knew" everything), and around 300 jumps pulling at 1500 feet...(Again, I had

As of last weekend they were closed. The staff came to Zhills with their students. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its called a joke. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe they should be more professional? And I don't see him "Bashing" them infront of their sponsors. Now I don't know any of the team members, never delt with them at all...But I HAVE heard they are unprofessional. What does that say for them when they have a bad reputation with people they have never met? He was only joking about slamming another persons canopy since it was from another company? That sounds like being unprofessional to me. Your own post is doing nothing but increaesing the negative opinions of that team. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your opinion only. Mine is different. Dependency on a device to save you is bad. Training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set...is good. Training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set and adding a saftey device is better. But replacing training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set for an AAD is stupid, and it does happen. This we agree on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you can demo it...Do it. It would be foolish to just buy something without trying it out. Would you buy a new car without a test drive? Would you get married without sleeping with her first? Test jump EVERYTHING "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know you didn't ask this, but the dives are generated by putting all of the numbers and letters into a hat. You start pulling them out till you get 4 or 5 points for Intermediate, 5-6 points for Advanced/Open (You have to end on a Block/number to get the 5th or 6th point.) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334