sinker

you're such a pessimist. -the artist formerly known as sinker

holy hell this thread was good for a laugh! my wife's gma's name is agnes. what a lamb. -the artist formerly known as sinker

>Mine was an example as well, you ignored the >second paragraph, the one about the increased >waste and fossil fuel consumption that an increase >in population would bring. It wasn't ignored, it just wasn't addressed in the interest of time. Remember, I have 4 kids and I happen to enjoy spending time w/ them over debating here... I see the fossil fuel consumption issue as another scare tactic. We really don't know how much fossil fuel is left in the earth. Also, what about alternative energy sources? We've yet to really tap those. And as alternative energy sources are utilized, waste is altered as well. As for human waste, don't know... As for parent time, as "good parents" go, do you know how much time a "good parent" does or should spend w/ a child to ensure good social/psychological adjustment? My wife's mom is one of 12... All 12 turned out very well, no addictions, no divorces, no mental problems, all close to their parents, to their children, etc.... How much time did my wife's g-pa spend w/ each kid? Don't know... but it was obviously "enough." Funny how back when I was a therapist, I rarely if ever saw poorly adjusted people who came from large families, but many many many who came from smaller families (not that small families CAUSE psychological problems mind you, that's not quite what I'm saying). -the artist formerly known as sinker

my glasses aren't rose colored... yours are colored w/ fear... If you can't afford to have kids, don't have them. This family can. I can as well. (And we won't be feeding them w/ deisel either). -the artist formerly known as sinker

a cow is not more alive than an embryo (whether at the blastocyst stage or any other) based only on the fact that it can live ex-utero. something is either alive or it is not. there is no grey here. alive or not alive. those are the only two options. and your toe is more important than a embryo? that truly made me laugh, and I don't mean to sound mocking about it... it was just funny, and sad. that is why our society is in the state it is today, b/c human life is devalued the way it is... an embryo is not a potential human, it is a human being with potential. the only thing added is growth and nutrition. you say that our belief that an embryo is alive is a moral one and not scientific... that assumption on your part is somewhat unwarranted... I've studied human embryology in college and, to be blunt, could not find a logical break anywhere in the gestational process whereby one could say "ok, now it's a baby," either by way of saying the child is viable or what have you, like the supreme court did in roe. as embryological medical care has advanced, the "age" of viability has decreased, it has not stayed static. what does that tell you? and what makes a baby a baby? the fact that it can live on it's own ex-utero? when it has a heart beat? when it can feel pain? when it has cognition? the fact is, there IS no logical demarcation... there IS no point at which one can state "now it's a child," except to start at the beginning... that's the only proper thing to do... the first rule of medicine is "do no harm." Just b/c you THINK you're not doing any harm to a "bunch of cells" doesn't really mean shit... you may be wrong. One should err on the side of prudence, on the side of caution and not assume one knows more than one does, nor should one dismiss the beliefs of others b/c they SEEM to be only based on "morality" and not "science." There are many OB/GYNs who also believe that life begins at conception, both religious and atheists alike. I realize that I'm probably wasting my breath here... we've had this debate countless times before... just know that as the medical community continues to grapple w/ the areas of fertility, birth defects, fixing fetal problems inutero, etc., we will see more and more "science" meeting "religion" where it has been all along... it in fact is already happening... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Would you allow every single person in the world to fit in the state of texas and have over 1200 square feet each? I doubt it (minuteman project). It is not ONLY about resources or physical space, It is important as well how much waste the population produce that is not easily recicled, the increased consuption of fossil fuels, politics, economy, etc etc etc. In other order of things i wonder how much quality time do each of those kids get with their parents compared with thir assigned "buddy". I'm surprised that it took so long for someone to object to that example I made... and it was just that, an example, to illustrate just how LARGE the earth is... of course I am not advocating cramming everyone into such a "small" space... don't be so concrete in thinking... as to your other point, I'd venture to say that the amount of "quality" time that these kids get is probably more than what most double-income parents give their kids, who anesthetize their kids w/ TV, video games, DVDs, etc... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Not if all parents decided to have sixteen kids. From a microperspective, an individual pair of parents having sixteen+/- kids is a personal choice. From a macroperspective, if all parents chose to have sixteen+/- kids, it would cause a population explosion in short order. oh come on now... do you REALLY think that all parents are going to decide to have 16 kids? Most parents barely have 2 kids... isn't the average # of kids a couple has like 1.2 or something? pah! -the artist formerly known as sinker

yeah, actually I meant to delete that part, since it wasn't germain to the thread here... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Just saw this... thought it was interesting and a little relevant to our discussion here... Question 1: If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion? Read the next question before looking at the response for this one. Question 2: It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three candidates. Candidate A -- Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day. Candidate B -- He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college, and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening. Candidate C -- He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife. Which of these candidates would be your choice? Decide first ... no peeking, then scroll down for the response. Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt. Candidate B is Winston Churchill. Candidate C is Adolph Hitler And, by the way, on your answer to the abortion question: If you said, "YES!" you just killed Beethoven. Pretty interesting isn't it? Makes a person think before judging someone. Wait till you see the end of this note! Keep reading ... Never be afraid to try something new ... Remember ... Amateurs built the ark ... Professionals...built the Titanic! And Finally can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics: 29 have been accused of spousal abuse 7 have been arrested for fraud 19 have been accused of writing bad checks 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses 3 have done time for assault 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges 8 have been arrested for shoplifting 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year... Can you guess which organization this is? Give up yet? It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Overall, the world population is growing, although the rate at which it is growing is in fact declining (my mistake). Nonetheless, sustained growth cannot be maintained forever. There is a finite amount of space. I think we have different ideas of long term. I consider anything within my lifetime to be relatively short term, at least in the context of population. I would agree w/ just about everything you said in this last post... finite space, our lifetimes = short term, etc. I personally look forward to the creative ideas that others come up w/ vis a vis food creation and distribution, shelter, etc... another disturbing issue in all of this is natural and man-made disasters... the tsunami from last year killed hundreds of thousands. so many of other disasters and wars take such a toll, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next century or two we saw a decrease in the worlds population... -the artist formerly known as sinker

I had to double check this for myself. 1160 sq ft. or so actually. The thing is, the Earth's population is expanding by close to 100,000,000 people per year. When you consider how quickly the rate of population growth is increasing, it will not be as long as you think before the Earth would be overpopulated. Did you know that 10% of all the people that have ever lived are alive today? (source: About Time by Paul Davies) at a rate of 100 mil a year, it will take a while to fill the entire US... the world is bigger than you think.. then you have the vastness of canada... how 'bout this... develop an algorithm to determine when, at our current growth rate, the entire habitable parts of the earth will be filled. But be honest, true growth rate has to be considered. in many parts of the world, there ISN'T a growth rate, there is a decline... people are dying faster than people are being born... and in other countries, there is a stangnant growth rate... people are barely replacing themselves... c'mon... scare tactics do nothing but scare... we would do well to do more to end the injustices of unfair distribution of wealth, lack of adequate housing, elimination of poverty, providing quality healthcare, etc., to the densely populated areas of the world... as well as to teach them better technologies in agriculture, energy use, etc. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I guess it all boils down to what a person considers quality of life. I value nature and the outdoors. I love to hunt and fish with my family. I wonder how long a person will even be able to enjoy these pursuits. *** did you know that every single person in the world could fit in the state of texas and have over 1200 square feet EACH... hmmm... think you'd still have enough room in the world to go hunt and fish w/ your family? we haven't even begun to tap the world's resources... the world only looks overpopulated b/c of incredible density in certain areas like parts of india, china, nyc, etc. ever fly across the US? most of the country is UNpopulated and is completely habitable. People need to quick looking at the world w/ such a scarcity mentality. As someone earlier very wisely pointed out, humans have the capacity (unlike just about every other animal) of producing more than they consume as well as using their creativity and intellect to solve problems and come up w/ novel solutions. We will not see our beloved earth destroyed or filled to capacity anytime soon... ever in fact... anyone who believes otherwise has swallowed a lie... -the artist formerly known as sinker

I was certainly striving for something. Didn't know exactly what it was, though. Thanks! I still think the Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia comparison is the best we've got. yeah, I think you're right... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Partially correct... the Catholic Church does not deny that one can enounter Christ directly, personally, outside of the Church itself. It teaches that His Grace is still present. However, Christ cannot be experienced in the same way or to the same degree as He can in the sacraments of the church... perhaps that is what you were striving towards.

man that was hilarious! poor little pussy. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I would like to take a moment to point out that GIs were so loath to be anywhere near Klinton during his staged photo-ops that they had to be threatened with disciplinary action. mh . i loved the pic of the soldier shaking hands w/ heil-hillary while crossing his fingers w/ a shit-eating grin on his face... priceless... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Why are people starving in Africa? It's not due to lack of resources per se as much as it is due to the unfair distribution of wealth. We produce enough food in this country to feed the entire world. And most of this country too, might I remind you, is unpopulated. Furthermore, we haven't even begun to tap the earths resources re: energy, food (hello, ocean?), etc. And don't even talk to me about how much of the earth is uninhabitable.... look at the desert of the southwest, largely habitable now due to the hoover dam and the sacrifices made in the great depression to make that modern miracle of engineering and architecture to help make a desert (a DESERT!) not only liveable, but a thriving part of the country. The world is not over populated... far from it... that's much more of a myth than you believe "God" to be... -the artist formerly known as sinker

Any chance you still have the outfit? lol! -the artist formerly known as sinker

bill, the aclu has gone more and more off the deep end in the last years... if anyone is guilty of sliding down the slippery slope, it's them... they're doing less and less good for society, and more and more harm, w/ each passing year. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Those wascally wepublicans... so unspontaneous, not like those democrats, so forthright, honest and and and, UNscripted... yeah... I don't see what the big deal is... doesn't just about every politician stack the deck like this when it comes to such events? -the artist formerly known as sinker

Uhh, thats the whole point, see at the top where he says 'applying the same logic'? but he's not applying the same logic... the aclu actually supports some of that shit... -the artist formerly known as sinker

uh, pull my finger! yeah, yeah! -the artist formerly known as sinker

*** Wow... no spin there, eh bill? sheesh... -the artist formerly known as sinker

great balls of fire... poor thing looks like a burn victim from hell... send it back... -the artist formerly known as sinker

hmmm... what an interesting thread... I can honestly say that some posts here really surprised me... in a good way. I expected MORE bashing of people who excerised their freedom of "choice" to have a large family. And believe me, w/ these types of families, it's a choice, as is powerfully evident in this family. It isn't just haphazard, lack-of-self-control, don't-you-know-what-causes-pregnancy-yet? ignorance, as many "enlightened "pro-choicers" and no-kidders believe. Good on all you who had kind remarks and praise for this family and the path they have chosen. But shame on those of you who have been insensitive and mocking! As many of you know my lovely wife and I have four great kids, and plan on having more. Still, in the grocery store, with only 4, we get stares, comments like, "gosh, are they all YOURS?" "can't you give your wife a break mister?" "you live in a trailer don'tcha!" "thanks for overpopulating the world!" and similar insensitivities. So many people in our society have very little respect for children and parents. I see it when I travel for work all the time... moms boarding planes w/ kids... "oh shit... don't let that mom and her f*cking brats sit here..." People opposed to abortion often have more kids than those who are for abortion. Not always, but often. Notice that I didn't use the words "pro-life" and "pro-choice." There are those in the pro-abortion audience that are so quick to use the "choice" word to defend their stance, yet are so incredibly derisive and judgemental when "pro-lifers" exercise that same "choice" to HAVE children... as if the more superior, logical, compassionate, realistic, humane, (insert adjective here) "choice" is to a) either not have kids, b) abort the kid or c) have a very limited number of kids... to have more than 1 or 2 is looked at w/ such disdain... it just makes me sick. I know, some can't have kids, some can only have 1 or 2 for whatever reason... I'm not criticising that here at all... I have people all the time, including a former boss, making jokes about when I'm planning on getting a vasectomy. Um, hello? How about my choice to NOT get one? "Oh... that's just b/c you belong to a religion that espouses antiquated beliefs on procreative sex... you need to graduate into the 21st century..." uh huh... I've 4 years of graduate education, make a large salary, don't live in a trailor, am not on welfare, spend oodles of time w/ my kids, as does my wife, a former teacher who home-schools the kids, and we're doing just fine, thanks. And we'll continue to "be fruitful and multiply." There is no greater joy in life than to a) make babies, b) witness their birth c) watch them grow d) educate them e) be loved by them and love them in return.... nothing, NOTHING compares... One last thing... for God's sake, lay off the chic's hair, alright? How f*cking shallow can you get... sheesh... -the artist formerly known as sinker