sinker

Luna, sorry if I incorrectly lumped you and Rhino "in bed together" over this issue. About depression being de riguer... you're totally right. But ya know, it's not the worst thing that could happen. It's not the best either, but a lot of people have gotten help that they otherwise might not have received. Maybe someday our society will get to a point where phobias are more accepted as well. Me personally, they don't freak me out, embarass me, nothing like that. Of course, having worked in the field, that's understandable. We all have our irrational fears, so try not to feel too isolated and alone... 'cause you're NOT alone... -the artist formerly known as sinker

very good point. but a number of questions come up... did the doctor talk to woman about treating her depression? did she ask about suicidal thoughts? did she refer her to a psychiatrist? if the doc gave samples of an antidepressent, would the patient have taken them? -the artist formerly known as sinker

thx for fixing the link... a FASCINATING article! And it just confirms alot of past research about seratonin regulation. now an interesting twist would be to test those persons with both long versions of the 5-HTT gene who DID get depressed with different treatments: one group on meds, one off, one in combination. I have a sneaking suspicion we'd see that, since the seratonin regulation in the long gene group is more effective, they would be better suited to non-medication interventions. However, they probably wouldn't respond as quickly as the medication group or the combo group. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Actually, it isn't an either/or question. It can go both ways. You can have stressors that alter the chemistry. You can have altered chemistry FIRST w/o stressors to trigger the depression. Or you can have both... altered chemistry AND stressors that would make ANYONE depressed. Given my response to your first question, this quote by you above is a moot point. It is not of paramount importance, at least initially, to know the etiology of depression, the cause of depression. Don't get me wrong, it IS important. Just not the MOST important thing. Whether your depression came from stressors which altered your brain chemistry or if your brain chemistry was first out of wack doesn't change the fact that antidepressents can help put them back to the levels that they need to be. Another thing... just b/c pharmaceutical companies fund the research on these drugs does not make there findings suspect or spurious. WHO ELSE should fund the research for crying out loud??? Taxpayers? The pharmaceutical industry has a tainted image these days due to some big mistakes made in the name of research. HOWEVER, clinical trials are far more objective and unbiased than the average consumer whose only exposure is the evening news. That in a nutshell is my job... making sure that clinical trials are ethical, balanced, unbiased, not influenced by money or politics. And I think we do a DAMN good job at it... only 1 drug compound out of thousands ever makes it to market BECAUSE of the work we do to make sure that the drugs are safe and effective. A final point... I don't recall ANYONE on these depression threads arguing that medication is the only way and that the position you and Rhino take is bullshit. What most of us are saying is that the things YOU propose may work for some, not for others. Catagorical, blanket statements are not only imprudent, they are DANGEROUS. Depression kills many many people. Bad advice can too. As I've said ad nauseum, the BEST approach for lasting, long term remission of depression is medication and talk therapy. Often, medication can be discontinued after a period of time. Sometimes it can't. While alot of people are too quick to reach for a pill in our current society, there is no denying that modern antidepressants have been a huge benefit for our society. -the artist formerly known as sinker

couldn't get your clicky to work... wanna try again? sounds very interesting... -the artist formerly known as sinker

quikest remedy ISN'T always the problem. Often yes, but not always. For some depressed persons, they don't HAVE a lot of time before they hang themselves, blow their heads off, overdose, slit their wrists, you get the picture. The idea there is, get in, relieve the severe mood, even just a little, and open up a therapeutic window so that the root causes and other non-medication fixes can be applied. -the artist formerly known as sinker

I'm so glad you brought this up!! I used to run clinical trials for schizophrenics under a Vanderbilt University Medical Center psychiatrist named Herbert Meltzer, MD. He's highly published and very well respected in the schizophrenia community (even though he is an asshat of a personality). He knows John Nash personally. Very personally. Mr. Nash is the character in A Beautiful Mind. Dr. Meltzer knew Mr. Nash before he won the Nobel Prize for economics and has kept up the relationship ever since. I was actually in Dr. Meltzer's office having a meeting once when Mr. Nash called him! At the time, the movie hadn't come out and I had no idea who the man was. Anyhow, about a year after the movie came out, Mr. Nash came to Vanderbilt, on Dr. Meltzer's request, to speak. His son came too. His son is also a paranoid schizophrenic and chose to not take his meds while in Nashville (where Vanderbilt is located). The son disappeared in the city and the police and the emergency psychiatric intervention team, also where I used to work, had to go find him. The movie is not completely accurate. While I don't know if Mr. Nash currently takes any medication, he did not completely shun them as the movie would like to suggest. Love can certainly move mountains, and Mr. Nash's ex-wife certainly did alot to help him, but newer medications also helped him as well. If you remember from the movie, at the end when he is teaching at Princeton, he was STILL symptomatic! He was still hallucinating... he just learned exceptional coping skills that helped him deal better with it also. Even better yet would be if he didn't have any psychosis at all... -the artist formerly known as sinker

ah... the million dollar question... some situations one may encounter in life, esp. traumatic ones that were recurrent, can alter the catacholamines (the three neurotransmitters Michele mentioned below, seratonin, norepinepherine and dopamine) in such a way that one gets depressed. It would stand to reason then, wouldn't it, that DIFFERENT life situations (i.e. working out, smiling at your funny face in the mirror) CAN change the neurochemistry of the brain in such a way as to return it to a normal state. Yes, that is true. Such life situations CAN do this. HOWEVER>>> often times, the change in chemistry is such that the depression sufferer CANNOT do those things that may (or may not) return the brain to a non-depressed state. People w/ severe depressions often CANNOT "force themselves" to do things. In such circumstances, taking an SSRI (Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft) will help keep MORE seratonin where it should be to so as to lift the depression enough to where the sufferer can do those things like exercise, smile more, eat better, develop spiritually, etc. There are also those that get depressed for NO REASON AT ALL... there is a genetic predisposition in some people to depression. Sorry, you've just been dealth w/ bad cards, dude. Just the way it is. In such cases, we're talking STRICTLY about a neurochemical imbalance. And again, the best and quickest remedy is... you guessed it... medication. Like the diabetic taking insulin. And you know what? If you take that person off the antidepressants, they very well may go right back to their pre-med state: depression. their brains may not EVER have the ability to naturally regulate the catacholamines, no matter how many non-med strategies they employ. These people exist. Trust me. -the artist formerly known as sinker

thanks for re-asking this question. how incredibly frightening it would be for the schizophrenic as well as for the rest of society if they stopped their zyprexa or their risperdol or their haldol. how incredibly cruel it would be for us to say to them, instead of smiling in the mirror to cure your sadness, just look yourself in the mirror and say "I AM NOT JESUS!" "ALIENS ARE NOT SENDING ME MESSAGES THROUGH THE TV!" In Rhino's defense, some depression CAN be altered, changed, even remitted through methods other than through medication. After all, the mind is an incredibly strong thing. However, we really need to be able to distinguish WHEN meds are the right thing to take and WHEN they are not. -the artist formerly known as sinker

What you say is only partially true. Yes, different people experience depression in different ways. HOWEVER, among the thousands and thousands of people who have suffered from depression, doctors and researchers have delineated a cluster of signs and symptoms, including temporal relationships and severity of symptoms, that constitutes the mental illness of depression. What we're talking about here is the medical construct of depression. Depression as a disease, not "feelings" that come on someone as a result of "real life." There is NO disagreement on the symptoms that make up clinical depression. They are experienced to different degrees/severities and one person may not have some of the symptoms that another has, but universally the symptoms of true depression are just that... universal. EVERYONE gets "depressed" and "sad". Like you say, Rhino, it's part of life. And everyone experiences it and responds to it differently. But THAT is NOT depression! Not knowing you in person, I can't deny you haven't been seriously, clinically depressed. HOWEVER, you stating that you understand it as well as anyone on here is quite a cocky statement. I have been in the darkest of depressions, esp. since my wife's diagnosis. However, I've talked to others here who have clearly gone deeper and darker than I have. I cannot even PRETEND to understand it on their level. I'd venture to say that if you HAD such experience/understanding, your opinions and attitudes about this topic might be different. -the artist formerly known as sinker

and we ALL know how wise and courageous YOU are, don't we?? -the artist formerly known as sinker

FFS, I WAS being serious!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

they'd have to transplant TWO tongues for your man, Sue-she, to handle those babies w/ back on your avatar! -the artist formerly known as sinker

nonclinical depression.... well, there really isn't such a thing... there are adjustment disorders, where life-stressors occur and the person has difficulty adjusting to them, often by "gettin the blues." This is usually considered a reaction to stressors that is just outside the realm of normal. there is dysthymia, which is considered a "minor" depression, one which could have been caused by a life stressor but is lasting for a LONGER period of time than what would "normally" occur in an adjustment d/o. then there are various stages of actual depression, ranging for single episode, mild moderate and severe, to recurrent depressions, mild moderate and severe, and then severe depression with or without psychotic features (yes, some people who are very depressed have hallucinations and/or delusions). -the artist formerly known as sinker

congrat rev!!!! keep up the good work!!!! -the artist formerly known as sinker

sunny one, I want to shout from the rooftops about our sleezy but fulfilling relationship... I just cant help it. -the artist formerly known as sinker

where are you jumping? esp. if you live in shreveport (or are you just FROM there, and livin elsewhere?) -the artist formerly known as sinker

actually, I'm very cheerful! I have a new baby and I've recently made some deep and fulfilling friendships on dz.com. -the artist formerly known as sinker

This post is for anyone who may be depressed and who may have become confused in the (now locked) thread that was started earlier. Before anyone takes the advice of someone posting from dz.com, whether it be me, Rhino, Michele, anyone, if your depression is serious enough that you have a hard time getting out of bed, have difficulty working, have lost the ability to experience pleasure in activities you used to gain pleasure from, or have had ANY suicidal thoughts, even if you would NEVER act on them, PLEASE see a licensed, competent, reputable psychiatrist or therapist. If you can't afford one or your insurance doesn't pay for one, PM me. I may be able to help with options unknown to you. Edited to add: and be careful/wary of professionals whose ONLY recourse is to push meds. Notice I said ONLY... -the artist formerly known as sinker

and that's a bad thing WHY???? People SHOULD be trepedatious about getting off of meds. And they should do so ONLY under the care of a competent psychiatrist/therapist (yes, they do exist, inspite of what you think ). Getting off of even "mild" antidepressents such as Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, is a very difficult process given the withdrawal syndrome that accompanies them. And, the possibility for a re-bound depression that is WORSE THAN BEFORE is quite distinct. Rhino, let me be as clear as I can be... I am ALL FOR people trying natural methods of treating their depressions. It is FAVORABLE for someone to be able to do so w/o resorting to medications. HOWEVER, such an approach is often not practical nor prudent and such a decision must be made in consultation w/ a competent psychiatrist/therapist. I got severely depressed after my lovely wife was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. Prior to this, I had been able to deal with bouts of depression fairly successfully through talk therapy and other techniques I'd learned. However, when she became ill, we had two young kids in diapers, she could no longer work, dress herself, or brush her teeth. I had to work 7 days a week to make ends meet. And my brain and body shut down and I became very depressed. I got on meds, which was a VERY difficult decision to make (after all, I was the therapist! I could do this myself dammit!). But you know, I couldn't do it myself. I needed the floor put back under me and drugs did that. That was 4 years ago. Since then I have been off of the meds twice for several months each time. However, each time, my ability to function with a handicapped wife, young children, and as the only bread winner in the house began to deteriorate. If it werent' for Zoloft, I would not be able to successfully fulfill my duties as a husband, father, and worker. -the artist formerly known as sinker

again, prove it. where are you getting your figures? and how in God's name would you know these people are taking the easy way out? Are SOME of them? Undoubtedly. Are 90% of them? Probably not. Do some of them not have the mental strength and stamina to do anything BUT take a pill? Of course... and for them to NOT take a pill would be incredibly stupid. You're the one who is making outlandish claims, so you should be the one to back up your argument. Not me. I'm IN THE FIELD, Rhino, I work w/ this stuff day in and day out. And my opinions ARE NOT typical of the "hand out antidep." society. You're making an unwarranted conclusion based on limited facts. I have already said TWICE here that I think antideps. are OVERPRESCRIBED. Doctors are far too quick to hand out Prozac instead of really looking at what the root cause of depression is and THEN making an appropriate treatment recommendation. There are many reasons for this including doctor's laziness, third-party reimbursement constraints, etc. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Good for you. However, it's incredibly near-sided to think this analogy works for people who suffer from clinical depression (we're not talkin about the blues or a set of symptoms brought on by life stressors). You may not want to see it that way, but ya know, I want OTHERS reading this thread to know that if you try the Rhino-School-of-Psychotherapy and it does't work, you're not alone and you're not a failure. -the artist formerly known as sinker

Like I said.. don't criticize it until you try it.. But each of us has the ability to control how our mind reacts to every situation. Your mind is something you actually have TOTAL control of. People on Prozac put a bullet in their mouths JUST as much as those that don't take it. Instead of using change as an excuse not to take action to better themselves. *** Puhleeze!!!! while this may be true for some, to make that statement catagorically is neither intellectually honest nor compassionate. Instead, people who advocate your type of "therapy" are sometimes doing more to victimize people w/ depression. -the artist formerly known as sinker

pretty balsy of you after the women's forum posts awhile back. dude, with all due respect, I'm glad this stuff has worked for you and others. but you need to know that some people may read this and think that b/c such "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" measures don't work for them, that thye are failures and may sink deeper into their depression. I think that creating a thread like this is irresponsible given the serious nature of depression as an illness. as a pharmaceutical researcher and former psychotherapist, I can tell you from mounds of professional (and personal) experience that what you're proposing is far from a panacea and for some can be detrimental. i know you are against taking medications for depression and such. but it is VERY important for people to realize that depression is not a homogeneous illness. it's etiology isn't just situational. Given that, there are different methods of treatment that help different people. true, antidepressants are over-prescribed. a gynecologist has no business handing out prozac samples imho. however, this drug and the others in this class of antidepressants have SAVED LIVES. so, before this thread turns into a shouting match about what depression is and how to best treat it, people should remember that the best approach to it's treatment is through a thorough assessment of the person by a qualified psychiatrist/psychologist, not the application of "pop psychology." The best way to attack a serious depression, which has been cited over and over in the medical literature is through a combination of medication and therapy. Therapy alone is helpful, but often times takes a lot longer and is unecessarily tougher w/o first taking an antidepressant to "put the floor back under you," to quote one of my dearest dz.com friends... -the artist formerly known as sinker

PHAAAAHHH!!! That's hilarious! -the artist formerly known as sinker