rigging65

Most likely just the base of the res. p/c has shifted slightly to one side. That combined with the compression of the reserve canopy over time makes it more obvious that it's not quite centered. It should be no big deal to get it reclosed. Incidentally, the flaps compressing the reserve is a major reason why it sometimes appears that a pop-top is floating up on a packjob after a week or so. It's not that the p/c has moved, it's that the pack job has shrunk under the flaps giving it that appearance. Kind of cool pop-top trivia! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

You're totally correct. I jumped a throw-out for several hundred jumps, until someone explained the pullout to me. I asked around, got information (both pro and con) and made my own decision. I trained with it on the ground under the supervision of our DZO (a PUD jumper) and then went and jumped it. I've never looked back. I'm an advocate of the system and I let people know that. BUT I always tell them to go find a few specific people (whom I name for them) who are ardently against pullouts and have them ask those people why they don't like them. I've yet to have anyone serious in the transition be swayed by what they hear from these people. Mostly because their statements consist of the same old arguments: "Those things used to be Black Death" "You might have a floating PUD" "Horseshoes don't happen all that often, so why worry about it?" yadda yadda yadda. I posted a thread entitled "Why do you hate pullouts" and have been very careful not to reply to some of the reasons that have been posted there. I wanted to see if anyone could give me a reason that I felt had merit as to why not to jump a pullout. This was a totally selfish motivation, and I'm sure that many folks out there have seen the post and agree with what was posted there. I don't. IMO, the only reason even close to having a rational backing that has been given as to why not to jump a pullout is that you can't check you're kill-line p/c once the rig is packed. You actually can, you just have to leave the window portion of the bridle out for inspection, but no one does... Because I've always jumped a throw out and so does everyone else, is not, IMO a valid reason not to like the pullout system. It's a reason not to jump one, but not a reason not to like it. Get training, understand your system, go jump. It's that easy. If you don't like a piece of equipment, at least go out and ask questions from both sides of the argument so you've got the info. Don't just be a lemming, be an informed lemming! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That's right, I've never seen a Wings Cordura BOC. Over the years I've seen several different cordura BOCs, but our DZ has VERY VERY few Wings on it (like one, maybe two), so we don't see many in the loft. Add to it that BAS (about an hour from here) is a heavily-Wings DZ, and they have their own loft and riggers, so most of the Wings stay down there, and we don't see them. I've seen (and built) Reflex cordura BOC systems before and they work well. In fact, I think it's a great overall concept using cordura for a BOC, but no, I've never seen a separate Wings designed Cordura BOC. Why is this hard to believe? It's a relatively new container that's not popular here. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I have a loop sewn into the base of my p/c. Then I have a PUD/lanyard/pin assembly with a grommet tab hanging off it (imagine a regular PUD assembly, then just sever the grommet tab loose from the p/c base). The end of the grommet tab is also a web loop, so I can larkshead it to the p/c base and make a pullout. At the apex of the p/c I have a soft, flat PUD handle sewn in place of a hackey. Since it's soft and flat, I can pack it right into the container without any real bulk. And away you go...

The only way I could ever see this happening is if your loop was too loose. Pins don't just "slip" out of properly tightened loops. I guess if you placed pressure just right you might be able to get the loop to loosen a bit, and I suppose that a straight pin would be more likely to "slip" out than a curved pin given perfect (imperfect?) conditions, but the whole scenario is way out of left field, IMO. To add to this, a pullout's straight pin is attached to the PUD by a lanyard, so that's going to help support the "weight" of the pin and add friction to keep it in place. Again, I don't think this scenario is very likely, I've never heard of it, but I don't think you can ever truly rule anything out as a possibility. I guess my short answer opinion to this is, in everyday life, I don't think a straight pin is going to slip out any sooner than a curved pin. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Let's keep on topic here: Why don't you like the pullout system? Is it only because of wingsuit jumps? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

A PUD is a soft, usually flat handle that lives where your hackey handle would, it's usually velcroed in place under a protector flap of some sort (such that it's not just velcro holding it in place, but flap pressure as well). The PUD attaches to a short lanyard, that has a straight pin on the other end. This pin holds the container closed. On the base of the pilot chute, where the bridle ties in, is a little webbing tab with a grommet through it. The PUD lanyard runs through that grommet. Your main p/c is packed inside the container, simply placed on top of your D-bag then the flaps are closed over it, holding it in place. When you pull the PUD (no pun intended), it unlocks the container. As you continue pulling, the lanyard slides through the grommet until the pin runs into the grommet, at which time your continued pull extracts the pilotchute into the air. Pros: 1) Pilot chute cannot get loose until the container is unlocked, so it's pretty tough to get a p/c in tow. 2) Also reduces horshoes, for the same reason. (since p/c in tow and horsehoe are the two most scary mals I can think of, and this system reduces the odds of having them, I jump this system). 3) If you drop the PUD and can't find it with a hand sweep or two, you only have the 8 or so inches of lanyard and PUD over your back for your reserve to clear past. Cons: 1) If you are very sloppy when you rig the lanyard when you pack, and allow the grommet tab to twist around, it's possible to create a basically impossible pull. 2) Not everyone uses them, so many people are ignorant of how they work...we fear what we don't know. 3) There is some minor maintenance on the PUD Velcro, about every 200 jumps or so. It takes about 10 minutes to replace the velcro strip. That, in a nut shell, is the pullout system.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The C-Flex after market mod (called the Flappette Kit) dramatically reduces this possibility...also helps reduce snagging the edge of the cap if you door strike. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

A major reason they're not recommended is because of lazy throws. You can get a throw-out further away from you, and thus probably into better air (or so the theory goes). You may still get the bag onto your back wing if it's loose in the container, but that's another issue. If you simply take the pullout to full arm extension (in the wingsuit), the air will take it away from you and then you know you got a good launch. I've jumped it this way some and diablopilot jumps his this way all the time (including his new Skyflyer 3...which is quite possibly the sweetest wingsuit yet made...glides forever!!). I've got my pullout set up so I can change between throwout and pullout in about 1 minute, so I tend to opt towards the throwout when I fly my suit, but you certainly can jump a wingsuit with a pullout safely. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

This thread kind of morphed from another, so I thought it needed it's own place. Here's the question: What are your HONEST reasons for not liking a Pullout? "I know nothing about them" is a perfectly acceptable answer. In fact, ANY truthful answer would be great. Here's the caveat: If you like pullouts (regardless if you jump one or not) PLEASE DON'T POST HERE! I want to get a collection of REAL answers to this question and don't want to pollute the answer pool. Everyone is free to answer, just please be honest. My last point before I let this go: I jump a pullout and do so for many reasons. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I won't respond to any of the posts (unless the poster asks for a response), so you're safe there. This thread is simply here to gather information so that I (we all) can see what people think. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I haven't seen that, but it sounds like it's very secure!

Absolutely, unless the BOC mouth is overly tight. Of course, if it's overly loose, then the p/c can slip out prematurely...hhhmmmmm which way would I rather err? Look, any system works properly when packed and maintained properly. The question is what happens when things aren't perfect? I'm not anti-BOC or anything, I just think the pullout is a safer system. Not as popular because it had a checkered past, but current systems are a significant improvement over the old velcro-hotdogs, and IMO, and only IMO, are even safer than BOCs. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

The difference between cost to a dealer and what the mfg. lists as "Retail" is almost never more than 35%...and is often less. Now, take into account that NO ONE sells at retail (because there are simply too many trunk dealers out there), the actual profit margin is almost never more than 15%, which anyone in sales will tell you is pretty much not enough to keep the lights on. For this particular instance (Cypres units) you also have to take into account that the price on the Cypres-1 has stayed the same, despite the change in the Euro...which is the unit we're billed in...which has caused the margin to go down almost monthly. It's almost a detriment to stock the things, based off up front costs, then you get chewed down for an additional $50 because someone found it online for cheaper! I've vented this before, but next time you go out and buy something from an internet site or a trunk dealer because it's cheaper, then take it to a shop and ask them to install it, don't wonder why they look disappointed. Those people that work in gear shops, for the most part, dedicate themselves to helping their customers make the right choices for their safety and enjoyment. If you can get service when something goes wrong on a product you buy from a trunk dealer, more power to you...but good luck with that! The extra money you pay to work with a shop is insurance for the future. You get what you pay for! "Get a real job then" I hear some of you saying...I work this job because I enjoy it, I have the background to be good at it, and because I like helping people. Would you really want someone with motives other than that helping you pick gear? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That's one opinion. IMO, the pullout is the safest, most secure deployment device there is. It virtually eliminates horse-shoes, as well as p/c-in-tow. If the PUD comes loose (which it probably won't if you do some basic maintenance), you can still reach back and snag it OR go to your reserve with nothing but 8 inches of lanyard over your back (read: clean air). Put it this way, if your main container comes open (for a variety of reasons), you're far more likely to get a complete deployment with a pullout system than with a BOC. You're also more liklely to get a main deployment, even if your p/c fails, because you don't need the extra drag to open the container (as you've already done that)! Just my opinion.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

whatever dude... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

First off, have you ever seen ANYONE sell a Cypres for more than Mfg. suggested retail?? I doubt it. AirTec sets the price, the dealers mark it DOWN from there. There is no marking it up. Secondly, no one is getting rich of selling ANYTHING in the skydiving industry...especially not Cypres units with what the Euro has done against the Dollar recently. The average margin btwn wholesale and retail in the skydiving industry is less than 35%. Compare this against most other retail industries where the markup is like 100%+ and you'll see that no one is "gouging" anyone out there. Skydiving is an expensive sport...sorry, but that's the way it is. I wish we could sell items at 5% over cost, but that simply doesn't keep the lights on! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm very aware of how the TSO process works, and am aware of what markings a canopy must have, but this doesn't change the fact that the Mfg. sets the limits of use (as long as they're under the FAA's max limits). The TSO has nothing to do with what the Mfg. gives as DNE. They are two separate animals. As with all certified stuff, you are required to comply with the more conservative numbers issued. The TSO process is one that gives the FAA control over minimums. The Mfg DNE is what gives the Mfg some limit of liability. There is no question as to why the numbers are different, if you wonder why, ask a lawyer. I think we're actually saying the same thing here, unless I misread what you said originally. My point was, once someone is over load/over speed, the Mfg. is basically off the hook from a liability sense. They (the Mfg.) said not to do this, you did it and it broke. Perhaps I wasn't clear in how I presented that, although it read fine to me.... My point of "other circumstances" is that the Mfg. is going to have loop holes to get out of trouble based on circumstances out of their control. It's hard to hold Mfgs. accountable for much, once use and abuse is involved...like I said, I think we're saying the same thing here. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

If you're buying it from a shop, they'll almost always give you some time to have your rigger look it over and make sure it's right for you...thats what we do. If you're buying it from an individual, sometimes people use a third party go between to hold the check and the gear, usually a shop or a reputed rigger. Once the buyer is satisfied with the rig, the third party releases the check to the seller and the rig to the buy...something we've also done in the past. Most bigger shops will help you out with one (or both) of these services. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I see by you're profile that you're in the Bay Area. You might consider checking out Action Air Parachutes, we're in Davis, up by Sac. We have a very complete used gear selection and the list can be found online at www.actionair.com. THIS IS NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT, JUST ANSWERING A QUESTION!!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[bowing appologetically] I see, you are totally correct... [/bowing] "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Hmmmm...you might be right, I thought they did...but I've been wrong before, once...I thought I was mistaken, but it turns out I wasn't... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That's what I said the first time someone asked me about how to remove a slider in flight. I guess it's just too old of an idea for cool guys...they looked at me with crossed eyes and said "Eeewwwww"... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Most of your bigger lofts will be able to supply you with tools. We (Action Air Parachutes) do, Square One does, etc.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Ah, yes, but we're not talking about selling them gear, we're talking about repacking a certified canopy into a certified H&C system. Let's not confuse the issue here.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I think it's 5, but I'm not sure what they'll actually fly in it. You've got to buy tickets in advance, so contact manifest and get hooked up! 1-800-SKYDIVE in Nor.Cal, or (530) 753-2651. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."