rigging65

Not a problem. I can totally understand not wanting to pursue certain aspects of the sport. I, for one, am not all that crazy about freeflying. Mostly because I'm a Master Rigger and I work on the most modern gear regularly AND NONE OF IT IS MEANT TO HANDLE THE SPEEDS ASSOCIATED WITH FREEFLY. Now, the extra speed doesn't bother some folks, so it's all good for them, just not for me. But... if you're not going to at least gain some proficiency in all areas of the sport, you have no business holding a MASTER PARACHUTIST'S License...because you're not a MASTER! I think if you're going to restructure the licenses, having a MASTER license shouldn't really get you anything extra (ie- you shouldn't need it to do open field demos, night jumps, whatever), but instead it should be there as an accomplishment for those that are proficient at all aspects of the sport. As for Rigging and Instructing not making you a better skydiver, I cry BS! Skydiving isn't just falling through the sky, it's about gear understanding, body flight dynamics, canopy handling, trouble shooting, emergency procedures....in short, it's about EVERYTHING! And if you don't have at least a background in EVERYTHING, then you're certainly not a MASTER. This is in no way directed at anyone, but I think we as a society are so caught up in being "the best" or obtaining the "highest level" that we get pissed when that level actually requires us to be not just good, but great, at what we're participating in. Not everyone would get a MASTER license (if the changes I've mentioned were made), but then, not everyone can be a MASTER. Just my opinion.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

There are a couple of ways to retract a p/c. Most CReW canopies have additional bridle attachment points spread out across the top skin. When the canopy inflates, it pulls the bridle (which is generally Dacron line) through the additional rings, thus pulling the p/c up onto the canopy and out of the way. You can also use the slider to reef the p/c in, but most dedicated CReW canopies use the previous method. CReW canopies often have several of their key "A" lines non-cascaded. It lets you slide up and down the lines without getting caught up in the cascade points. To my knowledge, you can't get Triathlons with retract p/c systems, but you can get them with CReW linesets (Dacron....always dacron). The important thing to remember about CReW is that you'll make you life a lot easier if you and the folks you jump with all have the same model canopy, loaded about the same. We fly Lightnings out here, loaded at 1.3, and it works well for us, but we had a guy come to play on a Triathlon loaded about the same and he couldn't even stay in the dive. Different trim issues, different flight characteristics. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm not a big fan of putting someone without too many jumps into a live cutaway situation (providing they don't need to be there). Also, I don't think "triple" rigs do a good job of simulating a cutaway...you need to pull the handles with them in the correct places (IMO). I do think you could work a live cutaway into the 'D' license (soon to be 500 jumps) criteria. Of course, my idea of what a Master Parachutist's license needs to include is a bit more broad than what I think most people are willing to put up with. IMO, to get the highest license offered, I think you should be able to complete a predetermined routine in: RW, Freefly, CReW, Style, do night RW, Freefly and CReW, shoot both traditional and sport/swoop Accuracy, land a canopy with a loading over 2.0 while in control, hold some sort of Instructor rating and hold a rigger's rating. Why? Because to be labeled a "MASTER" means you can do everything. Back in the day of rounds and surplus gear, 200 jumps did give you a lot of experience. At the risk of derailing this thread even further, 200 jumps just isn't a big deal any more...hell, 500 jumps is hardly a big deal any more! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Get a copy of the SIM and IRM and start reading up on what you'll need to know for the Coach Course. Then practice the dive flows and ground preps. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

That wasn't the feature that was stolen, so no dice...It'll be worth the wait! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Cool! Good for them! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

...silly Malyan... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Your chest strap takes very little load on opening. Most of it translates to your main lift webs, unless you've slipped your harness off your shoulders. You simply don't need much there...it's job is to hold the MLWs together, they (and your leg straps) do the work. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

But it doesn't have to. As I've mentioed before, you can pack it in such a way as to check to be sure it's cocked. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

For canopies differing by 50-75ft., yes. But I'm talking about having a 249 reserve and a non-crossbraced 120. Cross-bracing allows mfgs. a lot of "marketing room" because they pack up so much bulkier than a conventional canopy does. And since most (many) people flying at 2.0 are flying cross-braced stuff, this works. But most of those same people are flying their reserves loaded at 1.5+, because of the cool factor of not wanting any bigger container than the smallest one they can get their main into. So whatever size container that is, they get a reserve to match. IMO, a truly next generation rig should be able to handle a 1.0 loaded reserve and a 2.0 loaded main, cross-braced or not. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Sorry, I tried to give it away once, but the mfgs. I spoke to didn't want the info. Until we're ready to release it and sell it, I'm not giving anything away that someone else might take and productionize. We've already lost at least one unique design feature because people were talking about it a year ago. Guess we just need to hurry the hell up, eh...? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

There is a way to accommodate any two canopies in a rig without changing the look of the container system. No production rig/company has been willing to make the relatively minor change necessary to accommodate this. Not yet...but it's coming. If you're jumping a napkin, it'd be nice to have a reserve that is within spec., right? The dual-square study aside (which has some very salient points!), people are jumping reserves that are simply too small for them these days.... We need to change that. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I'm all for some sort of jump number/wingload requiremnets, with the necessary option of being able to test out early. If you think you're hot shit, prove it. Not just once - but on a few jumps, over a few days. WL @ 2.1, 1000+ jumps AFF/I, CCD, Master Rigger "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I "S" fold the bridle and stash it under the top flap, then fold the p/c over once and pull the bottom flap up over it to hold it in place. On most pullouts there is no "hackey", only the PUD on the end of the lanyard, so there is no "lump". On my convertible model, I have a flat foam PUD sewn in place of a hackey. When packed as a pullout, the throwout handle PUD lays flat inside the tray and is invisible. When packed as a throwout, my rig just looks like a pullout rig (as my "hackey" is a PUD) with a slightly "plump" bottom end (as the p/c is in the BOC). I remove the pullout PUD, so it's no longer in the equation. Again, most pullout bridles don't have windows to check your kill-line through, but if yours does (or if you add one), I would put the window about 8 inches short of the bag. That way, then you roll the bag into place, you leave the section of bridle with the window out of your "S" folds, and don't trap it under the top flap. This way it can be checked later on. You can even add a little tab of velcro if you like, and make an anchor point on the top flap to stick your bridle to for ease of viewing....as on some rigs for checking throwout kill-lines. It isn't a hard mod to do. Your local rigger should be able to knock it out for you. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Chris- The important thing is that you did the research and collected the information, then made a choice based on that information. Good for you! Incidentally, the container being open doesn't mean your bag just blows out and into the wind...unless your gear is way out of spec. anyway. The other objection sometimes made is that the pullout sequence is actually an out of sequence deployment because the container is open before the pilot chute is inflated. Here's the thing: That's only an out of sequence deployment if you define your deployment based on what happens with a throw-out system (ie- p/c inflates, then the container is opened). Anyway, good for you taking the time to research the systems and making your own, informed choice! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I couldn't disagree more! ANY time you overspeed or overload your equipment you're operating outside mfgs. spec., regardless of if you deploy or not, because there is absolutely no way that you can assure that your canopy won't deploy AT ANY GIVEN TIME! No one that has a premi was expecting it, planning for it, or even ready for it! If you're overload or overgross, you're outside the spec. End of story. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Tight closing loops, good bridle protection, GEAR CHECKS, being aware of you're movements in the plane (or whenever you have your gear on). There are also different main deployment systems that reduce the propensity for horseshoe mals... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

When your main container goes slack, the BOC pouch will tend to flop up against your back, meaning you have to reach up "higher" than you normally would...plus the handle will be moving around as the bottom flap moves around...add to this the stress of having a mess over your head, and it gets scary real quick... This is probably one of the bigger reasons why I jump a pullout. In theory, yes. But lets assume you can't find the hackey, or if the p/c is out of the BOC but hitched around your hand/foot. Now you're forced to (quickly) try and get it loose (without loosing stability and getting wrapped in your lines), then cutting away. Now, since there isn't a whole lot of drag being generated by a heavy bag floating above your back, your risers may not separate cleanly. Assuming they do (or you pull them loose by hand after cutting away), you're still trailing that entire mess behind you...only about 8-10 inches away from the path your reserve deployment is going to try and take. Oh, did I forget to mention you're still eating up 1000' of altitude every 6 seconds??? Seem a bit more scary now? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

...especially considering that the TSO tests are based on "in new condition" canopies. Get the canopy dirty/wet/used/old and the canopy may very well not take the stress you decide to deal out to it. Remember, TSO certification is about getting the process by which a product is made certified. It doesn't say anything about what "a 5 year old, three times ridden and landed in the sand" canopy will do the next time it opens... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

How do I avoid collisions with (other) hook turners? I remind myself that it isn't my right to hook, and that there will always be another jump to hook on. Sometimes you just have to let that one go and just land. Better to walk a long way than be carried a short way. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

Here you go. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

I want to thank everyone for their input, especially Mr. Booth. Your aged wisdom is always appreciated! The information that you've all put forward reinforces the idea to me that the pullout system is what it is....a slightly more complex and less well understood system. Many of the concerns voiced in this thread are based off pullout designs and concepts from years ago. Many of them still hold true, some I don't believe are valid anymore. But the point is, perception is reality. There aren't more pullout systems out there, because there are so few pullout systems out there to begin with. Again, thanks to everyone who posted, I appreciate your candor! Happy jumping!!

Cool. The designs like that that I've seen work the best are when the BOC is integrated into the entire bottom flap (like the Reflex was). You've got plenty of room for the p/c to spread out in, so that elastic "stretch" of the BOC pouch itself is really not needed. As long as there is room for the p/c and it's not jammed in there tight, it sounds like a good system. Cordura is much more hardy than spandex, so it lasts longer and tends to take abuse better. My reservations still hold about aftermarket cordura BOCs though. Be sure they were designed with cordura in mind, not just a spandex BOC pattern that someone thought would last longer in cordurea...they last longer, but they can also cause totals! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

So I take it that it's the same as any other aftermarket BOC kit, it's just made of cordura, yes? I know a guy who made his own BOC that way...he had 3 totals on it before he replaced it with spandex. I thought those had gone the way of the Dodo. I've still never seen one, but I suspect there is a reason for that. Maybe they figured it out with the Wings! Since the Cordura doesn't stretch, the guy I know who built the Cordua BOC had his p/c wedged in their tight as a snare drum. It wasn't going anywhere. After a few reserve rides, and some playing around, he moved on from it. Is the Wings model cut extra "baggy" or something? I'm interested and always willing to learn a new trick, especially about a rig variant we never get to see out here!!

We're getting off track again. Please post other questions about pullouts to another thread. I'm really trying to keep this just for negative comments about the system. Thanks!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."