
rigging65
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Everything posted by rigging65
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1) Both systems work well....each has its own benefits and disadvantages. 2) Many Wingsuit flyers use pull-outs without issue. 3) "Out of sequence" is only out-of-sequence based off what you determine "in sequence" to be. ie - A pull-out is only an out-of-sequence deployment if you determine the only way to be "in sequence" is to use a throwout. That argument doesn't fly. Pilot chute, then canopy...that's the sequence you need to worry about, regardless of what system you jump...anything else is bad. 4) Jump what you're comfortable with. Collect information from people you trust and make the decision you're comfortable with. After all, it's your ass jumping it, not the people who are giving you the info.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Material that is damaged (sunburnt, chemically damaged, just old) takes very little pressure to make fail using the thumb test. Pretty much every field canopy I've ever had fail while testing did so with minimal pressure...If you have to strain that hard, the material is still good. The 40 lb. pull test will actually damage the material if its done incorrectly... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Sure, it happens...almost always due to pilot error (not getting low enough coming out the door, usually). Of course you have to ask yourself; If you were close enough to snag the pop-top on the door frame, what was going to happen to your rig anyway. Answer: You were going to rake your reserve pin assembly (under the flaps) across the bar as well. Enough pressure on it and the loop can break or the pin can bend. End result: No matter what type of rig you're jumping, get low in the door and be aware as you exit!! With that said, there is a mod (at least for the Reflex) that installs a small diamond-shaped flap over the leading (top) edge of the pop-top to help "keep it smooth" and reduce the possibility of a snag. It's called the Flappette mod. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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I had one of the earlier ones, so I don't know if it's changed since then, but I wasn't really happy with the way the visor could "slip" down if you take a hard step on landing. Upon experimentation, I found that mine almost always ended up right where I didn't want it to. I want a helmet that leaves my vision totally unobscured while under canopy...so I ended up going back to my factory diver (without a lens) and a pair of snug fitting glasses...and sold my Havok. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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I agree. Triples give you a great feel for what the canopy is doing. I love them...as long as you have one-piece lower control lines (a piece of line trapped into the control line makes the cat's eye, as opposed to a terminal loop and a length of line hanging off it). Otherwise, the cat's eye tends to snag on the guide ring...not a big deal as far as canopy control is concerned, you can still fly and land, it just feels a bit restrictive. On canopies that don't have continuous lower control lines, I simply replace them with continuous sets..but then, that's the advantage of being a rigger. To echo the sentiment already expressed, they are not a good idea on a first rig though... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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As white as that loop looks, I'd say it probably was changed at the last repack. It might have gotten damaged removing the pull-up cord...perhaps the damage was hidden until the loop rotated a bit or something. ...or it could be from the flap... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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a feeling of faint under an open canopy...
rigging65 replied to Kuper's topic in Safety and Training
The body is truly an amazing thing...and it does really well when you keep it in it's normal environment. Unfortunately, hanging in a canopy isn't the body's normal environment! Just crossing your legs while you fly isn't going to do much, but all you really need to do is to tighten and relax your muscles a few times in the middle of your canopy descent. If you start harness steering, then you're going to be using your legs more than you know...I think the people most "at risk" are people who are opening high, then just hanging out and not doing much (ie - tandems). I used to have my tandem students practice their landing position a few times during our canopy ride (legs up!), which keeps their mind on the correct position and also gets them moving their legs so they don't feel sick...especially with that much adrenaline flowing! Just flex and relax, and take care of yourself on the ground...it'll be all good! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." -
a feeling of faint under an open canopy...
rigging65 replied to Kuper's topic in Safety and Training
Very interesting, there is a medical (or pre-hospital) condition called "Harness Sickness" that results in feeling faint while under canopy...or while suspended in any full-body harness. Here's how it works: Your body's venus return system (how the blood gets back to your heart from your extremities, especially your legs) has A LOT to do with your muscles flexing and pushing the blood back up. If you're sitting in a harness, and leaving your muscles limp, the blood just doesn't make it back up to your heart (and thus less gets to your head) and you'll start to feel faint. One of the reasons why you faint (called syncope, in medical circles), is to get all your body parts on the same level, so that your heart doesn't have to work so hard to get blood moved around. Now, here's the kicker with Harness Sickness. You start feeling faint because your not getting the venus return you need to keep oxygenating your brain, because you're not using your leg muscles. If you pass out, your body is expecting you to end up flat on your back, thus making blood movement easier. Well, in a harness, you're obviously not going to end up flat on your back, but your heart is going to keep pumping blood to your legs (where it will mostly remain)...this can actually kill you! You basically "bleed out" into your legs, and don't have enough blood to feed O2 to the rest of your body. Now, from what I've read about it, we're talking like 45 minutes or so, with no leg movement, but it can happen! So while flying your canopy isn't life threatening (at least not because of Harness Sickness ) here are some things to keep in mind: 1) If you're going to be in the harness for a while (a high alti hop-n-pop for instance) flex your major leg muscles from time to time while under canopy and bend at the knees. 2) Stretch out in the AM. Before you get going, take some time to stretch and warm up. Get the muscles working and the blood flowing. It will help keep the blood flowing all day...and reduce muscle strains as well. 2) Eat well and stay hydrated. Your body doesn't react well when it's not nourished, and dehydration can really screw up the way your body functions on a cellular level...the adrenaline and harness time doesn't make it any better, so do what you can to help your body! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." -
May your retirement treat you well! Try not to infect too many young riggers with your positive outlook. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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The biggest reason you still have a spring in your reserve system is that its a remote system. That is, you can pull the handle, hold on to it, and the spring does the rest. It's also highly conducive to using the current model AADs. Other than that, it's a bulky, expensive, labor intensive system that does one thing well, and that's it. Of course, that one thing is the thing we insist upon with a reserve system: Remote activation. So, I should have to alter my body position (into a less stable one that has me moving around the sky) in order to ensure a clean deployment? No thanks. I'll stick with a system that let's me STAY STABLE AND IN ONE COLUMN OF AIR while I deploy. This assumes you're placing your ripcord on your leg or belly or chest. Many ripcords are (currently) placed right where a BOC handle would be...to help ease the transition to throw-outs. This is like saying that a pull-out system is an out-of-order deployment, because it doesn't follow the same order as a throw-out. IMO, if you could somehow (and I don't know how) get an AAD to activate and deploy your non-spring loaded reserve system without ANY jumper intervention, I think you might see a great decrease in the Spring count out there. People like hand deploy...it's cleaner to use and more compact (giving you a cooler, smaller rig), and you don't have any pieces to loose. Why do you think that less than 5% of the licensed sport community are using ripcords on their mains anymore? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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So do I, and no it's not. It does take some technique and a bit of learning. I'm sure, if you're interested in learning a bit, someone near you could help you out with it. Learning never stops...saying it's hard just means you haven't got all the tricks lined up yet! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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True enough...but then you have to rely on the spring to clear the burble, something your arm can do for you. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Or, just learn how to pack... It's really not that hard. Just make sure you've got a nice deep crater in the middle of the packjob. Same a for a Javelin. Now, over-stuffing a pop-top...that certainly complicates things. But it's all about the cool factor of having too small a rig, right!?! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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This ties nicely into the discussion about pull-outs and throw-outs. Loose BOCs and air flow over a permeable pouch can cause funky things to happen! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Those have been around for a quite a while. Good stuff, and easy to install. The only down side is that they usually have plastic inserts in them, and they can break...then they are mostly useless and can actually damage your slider if they hook it. Also, they add a bit of bulk to your risers. Not so much as to be a problem, but a bit. Overall, they're way cool though! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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No, and I've never heard on one...but that doesn't mean it can't happen. IMO, the major argument that people have against pull-outs is that you are more likely to have a total mal with them. And most people will agree that you reduce the odds of having a p/c in tow and a horseshoe with a pull-out. I couldn't agree more, and thats why I like the system. I think you're much less likely to have a p/c in tow or a horseshoe (both of which I really dislike the idea of) and if you do have a total on a pull-out, you're putting your reserve out past a little PUD on an 8 inch bridle. Beats the hell out of a 9 foot bridle and a p/c, if you ask me. Both systems work fine. One requires a bit more attention during packing, but not much. I'm all about stacking the deck in my favor in this sport, so if I can find a way to reduce the odds of two mals in exchange for the possibility of one mal (if I am REALLY sloppy when I close my container), the math works out better for me, in my head. Thats why I chose a pull-out. It's also been my experience that some (please don't read into this, I said SOME) old dawgs that were around back when the pull-out first came around, have very bad memories of their friends going in searching for a floating PUD. The system for securing the PUD to the rig was very different back then, and VERY substandard. It's rather rare to hear of floating PUDs now-a-days, and pull-out jumpers know the 2 strikes rule. IMO, the advancements in the system have brought it into the same realm of security (if not more-so) than the spandex BOC. Plus, a pull-out p/c is totally protected from the wind (unlike a spandex BOC) and requires less maintenance than a BOC...all additional reasons why I like it. ...my $.02 cents... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Which deployment system does your DZ use?
rigging65 replied to riggerrob's topic in Gear and Rigging
We use Tandem training (with the student pulling...the drogue release is positioned for them as it would on a BOC system) then directly to AFF with hand deploy throw-out style pilot chutes. The Tandems are not mandatory, you can go straight to AFF cat. A, but almost everyone does the Tandem progression. The real skydiving world doesn't use ripcords on mains anymore, so why should students learn on a system that they are going to have to transition away from in 15 jumps or so? Teach the way you play, learn it once, and learn it correctly. We've had very good success with this (these) systems. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." -
I disagree. From my experience with both types, the mouth of the pouch is where all the binding takes place. What the rest of the pouch is made of has very little impact on the system as a whole. Now a standard 4 in wide BOC made out of Cordura is going to be pretty tough to stuff a p/c into, but an integrated Cordura BOC system is much easier to pack, and has less maintenance issues. I disagree with this as well. All you need to do to cause a very hard or impossible pull on ANY BOC system is to fold the pilot chute into a long roll, then fold it in half (so it looks like to rolls next to each other). The result is a monkey fist that can be very hard to clear at the end of your pull from a properly tensioned BOC pouch. Try it and see...then never do it again! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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IMO, cordura is nice because it blends into the rig more. That's another reason I like a pull-out (it's way down my list, but it's a nice little benefit). It's also more resistant to damage, which is probably a better reason to like it than the one above. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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That's correct. F111 will tear a bit, then tear a bit more, then a bit more...over time. When ZP goes, it goes huge. The easiest example of this is when you look at destroyed canopies. ZP canopies blow up HUGE when they blow up, often running the length of cell (or near it). That's just not something you see in F111 very often. Holes in ZP (big enough to get a finger in) are an invitation for a blown cell. I've seen tears two to three inches long in F111 canopies that didn't cause structural failure. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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It's not perfect, but in my experience, if someone remains laying facedown after an accident, they are generally in an pretty emergent situation, so all bets are off. You cut where you can to get them extricated as fast as can be done safely. It's human nature to want to role over and not have your face in the mud if you can. If you can't, it's generally because you're messed up. I do have to say, though, I've taken rigs off two people that were laying face down and didn't want to move (both had EMS experience and wanted to ensure C-spine precautions were maintained on themselves), I did everything the same, except I had to cut the leg straps and chest strap as well. This is most certainly true!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I disagree with it. IMO, cutting the laterals, and nothing else, is the easiest way to get the rig off...and I've cut many of them off. You can un-do the chest strap and leg straps, then by simply cutting the laterals, you can lift the MLWs over the victims head and they're out. The repair is very simple, just lift the backpad, replace the lateral, and close the backpad. The one caveat to this would be with a dual articulated rig. Then, I would only cut the MLW between the articulations, and rotate the four "sections" up and out of the way (after un-doing the legs and chest). It's very easy to repair that section...like 30 minutes or an hour, at most. Of course, if the situation is truly emergent, then we're going to cut whatever makes it fastest. FWIW, I'm an EMT in Paramedic school with a large Fire Dept. I'm also a Volunteer firefighter at the station right across the runway from our DZ...and a Master Rigger...so I've done this once or twice and have seen it from both sides. We actually drill our Volunteers every year on how to cut harnesses off of jumpers...something I know other DZs have discussed with their First Responders, with much success. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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You are absolutely incorrect. ZP "shatters" when F111 only "tears". I've seen happen many, many times...but I don't think that has anything to do with why some mfgs. recommend F111 (something I disagree with). Ask youself this: Why would you want the object responsible for getting your canopy out into the air to change over time? F111 wears out and becomes more porous with every jump. How can you expect to get continuity if it's always changing?!? The answer? Buy a new one every couple of hundred jumps...at a cost of about $100. Hmmm...am I missing something here. Do the words "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anyone? If you're worried about line dump (something else I think is pretty much crap - I jump a stowless D-bag), then realize that you don't need at 34" ZP pilot chute! It's more efficient, so it doesn't need to be as big...and it'll be the same every time. With that said, it's not a bad idea to replace your risers and P/C every time you reline your canopy (or at, say, about 600 jumps, if you want to wait). They'll actually go longer than this, but it'd be a shame if you went in because you didn't buy new risers every couple of years. All parts wear out and need to be replaced...but buying something that I know is going to wear out 4 times as fast just doesn't make sense to me! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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Ummm, no, you're wrong, that wasn't a skygod statement, that was a statement of fact. Wrong again. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
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No need to apologize, you didn't do anything wrong. I learned how to rig in a very progressive loft (which I later took over as Manager when I became a Master Rigger). People generally assume that the mfg. is the end-all-be-all when it comes to gear. Actually, if you ask most mfgs., they'll tell you that they rely heavily on the field rigger to confirm proper operation of a system, and even to act as a secondary QC system. No one is perfect, and the field rigger has a much better chance of making a correct decision or finding a screw up while they're working on the rig, than does the mfg. several hundred or even thousands of miles away. The mfg. is a great source of information (after all, they designed the damn thing!), but the field rigger is really where the buck stops. I used to be in almost constant contact with different mfgs. to get info and find out little nuances about different rig sizes or canopy trims...but thats because I was passionate about what I was doing. I wanted to learn something knew every day, so I went out and found something new to learn. I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do for everyone, but it sure worked for me. And it also gave me an excellent working relationship with the mfgs. and a better understanding of what they were looking for with their product. I was an advocate for both the Mfg. and the Skydiver. Because of that, both sides were happy with the outcome, and I was more knowledgeable at the end of the day. IMO, if more riggers were less scared about mfgs. and saw them for what they are, there would be a lot more really good riggers out in the world. Just because they build it doesn't make them perfect...any of them...they're just skydivers who like to sew. Get to know them, they'll teach you things, and you might even teach them a thing or two! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..."