Genie

The one that sticks in my mind came after talking to a whuffo on a train and explaining that we do actually have some control in freefall, can track, adjust fall rate yadda yadda - With a hugely disbelieving attitude she said " Well Why do you have a parachute then?" I explained it was kinda useful for slowing down before landing.. Genie

Just FYI in our club we had a kinda unwritten rule - if your cypress fires because you have lost alti awareness then you were grounded. The idea was you'd already had your chance, ie you were now a dead man walking. I dont know anyone in our club who has ever had a cypress fire for going low. (we are a v small club by US standards tho) Our CCI did fire one by spiralling down on a student rig

Oh well there you go

On the speech Mr Bush gave he said he was going to free Iraq. BEaring in mind that 2/3rds of the iraq population are shi'a muslims, ie fairly fundamentalist - what if they decide they would like to put in a taliban style government - will the US let them? Genie

I would just like thanks to everyone who responded to this thread - i've found it to be a reasoned discussion in the most part and certainly enlightening. Thnk you Kmcguffee for the information you posted - just to clarify slightly I didnt intend to give the impression that the US ignores the IRA or condones their activities. The reason i say this is because your post doesnt refer tot he activies of NORAID - have a look at their own web site www.noraid.com to see some fairly scary stuff - but to the RIRA. I am pleasantly surprised by the way that people havent taken offense at my original post on this matter - no offense was intended but that doesnt always help does it? Bodypilot - you seem to be convinced that a) Sadaam does have WMD b) they were involved in 9/11 and hence the invasion is justified. I refer you to Bill Von's post - how do you know? And if you know something about that these WMDs then it really was your duty to tell the UN inspectors where they were. The fact is that no one in the western world *KNOWS* for certain one way or the other. Regarding b) 9/11. Its damn good propaganda and interesting to see how it works so well on you, but the fact is you're in a minority believing that this is the case. As i said in another thread where you posted a link to what you called Verified Evidence - it wasnt. In fact, even in those articles, no one was saying there was a link. The closest we got was one person stating that there were non iraqi arabs being trained - ever hear of Hammas? To be blunt, bearing in mind the difference in ideology between Sadaam and Osama, and also the hatred Sadaam has for Israel, its is a lot more likely that these non iraqi arabs were Hammas or the PLO etc. Now i dont condone the training of terrorists either - but the US has been doing so for years. Bodypilot - i really would appreciate if you would address my points above, i look forward to hearing your response. Although i am hoping that it wont be just another statement of something you believe without any reason to believe it. Genie

http://www.megastories.com/ireland/glossary2/noraid.htm text for your convenience: NoraidAn American support group for the Republican cause, the Irish Northern Aid Committee, to use its full name, has been accused of funding the IRA. Group leaders have always denied this, saying Noraid was set up in 1969 to provide relief for families of Republican guerrillas jailed or killed in the struggle. Its founder, Michael Flannery, was himself an IRA man back in the 1920s. There are over 40 million Americans who claim some Irish descent. Many major cities such as Boston, New York and Chicago have large Irish communities where Irish Republicanism and anti-British feeling flourishes. In 1977, the U.S. Department of Justice made Noraid register officially as an agent of the Provisional IRA. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - that good enough for you Rhino? The group has said its funds are distributed through Sinn Fein in Dublin and the Green Cross in Belfast. In 1982, five Noraid officials were acquitted in New York of gun-running to the IRA. Flannery, one of the five, denied that he had been involved in gun-running to the IRA, but said he approved of it. The group raised a lot of money in the early 1980s when sympathy ran high because of the Hunger Strikes. But by 1990, British minister Peter Brooke said Noraid had declined in significance as a funder of the IRA. It still raises the hackles of the British government and infuriates Unionists. Noraid and other Irish American groups frequently send observers to Northern Ireland flashpoints. BTW it gets my hackles up too big-time. I object to people, who know nothing from a personal standpoint, funding people who kill children, bomb civilians and use Black and Decker Drill on peoples knees IN MY COUNTRY. Now - lets see who will address this, or will this thread just die a death because no one wants to admit it? Genie

Apologies Michele - i have the TV on here and heard someone say it without contradiction. I dont have a link. Genie

I could be wrong on this but I think that while they have resigned from their government positions, they are still elected officials and so entitled to vote against this issue - which they probably will do Genie

Can we add a #5? To be honest Rev I would prefer to keep the thread going. Its thru threads like this - and on on rec.skydiving called Franc Sucks that has changed my mind on this war. In this kind of discussion - leaving out the whole insults and im better than you coz i was in the army stuff, some people are bringing up good points that make me for one think. Mind you - im sure everyone reading my stuff thinks im completely anti Bush and War - im not. But i do want to challenge what people seem to believe about why the US is going to war - ie France 'abused' a veto - The US has used its veto 34 time re Israel - they didnt get attacked by the rest of the world for being pussies and capitalists etc. I want to challenge these things and make people *think* about what they are saying and what they believe and i think a thread like this is an oportunity to do this for those who will read what is said and address what is said - not what they think was said. To Mrs Lowpullin - my heart goes out to you and all the people in your situation. you are all in my prayers. While i may come across as anti war I would like to state here and now that I have the utmost respect and admiration for those people who will put their lives on the line in the coming weeks for what they believe. God keep them all. Genie

Proof? have you ever heard of NORAID ? A Legal fund raising and lobbying body in America? Who sent money to the IRA on a regular basis for about 20 years? C'mon, thats like saying show me proof that the Red Cross gives money to refugees! And tey cant be prosecuted because they operated with the sanction of the US Government. They were a legal body. Rhino - i understand that its alien to you that americans would support terrorists. I understand as well that the people who gave money to NORAID genuinely believed that they were helping - but that money was used by terrorists, for terrorist activities in the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. You may not want to believe it, its unpalatable - but its also a well known fact. Genie

But they're not all invading with you. Im talking about the invasion. And im watching the house of commons debate right now and it doesnt look like a sure thing there either, and thats the country that has been the US's most vocal supporter. BTW I think it will go through, but it wont be a landslide by any means - have a look at the thread i started on the debate. Yes - but the point of the UN was to gain consensus on these acts. You shouldnt have joined in the first place if you were always going to go your own way.. Interesting concept. In the long run that *may* be the result, but in the short term it has made the entire world less safe. Terror threats have risen in Saudi, Kuwait, UK, US, Yemen, Israel, Jordan, Bahrain etc.. The US goal is actually to change the Regime in Iraq with the idea that this will make the world safer is Sadaam isnt in charge. Once the US gives Iraq its freedom, and they decide perhaps to become another fundamentalist regime - rem that Sadaam is in the minority there and 2/3rds of the country are fundamentalists - what happens then?? What happens when there is another Taliban in Ira and they *are* supporting Osama? Bear in mind that in this instance the US is really dooing what Osama wants... he wants Sadaam out too. Define abusing. They said they will use it as they are entitled to do. Has the US been *abusing* its veto for the last 30 years when banning any action against Israel? Quite possibly I really dont know *why* they are taking this stance. As a matter of interest whats Americas goal in continually using its veto? The UN became terminally useless *** Lets hope not. Or the US may end up looking at Vietnam as a weekend outing. Without the UN after this war, are you going to take on all the restructuring by yourselves? all the peacekeeping etc? Genie

Not to mention that Mr Bush will have to get on te campaign trail sometime soon if he wants to go for a second term - isnt that right? Genie

If it wasnt so serious this would be hilarious! Tony Blair is the leader of the labour party and the Conservative party is in opposition. The conservatives are backing Tony Blair and will vote in favour. Tony's own party is staging a revolt and arguing against him. They are tabling an ammendment to the motion to go to war, basically saying its not justified. 3 senior members of the cabinet have resigned and a couple of Permanent Private secretaries - members of the Civil Service of all things - have also quit. But the conservatives think hes dead on. the debate will continue til about 5pm EST and then they will vote. If it passes its gotta be one of the first times that the Prime Ministers motion was passed not by the government but by the opposition. History in the making alright. Genie

This from sky news - apparently Osama has called on the iraqi people to oust Sadaam. Well - they say war makes strange bed fellows but this one has to take the cake! Genie

Ah, i was wondering about that- just assumed i had missed the congress vote.. is there anyone in the congress or senate ( im really not that familiar with the american system and dont know which house would be responsible) who is not going with the flow? Is there any elected official standing out against in the states? Genie

It isn't going to be a unilateral invasion!!*** are you sure about that? the Uk Prime minister is in favour of this war, thats true = but he doesnt have the fnal say and they havent voted on this yet. Other than the 200 men from Poland who have been commited, it may very well be a unilateral invasion. I agree. But our moral standards aren't matched by our enemies. They would nuke us without hesitation given the tools and an ability to do it anonymously. All "they" need is more time for development, which is why taking action now is better than waiting until later. I think we are doing that now, but I know you disagree. Time will reveal which actions were most prudent. I do think that cuttng the legs off the UN wasnt the best way to go for anyone.. Yes France vetoed it - but america has been vetoing resolutions for years, and no one walked out of the UN as a result.. - speaking specifically about israel here - who btw have been in breach of UN resolutions for about 30 years now.. Genie

and who should America attack after its conquored iraq and saudi? Well the French seem like an obvious target dont they? They didnt want to go to war with iraq, they're obviously terrorist supporters! Where you gonna stop? Genie

My prayers go out to the troops and their familes. y'know John, Ive made that exact point in so many posts on this site that ive lost count. It has *never* been addressed by the person/s who says "We should go to war with Sadaam, he funds terrorists!!" Wonder if you will have any better luck? In most wars the innocent suffer as much or more than the guilty. Thank you for summing up my reservations about it all so succintly :) Genie

ok - i dont know what that is so i cant really comment - care to enlighten me ? Genie

Im wondering if people here realise that the UK may have a lot of soldiers in kuwait etc, but they havent actually committed to going to war? The UK govt works differently to the US, Tony Blair doesnt have final say on this and the vote i think will be tomorrow. After Robin Cooks resignation (the foreign secretary) for which he received a standing ovation in the House of Commons, Tony Blair may not get the result he wants. The British public dont seem to be pro this war, the Prime Minister is fighting a battle in his own political party to get assent never mind the oppositions point of view! What will happen then? I know the US is going to go in anyway, but so far it seems to be the US, turkey and 200 men from Poland and 'assistance' from the Australians whatever that means... Just something I was wondering about... Genie

Rhino - read all my posts before you jump to conclusions huh? Im not anti this war - im sad its happening, the repercussions on the entire world will be horrific, the number of people who will die - innocent people coz as far as i am concerned all soldiers on all sides in this are innocent - not to mention civilians. And i dont want to watch something like 9/11 on tv again. Thats my point. The liklihood of terrorism increasing in the US from this seems to be really high - hey the CIA FBI and everyone else believes this. Not only will there probably be Sadaams own cells, but it could also be seen as a great opportunity for all the other groups who have issues with the States to go in and stir up sh1t. Because of this probability the freedoms tht have already been curtailed will no doubt be curtailed even more. US citizens will be in fear at home. This i do not welcome. Thats my point. Im not saying this shouldnt happen, i dont have any other answrs and i agree he has to go. But it aint gonna be easy or quick, the reverberations will go on for years. Genie Rhino

Offically? when did that happen? I agree completely that it has been discredited, probably beyond redemption but i didnt see Kofi Annan say it was going into Chapter 7 or anything. In addition to which I wasnt referring to the UN, i was referring to the ICC, to which the UK has signed up and the US has not - which is why i was specifically talking about UK soldiers. This is different from the UN because both the US and UK are apparently members of the UN. Apparently. Genie

it tried and in 12 years nada, time to let the real men handle it. Theres a lot stronger evidence that the Saudi royal family had links to the 9/11 tragedy. The US Government helped them to leave America, and they're not going to war against Saudi are they? The Saudis *personally* handed over money to a 9/11 suspect pre 9/11 - and were given first class airline seats out of the US. Genie (ok i dont know it was first class, but i cant imagine them flying coach :))

Why? Well apparently Sadaam said in response to the ultimatum that when you start the war be aware that it will be fought everywhere - paraphrasing there but what he said certainly gave me the impression that he would have no problem retaliating on american soil. And no doubt he has the capabilities...maybe not war but terrorism... and you know, that really will curtail the freedom... Genie Can you tell me when Sadaam was responsible for attacks on american soil? As i have pointed out elsewere on this site an american organisation, supported and condoned by the american government sent hundreds of thousands of dollars to support terrorism and the families of terrorists.. Glass houses anyone? The organisation was NORAID by the way When did he do that? ive been watching sky news for about 8 hours now and didnt see that.. I dont live in the US - im not worried about me. I am worried about innocent people being killed - and by innocent im including the military personnel out there on all sides.. Mine too, mine too. Im including the iraqi forces in that too tho. Not because im pro Sadaam - far from it - but because watching these young guys on tv, they will do everything they can to defend thei country irrespective of whether or not they agree with their government as would the US military in the event of an invasion. Im not actually anti this war - i dont know what the answer is, and im glad its not my decision to make. Now its going to happen, may it finish fast with the least amount of death possible.. Genie