3ringheathen

I don't want my children to be forced to say "under god" either. I don't want them to be atheists or Christians for that matter. I want my children to decide for themselves. Being forced to say "under god" from a young age decreases the likely hood that they will have an opportunity to do so. I'd like to think that even if I were devoutly religious, I'd still oppose the inclusion of "under god" in this context. Why? Because anything that removes personal choice from the equation weakens both faith and freedom. A religion that can stand on it's own merit not only doesn't need, but should actively avoid anything that even vaguely resembles coercion. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I agree. You can even find genuine plagiarism of ideas in the Bible. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Your take on it is possible, but by no means a foregone conclusion. I don't think it's at all ludicrous. Personally, I'm surprised it's been tolerated for so long without any serious challenge. This case has nothing to do with stopping the mother from raising her child the way she sees fit. It's about separation of church and state. I'm not understanding why the fact that the parents are divorced and have different personal beliefs has any bearing on the legitimacy of the case. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

While it's true that the case was previously dismissed due to this "technicality", and not on the merits of the case, it's no joke. It's how law is supposed to work. IIRC, the court was concerned that taking this case would set other unanticipated precedents for parents that don't have custody. So, while I sympathize with his case, I think the court made the right decision last time. I hope the *substance* of his complaint will be addressed this time around. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Amen. I've seen and heard of some pretty crazy mistakes from all sorts of manufacturers. Missing stitching on everything from harnesses, to toggles, to canopy line attachment points. A canopy without crossports. Correctly made, but mis-assembled parts, and so on. They make mistakes just like the rest of us. It's pretty rare, but it happens. Know your gear. Inspect your gear. Ask questions. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Nice. I think listening to this voice has killed a few people over the years. Glad you kept your priorities straight! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

In theory, I agree. However, once this program has been around for a few years, I'd like to see a careful analysis of who is and is not getting money. I'll be very surprised if there doesn't seem to be a bias in fund dispersment. An obvious example would be Islamic charities Vs Christian charities. It's potentially a rather big can of worms. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Yeah. As far as super powers go, it's pretty useless, but I enjoy it. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Jeff, that's just a poorly modified Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy logo. You ought to be ashamed. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I think your math is off just a tad, bro... I think that was a joke about the strength of the new European economy relative to the US. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

True Side note: Whoever wrote the quote, it's a good one. Thank you on both counts. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

I'm done with you. You refuse to see evidence. Kepp saying that. Maybe someone will believe you. I for one really don't care. You did copy it and claim it is yours. You might have done it by accident, but is now clear you did it knowing it. Keep lying to yourself and have a nice day. Is there any procedure through which one can apply for a waiver to the no personal attacks rules? Pretty please? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

No, not really. But thanks for playing. Your resonses have degenerated to the "No they aren't!" portion of an argument typically heard in a sandbox. You wrote an exact line from another and claimed it was your own. If I did, you ought to take great pleasure in citing what I copied, and the page(s) it can be found in. You can't do that, because you are, once again, wrong. That's libel, and each time you repeat the unfounded accusation, you look worse. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Creationist have gone to great lengths to confuse the issues. This is but one example of completely misunderstanding or plain old fabrication on their part. This sounds a lot like Lamarckism (sp?). This theory was dismissed a long time ago. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Most of that e-mail was simply misleading because it lacked context. This one is a flat out lie according to Snopes: Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state. No one's claiming that. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

It depends upon the context. In the misleading example that started this thread, nothing's wrong with it. The artist commissioned to do the work included historical lawmakers from several religions and cultures. Moses was but one of them. Also included were Hammurabi, Mohamad, and Confucious to name a few. The only commandments actually written out (in Hebrew btw), were chosen because they were not unique to Christianity ie: thou shalt not kill/steal. So the point that the original poster was trying to make is not supported by the facts in context. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Wrong he said the founding Fathers were not Christain...And he was wrong. A categorical statement that ALL of the founding fathers were, or were not Christian is false either way. That's not in dispute, AFAIK. That doesn't have any bearing on the fact that you 1st stated that the US was founded on the Christian religion, and then back pedaled and flatly denied doing so. You've contradicted yourself and it's public record. If you simply failed to make it clear what you meant, that'd be fine if you'd clarified your meaning at the first sign that it was misunderstood. But you didn't. Instead, you chose to deny what you'd clearly written, and even claimed you'd written something entirely different. No one disputes this, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. As was pointed out by JCD(?), there's a significant difference between Christian beliefs and Christian principles. If you'd said the latter, I wouldn't necessarily disagree, except I'd also note that those principles are by and large not unique to Christians. Deists, atheists, and many others share similar values and live by similar principles. This reality renders your presumed point moot. I did not see it as assasination. You however seem to be fine with taking someones work and saying its your own, then trying to blame me when you get caught. Says tons about your level of character, so this is done. What exactly have I been caught at? Using the word 'panic'? I plagiarized nothing. Since you can't recognize the glaring distinction between "Don't Panic" and "If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive.", it's not surprising that the other points people have made in this discussion are lost on you. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Interesting. Similar studies have been done with Juries and eyewitness testimony. A case is presented where in the primary "evidence" consists of eyewitness testimony from one person. The difference in conviction rates between groups where the witness is strongly discredited: shown to have extremely bad eyesight/couldn't possibly have seen the perpetrator, Vs plausible witness, was very small. Both studies have serious implications for society, and an awareness of our human frailties can help to mitigate them. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

1) You explicitly stated Christian principles. Are you going to deplete your credibility meter by denying that yet again? 2) Given your own propensity for changing your story, it's ironic that you'd reference the supposed flip flopping of Kerry. BTW thats a line in the Hitchhickers guide to the Galaxy. Is it? I'm only familiar with the "Don't Panic" bit. It's a vaguely similar sentiment, but not at all the same quote. I am passingly familiar with the book, but have never read it. If that quote is in the book, cite the page, please. Otherwise apologize for insinuating that I've plagiarized. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

And where did I say Christianity? I said Religion. Ron: It's clear in your first post, #9 in this thread: Ron's busted That you're specifically referring to Christianity. Just in case that's not proof enough, you again state it quite clearly in post 39: crystal clear. Is the fact that you've dug your own grave on this why you've resorted to insinuating that I plagiarized a quote from Douglas Adams? When you can't win the argument on merit, try character assassination? No worries, it doesn't bother me. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

If you enjoy fixing things, have at it. However, if your goal is to save money, you're probably going to be disapointed. Replacement parts are costly enough that you're most likely better off buying a new one. I recently fixed my mom's dryer, but it cost me a over a days labor and $200 in way over priced parts. A new heat element, some cheesy plastic slide "bearings", and a spindle/washer thingy that should have cost about 25 cents. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Ignoring the side argument of what Einstein and Hawking may or may not have meant, if Hawking submitted anything resembling a *God did it* letter to a science journal, it would be rejected for lack of scientific merit, inspite of his current status in scientific circles. If it's junk science, it's junk no matter who writes it. The above statement is incompatible with the below statement: Once you've decided to take it for granted that this is true, you are no longer practicing science. As noted many times before, you're explaining complex, improbable events with even more complex and even less probable events. Your answer begs the question "Where did God come from?" -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

It should read: Creationism includes the *assumption* that God is ultimately responsible. As such, Creationism has stepped out of the realm of science. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

Just becasue one President says it is not (After the fact I might add) does not mean anything. The fact that the US was not founded on the Christian religion was explicitly stated after the fact, but was implied at our nations inception. It is implied by the calculated, intentional absence of any specific reference to Christianity. Do you think that was a careless oversight? Further, Adams wasn't just "one president", but a President who was also an active participant in the founding of the nation, the treaty was approved by congress, and there is no record of any objection from the general public or any other politicians from the time. Think about it. No one objected to the wording of the treaty. Why? Because it was widely understood to be true. You seem to be arguing that since some of the founding fathers were Christian, than the United States is therefore founded upon the Christian religion. If that's your line of reasoning, then you are forced to also accept that the United States was also founded on utterly secular, even atheistic principles. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

A big ass Guilt trip. Thanks Mom! -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.