ZigZagMarquis

To be honest with you Dan, I don't know if I do or don't feel that body scanners and pat-downs are or aren't violations of our rights. I've been through an airport a couple of times now where they use the back scatter version. Didn't bother me and I didn't get my junk felt up either. As far as liberty goes, agree with you, but I think theirs worse things going on with the direction the federal government is going in this country and the apathetic majority that's enabling it, but that's what we get now that nearly half of the population doesn't pay into the public till and a good percentage of them profit from it... but, again, that's a different story (thread). I just don't get the whole fear that someone's image might get mis-used and the slight chance that some particular TSA agent doing a pat-down is getting a woody over it as a argument against the technology or new measure in and of itself. I do understand that there's a faction that just wants to be pissed off and outraged about "something" and the TSA is a good target. If you want to talk about wrestling authority from the federal bureaucracy, there's a lot of potential for that outside of the TSA, but it would also mean the elimination of entitlements, which would equally and oppositely piss off some of those all bent out of shape over body scanners and pat-downs. So this is a lose-lose discussion at this point, I think.

Yeah, especially if anyone mentions body scanners...

That happened awhile ago and it ain't because of body scanners and pat-downs, but that, as they say, is a different story.

... and maybe you could come back with some tangible suggestions on what the TSA could do to catch the next shoe or underwear bomber?

Okay, MacGyver-ing a nuke out of a paper-clip and some radium dialed wristwatch aside... "letting personal weapons through security"... even as pro-personal-defense-and-the-right-to-bear-arms as I am... my first blush to that is that doesn't sound like a good idea. There's a lot of otherwise decent folks that are way stressed out for what ever reason in airports... probably worried sick that their body scan image is being uploaded as they get a coffee while on their way to their gate... that I don't think them having a gun or knife or machete would be a "good" thing.

Agreed! ... but can we add to that people who get on planes with skate boards and guitar cases thinking such things will fit nicely in the overheads without taking up more then their fair share of space?

Aphid... okay... I'll bite... what would you rather have had them do? Take your word for it? Be an expert on every possible form of swipe card produced or recently produced that may still be in use? Sorry, but you saying its a swipe card to get into an airport and the agent asking if you have your pilot's license is reasonable. You replied you didn't have it with you. That too is reasonable. I'm sure what YOU wanted was that YOU not be inconvenienced, but I can hear your outrage now if a bad-guy had snuck a bomb or weapon past the same TSA guys and onto the airplane you were on when an examination of something the guy working the xray machine didn't understand appeared in their wallet and hindsight showed it didn't result in a search and some questions. Be more careful whats in your pockets next time you go through airport security. If you goof, deal with it. Yeah, similar has happened to me. I got to toss out an old pair of nail clippers with nail file once because I forgot it was in my shaving kit when going through airport security. So what.

*sigh* Again, Bill, I hear your words, but don't get it. What I hear is "that the potential for the damage done by one or a few acting nefariously is reason to demigod the new technology and other new measures/procedures the TSA is putting in place?" Again, why not get outraged when individuals are caught abusing the technology and procedures rather then the technology or procedures? What you and others suggest, I'm sorry my friend, remind me of the attached.

Flexibility is good too...

You're just afraid that they'd be able to kick your ass! ... better? http://thechive.com/2010/09/28/your-t-shirt-is-um-snug-27-photos/?obref=obinsite

Damn IT! I was going to vote WTF until reading this! ... but N@t, your claim is useless without photos!

Again, I hear your words, Bill, but I don't get your point? Up thread, you lambaste and imply that the TSA is too ignorant to use this new technology correctly and apt to be wrought with corruption thus resulting in abuse of this new technology (i.e. leaking scanned images of people into the public domain), yet you suggest this same TSA will suddenly straighten up, grow a brain, institute some miracle education program that will solve everything without anyone ever having to fear having their junk touched or a pseudo nude image taken using a body scanner?

What about plastics that can be used as weapons? Quit being a twit and I will too. No, I haven't read that. Care to enligten me? What "security experts" and how do THEY propose having caught the shoe bomber or underwear bomber? I'm paranoid... y'all are the ones afraid of pervert TSA agents groping your junk or feeling up grandma's boobies or streaming an image of you generated via backscatter x-ray scanner or millimeter wave Radar and I'm paranoid? If that's the case, we both are.

BINGO! And +1 to you for maning up and admiting that profiling is part of the answer here.

Agreed, but as technology advances, why not use it? OMG! Your not suggesting profiling... are you!???!

No. They're not. You're kidding me, right? You've read more about how they work then just on dropzone.com, right?

I'm not being veiled about it at all. I'm trying to get him to say what he would do SPECIFICALLY if not body scanners or pat-downs to keep someone from getting on an airplane either inadvertently or maliciously with a weapon? Still haven't heard that, but have heard a lot TSA bashing (which I agree there's A LOT of room for) and I've been told I'm ignorant. Yeah, I know, logic doesn't work on some. In fact, in and of itself, it offends many. ... and a magnatometer is going to find, what... METAL... what about other threats?

Okay, got it, so now you're down to insulting me rather then trying to explain your point as I continue to not understand how it is you equate a millimeter radar wave generated image of you would offend you that someone else would look upon it? Good job trying to get someone over to your side. (NOT) Anything else that you know better for me that if I don't instantly agree with I'm ignorant? OBTW... you're previous post DIDN'T... how would you SPECFICALLY stop folks from getting knives, razor blades or guns through security without moving to body scanners? Okay, I stand corrected on one of your points, so I did go look see what Adam Savage had to say. So, TSA goofed, big time. Adam went through a body scanner and someone somewhere got to see his body scan image (which somehow you see as offensive as someone taking a shit on your grandma's grave... but anyway)... but they missed the razors he had in his kit. I've experienced similar, I'm just not a celebrity that can get on TV... good point, what the fuck TSA... BUT again, what would YOU do different? I could hear you explode similarly if the requirement was for everyone to empty the contents of their luggage, carry-ons, pockets, etc. and have a TSA agent spend 10-20 minutes going through it in detail. Ya know, there are a couple of other ways around this, but they're not very PC...

I'm implying that your choice of occupation has rendered you clueless about why others have issues with their naked image being in the public realm. The white collar world is pretty uptight, and these things can be harmful. Merely having tattoos can be harmful. [sarcasm] OMG! I didn't know that!! Thanks so much! I am a white collar worker and I do have tattoos!! Its now so clear why things aren't going well for me at work!! Thanks so much! I'll warn all my co-workers TOMORROW that also have tattoos! I suppose I should have a conversation too with those others that have piercings and what about the few that have piercings, tattoos and are openly homosexual... I suppose I should just convince them to quit now and take up a career in reality TV, huh? [/sarcasm] * rolls eyes * Anyway... okay, so if not metal detectors, body scanners and/or aggressive pat-downs, how would you stop folks from overtly or inadvertently getting through airport security with edged weapons, firearms or explosives? I get it that you and others don't want a "nude" image of yourself in the public domain. I would agree that I wouldn't want one of me either... but I doubt anyone would find it more than humorous... but but what I don't get is your perception (extension ?) that a pseudo image of a person created using microwave Radar equates to a nude image created by taking a photo of someone naked using a film or digital camera?

I'm hearing your words Bill, but not your point, still, sorry. So you're saying the folks at the TSA will abuse this technology because they have a track record of doing so? Okay, I'm not going to disagree or argue that against you, because I can't / don't disagree, but what I'm not getting is what you think should be used or done as an alternative to body scanners and/or aggressive pat-downs, since y'all find that so offensive or wrought with potential injustices or infractions of privacy? Maybe the outrage should be if / when the TSA blows it again in the future and such images are leaked out or show up on TMZ or what not, the outrage from the public should be those TSA agents and their supervision aren't fired on the spot as opposed to the predictable government bureaucracy that may likely impede that? Anyway, this thread has been fun. Fun has been made of the TSA. A sport I too engage in. We've seen the bashing of Bush and the Patriot Act... a ritual to some here. What now? How about some posts of alternatives to prevent another 9/11?

Cool. Please post your travel plans so we can pay extra attention to the news those days and watch YouTube for the security cam videos to show up!

So the fact that TMZ might pay for a body scanner image of what ever doped out pop-tart of the day is, is an argument against body scanners? Okay, what I'm not getting from you kelp and DSE is if not body scanners and not aggressive pat downs, then what? I'm sure y'all don't want another 9/11, so what would you propose instead? OBTW, kelp, you're saying if I were of a certain occupation or reputation you'd listen to me as opposed to another? Which occupation or reputation would you listen to as opposed to not? Come on, that's just silly. DSE, okay, so you want to "have some fun" when you travel. Fair enough. When you get pulled out of line because you've got one of those "fig leaf" things hidden in your shorts and you get the "special" treatment... man up and don't act all offended when it was you that pulled the pin on the grenade of your little joke. Bill, so the folks who misused the body scanners / images wound up in jail? ummm... problem, where? You're not talking about the incident where a bunch of TSA agents had to go through the new scanners as training, got to see the images of their co-workers, ended up picking on one of the group over the size of his junk until he went postal on them? I'd say that's an argument regarding the caliber of folks the TSA hires and/or how they conduct their training and not against the technology. What am I missing in what you're trying to say?

Good point and those responsible should be punished justly and not that the images having been leaked reason to not use the machines. Also, in how many of those cases of leaked images was the I.D. of the person associated with the image? OBTW, y'all understand we're talking a Radar generated image here, not a photograph.

What does what sort of job I have got to do with anything? *Confused* What potential consequences do you think I'm dismissing? What violent incident over what problem?

Or perhaps we should remove the terrorists from the earth to be safe? Anyway, I hear what DSE and others are saying, but one of their twists in (what I think I hear) they're saying is fear and uncertainty that their images after going through a body scanner... which I doubt even one's mother would recognize and their name / boarding pass isn't associated with... might become public, thus "violating them", they're opting for an aggressive pat-down which they then come away from certainly feeling violated?