diverdriver

Replying to No Ones post in general......but...... Ok, this thread has totally fallen into freefall drift now but I'll continue..... If the average windspeed during freefall is 60 knots then you will drift about 1 nautical mile during freefall. That "45 degree angle" will be achieved fairly quickly since the jumpers are now in drift. It DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE GONE ANYWHERE. You have to look at horizontal seperation and the only way to achieve that is RxT=D. Rate over the ground times Time equals Distance seperated horizontally. Now, just print out the table I posted, ask the pilot what the current (actual) groundspeed is on that load on short final for jumprun and figure it from there. It's just as hard to teach someone to truely look STRAIGHT DOWN as it is to teach them to judge a fourty five degree angle. And I believe it's harder than people make it out to be when we're flying crosswind jumpruns. People think the nose of the planes always points to where you're going and that's not the case. At least if they're counting out loud others on the load can slow them down if they are counting too fast. Or at least try to. In this whole debate we have been looking for the simplest ways which will almost always produce the widest safety margine on exits. Flat flyers before Free Flyers will always work unless you are going downwind. If you are doing downwind jumpruns the operation should be smart enough to make the change. So load the plane that way. Counting out seperation is the easiest way once the groundpseed is known to get proper seperation. No 45 degree estimation. No eyeballing the groundspeed (what if I give extra altitude? The angle change will be different and it will look like we're going slower. You can eyeball that change? You are more manly than I.) All of us here have the same goal in mind. Skydiving Safety. That is the key to this whole thread and am glad to see all the thoughtful posting. Quincy? Shit, you've got the whole county to land in and someone will give you a ride back. But here's a concept: look down during freefall and pull a little higher. Whooow! It is too bad that guy didn't go to manifest and complain. I would have liked to be on that one. Most people have no concept of real seperation. I here it all the time and just shake my head. "Well, that's the seperation we were using yesterday and it worked." That's like landing downwind saying "Well, that's the direction I landed yesterday." ;-) Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII www.DiverDriver.com

Ok, remember you have to figure first: what altitude are you at. Just because you indicate 90 doesn't mean you're doing 90 knots. Huh? It's call KTAS (Knots TRUE Airspeed) and it has to do with Density Altitude. Huh? Basically an Otter on jumprun at 13K indicating 80 knots (what I fly) will have a true airspeed of about 100-105 knots. If there is no wind then that's what you're doing across the ground. Now, your 30 knot uppers. Are they on the nose? Crosswind jumprun will produce a different groundspeed. So don't get too hung up on doing the mental calculation on the ground. Just ask the pilot what the groundspeed is off the GPS and you can go by the table. But....answering your question....30 knots on the nose would have a ground speed of ABOUT 75 knots. Does that help? Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII www.DiverDriver.com

Bahahahaha....LOL...Been there. Yah, GPS is a tool. Tools break. But a good craftsman never blames his tools. I think my grandpappy told me that. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII www.DiverDriver.com

Groundpseed 100 knots or greater = 5 seconds between exits Groundspeed 90- 100 = 8 seconds between exits Groundspeed 80-89 = 12 seconds between exits Groundspeed 70-79 = 15 seconds between exits Groundspeed 50-69 = 20 seconds between exits Groundspeed less than 50 should have at least 25-40 seconds between exits. The lowest groundspeed I saw in the Otter was 17 knots. We were doing 45 seconds to 50 seconds between groups. That was truly funky. The highest groundspeed I've seen in the Otter was 155 knots. Plus we were doing a world record climbout which took 35 seconds from green light to actual launch. That took a little convincing to get them to go on the green light. It didn't matter where we were over the ground as long as I knew where they wanted to exit. The GPS would count it down to exit point. Worked like a charm. That little GPS also gave me the ability to announce over the PA what the seperation should be using that table. The only problem I ever had would be that people would count to that number and then start their climbout. Which when you're over 100 knots across the ground hoses everyone behind the second group usually. But I digress from the original thread here. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII www.DiverDriver.com

Nothing you can do? Complain! Complain to the load master, manifestor, pilot or DZO and if that doesn't work then leave! If the almighty dollar is all they care about and are ignoring PHYSICS then they really don't understand shit about aviation. I have spent my entire adult life involved with aviation safety and you don't want to hang around people who stick their head in the sand on safety issues. Please don't accept the status quo. That's why I ended up creating my website because I was frustrated with people dieing and had to try and do something about aircraft safety. Your money is not worth as much as your life. Take it from someone who has too many friends barried in the ground. Vertical seperation is not enough to keep these groups seperated. Horizontal seperation is the only thing that will keep you safe in skydiving. Chris Schindler www.DiverDriver.com

I don't know. It's the price of four otters but it can easily do the work of four otters. Plus it's a tailgate which itself will be a draw. I'm thinking given the right operation I bet it could be done resonably. Chris http://www.DiverDriver.com

And it is that concern that I will never allow free fliers out first without a huge, and I mean 20 second or greater, seperation between the last free flier and first flat group. Also, I try to do crosswind jumpruns mostly to also help the horizontal seperation when possible. Free fliers think they are the only ones flying little canopies and it isn't true. I see a lot of free fliers dumping at 3,000 or much higher because of the potential crazy mal they can get into with them. Flat fliers I see are still going to the old altitudes of 2,000 or above and now we have the potential for disaster. Just because we haven't had the collisions happening really up to this point doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Either you miss and you survive or you hit and you're dead. There's no "small" mistake on this issue. Flats first, freaks last, unless you plan on pulling above 5,000 then the freaks go before you. Chris Schindler http://www.DiverDriver.com

I have a freefall drift simulator on my website. YOU get to enter the windspeed and the exit count. You will see a graphical display of seperation vertically and horizontally. The simulator is courtesy of Professor John Kallend of IIT. Freefall Drift Simulator Chris Schindler D-19012 http://www.DiverDriver.com

The Buffalo DHC-5 is a totally different animal. It's bigger. It has a "T" Tail and comes with turbines already. These are turbine converted Caribou. Not a bad idea for a jump plane. Wonder if anyone could make a turbinebou work? Chris Schindler http://www.diverdriver.com

I believe that was the 205 at Homestead you refer of. Static line student hung on strut as aircraft stalled. I'm sure the rest of the load got pinned on the ceiling and with CG that far out of wack was unrecoverable. The Cessna 205 that crashed in Celina, OH is said to have had a CG aft of the limit when the first jumper left the plane when the engine quit because they leave from the front of the aircraft. I don't have exact numbers for that. I'd have to refer back to the NTSB report. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII http://www.DiverDriver.com

Different planes need different speeds on jump run. It may also be that you don't want this pilot flying any slower. Their skill might not be up to controlling it any slower. But to answer your question. Yes, it can be flown slower under certain conditions. So, don't run back to him saying well this other pilot says it can be done and then get your load into trouble. You can check out my website at http://www.DiverDriver.com and I have a section I wrote about flying the 206 with jumpers. This may be of assistance. But again, if he doesn't feel comfortable going that slow then don't force it. It may cause more trouble that will be regretted later when the plane does stall on jump run and causes damage. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII http://www.diverdriver.com

Care to enlighten me? I got called back to Ottawa early from California with the other otter. Was none to happy to get back to see 30EA sitting with a tarp over it. And it didn't just "catch fire". It was set on fire. You think you know something then I suggest you let the FBI know your feelings since it is still an open CRIMINAL investigation. As for how many aircraft I believe it's five. I was in Calgary when it was being put back together from different hulls. Out back of Rocky Mountain Aircraft is the "Otter Graveyard". If you're ever out there ask George to show you some pictures of what happened to the hulls discarded out back. Take a walk around and see how it is possible to screw up in an Otter. It's a bit sobering. On the lighter note, it was funny as hell to see that thing going together in the back corner of the hanger while other aircraft were getting routine maintenance done in the front. It really was like a mad scientist project back there. I'm glad to see it flying even if it is ugly as hell. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII

Yeah, and you can lie about your background, get your dream football coaching job with Notre Dame, get found out, and then be embarassed on national TV. Great idea. Sorry, I get people who claim all kinds of flying time in their logbook and it takes me two seconds with them to find out they are lieing. But, maybe planes are different than computers. Chris

You know what? That's about the best idea I've heard. Allow the link exits to the door frame, don't worry about single file, and up it to 15 or 20 ways. That would be really cool. Chris

What would you say to this idea? Keep the start line the same. Get rid of the single file rule. When there were DC-3s flying it I imagine it was pretty hard to exit any other way than single file. The fact there are benches will cause most of the team to come out of the otter single file anyway. The first person across the line starts the time. Let's take into consideration that we use otters now and the door is wider and that can add some unique exiting styles. I think the trouble with the rules is that we're trying to make an otter into a DC-3. But if we view the event as otters flying and go from there this could be an exciting and totally fun event again. Kind of "View the glass as half full rather than half empty" thing. It's a matter of perspective I guess. I liked what Tim Wagner had to say about 10-way. Chris

Oh why am I doing this to myself? Ok, I just read Skydiving's article or "review" from Bryan Burke on Nationals 2001. I participated in 10-way on STL-TFX (Team Funnel). I was disheartened by the comments (similar to comments made by many others) that 10-way should go away from Nationals because there is always a protest and it "always" seems to come from the same person. 10-way was described as a "relic" event from the seventies. I enjoy 10-way very much. We describe it as the "Gladiator" event of skydiving. It had more participants (110) involved than all the "Free" events combined. So how can it be suggested that it be dropped from competition at U.S. Nationals? It's a "relic"? Well, I believe classic accuracy is older than 10-way and it's still around with many fewer total participants. (I'm not suggesting we get rid of classic accuracy before you jump on me). I really feel that the judges and others that have suggested that it be dropped only want to avoid the perceived inevitable confrontation with one participant. Is that fair to the rest of us that enjoy that type of competition? Did they drop Tennis from the Olympics just because they didn't want to deal with John MacEnroe? Of course not. If anyone of importance or decision making power reads this, please don't take this event away. It's fun. It gave me a chance to experience the U.S. Nationals. I have no plans to enter any other event. But I got to go to Eloy and have a great time and see a lot of friends from across the country and make new friends. And what other event could allow me and my friends (the first three out the door had a combined age of 172 and the average number of jumps per jumper was 1,000 which is low compared to other teams) a chance to go up against the top names in skydiving and be competitive? We're a bunch of weekend warriors and we were 8 seconds total after six rounds behind the third place team. We were totally happy to take 5th. Does that sound weird? Please, don't take my event away. I am USPA, right? My voice counts, right? My dues matter, right? My entry fee of over 100 bucks plus jumps matters, right? Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII http://www.DiverDriver.com

Maybe not a special rating but associating it with the D License might be a good start. Then, if further regulation is needed then we could go further. There is certainly a lot to know not only in personal safety jumping camera gear but also safety for the subject too. Hopefully the new camera flier will be well versed in these areas when beginning their vidiot life. I tried to suggest that jump pilots should have a special endorsement or rating for flying jumpers and got jumped all over (on wreck dot). I would imagine that you would find certain resistance to making it an outright seperate license for jumping camera. Should it be a license? I respectfully say NO. I don't think it needs to be a seperate license at this time. We have too much trouble with the ISP right now to try and create something new for video people. Chris Schindler D-19012 never have jumped a camera http://www.DiverDriver.com

Mike, Maybe my criticism was misplaced or I thought you were talking about something else. Maybe I can clearify. A jumper can misread the ground just as easily as a jump pilot can misread a GPS. It's choosing that exit point that is important and then making sure the aircraft goes over that point in a way that jumpers can exit there. Jumpers SHOULD look down for other aircraft and to see where they are. But if they don't know how to judge what is going on with the aircraft and winds aloft then they should get someone who does know to assist them. I believe that person CAN be the pilot if they have enough experience. I would even suggest that I have a better "Bird's Eye View" using the moving map than a jumper leaning out the door. I have information on ground speed and track (to judge the true wind direction and strength), and pinpoint accuaracy of my current position. I also have information on time to my exit point so I can judge when to turn on the green light. Knowing what the ground speed is can be very important in the spacing of exits. I can tell you right away what spacing should be instead of what I see some places doing of adjusting the spacing ONLY after the first load comes down. Jumpers SHOULD ask the pilot where the jump run starts and what to expect so they can clarify or modify what the pilot is going to do before departure. I feel there is a misconception among jumpers that the pilot can only track to one point over the ground using GPS. Using a moving map you can judge position using many different points. I have not "programmed" a waypoint in four years using my GPS. I spot jumprun as though I was actually looking out the door at the ground. That's the beauty of moving map GPS. I hope this will clearify some of my views on spotting and use of GPS. If not, feel free to email me. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII http://www.DiverDriver.com

Ok, how the heck can you blame a friggin GPS? Was the door open? Did you look down? A GPS doesn't turn a light on or open a door. That communication street, my friends, goes two ways. Did the jumpers ask what the spot was before they exited or did they check the winds aloft themselves before they went? And excuse me, but I've given a jumper a perfect spot before with my GPS and he still landed out a mile and a half on a night jump and broke his leg. This is probably an overreaction on my part but it's a personal pet pieve of mine to blame an inatimate object (GPS) for having a bad spot. Let's get facts before posting speculation please. Chris Schindler D-19012 ATP/CFII http://www.DiverDriver.com

Well, big ups (that's kudos to you non-hipsters) need to go to Christy West. She does all the updates and layouts. I tell her what I want and give her the info. She makes it happen. Self taught web creator. GASkyGirl@hotmail.com is her email address. She deserves a pat on the back too. Chris Schindler http://www.diverdriver.com

No shit. I flew the first weekend of Summerfest and then jumped the rest of the time on the bigways mostly the second weekend. Well, until I hopped in to fly the trail plane on the last load. Chris

Gotcha now. Well, I appreciate the points. Keeps my thread alive and people viewing it. You're right, the site is geared towards pilots. But, as jumpers get into this more they tend to thirst for knowledge. If they don't get something they can always post on the forum that is on my site. That's what it's there for. It's all about education. I'll try to do better when I announce the updates here to include more explanation for non-pilots. Thanks Paul, Chris

You're right about the confusion. Which is why I put up those letters. Did I confuse the issue more? That was certainly not my intent. Email me with how you think it should be modified. It would be a nice help. This site is going to be built from a lot of people's experience and expertise. Chris Schindler diverdriver@hotmail.com

I believe that if you ask nice and talk to the right people that they would supply that information. I know that Airtec has supplied info like that in Fatality cases I've been involved with. It will even supply info on exit altitude, fall rate, initial main deployment, cutaway altitude, and yes, where the cypres actually activated at. Ask nicely now. Chris

Hey, nice site yourself. Wow, I bet that kit plane is fun. Is it flying yet? I didn't realize you were at SDA. I think I know a few people down there that have visited SDC. Cool. Chris