JackC

When was the last time you saw a cow driving an SUV?

Oh sorry, I didn't realise it was my personal responsibility to single handedly save the planet. I'll get onto that straight after I've had my superpowers installed. At least I'm not in denial.

What are the other causes of global warming? Cow farts, for the most part. Well obviously, I can see how 1.5 billion farting cows would out-pollute 6.5 billion humans flying about in jet liners and SUVs.

What are the other causes of global warming?

What makes the film political? The presenter? Sounds like a case of republicanism über alles to me.

Easy. Just claim it's your religion and you get an instant and unquestionable level of respect that any regular whackjob idea couldn't ever hope to achieve.

And after all that, Philh's argument turns out to be correct. So what was your objection to it again?

Dude, I won't shoot the messenger just because the message doesn't make any sense. It's a simple question really: assuming you have faith, do your works affect your entry into heaven? It's a yes or no answer.

OK, you show your salvation through works. So without good works are you really saved at all? The fact that James had to explain to the "saved" that they needed to behave in a certain way definately suggests that being saved doesn't automatically mean works will follow. Nor does it imply that works were required for them to be saved since they had already been "saved" despite their apparent lack of works. This is again in contrast to James's comment that faith (salvation) without works is dead but in agreement with Paul's statement that you are saved by faith not works. In short, much like this post, the whole faith/salvation/works dogma is incoherent gibberish.

Right, so being saved doesn't depend on works. I quote "He wasn't instructing them how to be saved. He was instructing them how to act now that they have been saved". Wasn't that Philh's point?

So does Paul's version of "saved" rely on observing James's version of "religion"? It seems to me from what Paul wrote, it doesn't but James's comment that faith without works is dead suggests otherwise. So we aren't much nearer to clearing that connundrum up and were back to the idea that works may or may not stop you from entering heaven but without faith you're definately stuffed. Something is definately arse-about-face here. I still contend that considering the Bible is alledged to have been written with divine inspiration, the lessons contained within are so obfuscated and contradictory that it cannot be what it claims to be. At the very least god's ghost writers were grossly incompetent.

Boris Johnson!! Hey at least he has comedy value.

No. Tony Blair and his cohorts have done so much damage to the UK that it will take decades to fix, if it's even possible.

Dear god, please keep your sheep off my porch. Amen.

Well I to have my finger prints, iris scan, DNA profile, turban contents and god knows what else put into an FBI data base, just for daring to set foot on US soil. You wont catch me within 1000 miles of the place on general fucking principle. Nosey bastards.

Are you sure? Lots of people through the ages have taken the Bible literally and used it to justify slavery, killings and all manner of atrocities. Even now, there is still quite some disagreement on how literaly the Bible should be taken between denominations. I'm sure you don't need me to give you examples. Perhaps you should write the definative, parable identified Bible for all those poor cretins who have an IQ less than a 10 year old. There are plenty of them out there.

Fair point. For the most part JC seems to have been a cool bloke. But from my atheist POV, Biblical literalism is an easy option for criticising your POV. The problem is, which bits do you take as parable and which bits are literal? I take none of it literally and if we both shared that view, I'd have to get a new hobby.

Not really Steve, as an atheist I can safely assure you that I don't take any of the Bible literally. Or seriously. Or with a cup of tea. Actually, I can't take it anywhere. It makes my skin sizzle.

It's the irony of Matthew 19:26

Thanks Steve, that should keep me busy for a while. I have seen studies that show religious beliefs reduce, for instance, the likelyhood of depression but increase the likelyhood of panic attacks. The psychological effects of religion is a pretty complex issue which doesn't universally seem to make things measurably better or worse for the individual. To my mind that fits with the placebo model, not the "God exists and intervenes in our lives" model. Your milage may vary depending on how hands-on you think god is. For society as a whole, the story is very different I'm sure.

Which article did that study apear in? I can't seem to find it from the partial reference. http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/vol284/issue13/index.dtl

According to the Bible, I can't save myself by being a nice guy, no matter how decent I am I fall short in Gods eyes. I could put Ghandi to shame and I'd still be fucked. The only way I can save myself, is by accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour and bowing down before God. It doesn't matter if I'm the biggest genocidal maniac the world has ever seen, if I do that I'm God's new best mate. That my friend is arse kissing at it's most basic level. The Mafia use similar tricks, it's known as a protection racket. Says who? Your book, that's who. I've yet to see any real evidence that the stakes even exist. He hasn't otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. We obviously have different standards of proof by the simple fact that you believe the Bible is evidence enough of God and I think the Bible is evidence that the people who wrote it believed in god, not that god exists. If the "evidence" is only acceptable as evidence when the reader believes what it seems to show, it's not evidence at all, merely salesmanship. Look, I just cannot believe the unbelieveable without some credible evidence. It's not in me to suspend rationality for long enough to buy into this stuff without it. So if I find out that the Bible was right all along when I die, it will (as you point out) be God's fault. God made me the way I am and by sitting on his divine arse and not producing some credible evidence he will be directly responsible for me going to hell. In those circumstances, I think I'd be justified in punching the sadistic fucker in the mouth. You even admit in the lines above that to a skeptic the evidence "will look doubtful if not outrageous". To risk repeating myself, if the "evidence" is only acceptable as evidence when the reader believes what it seems to show, then it is no such thing. Agreed. You are quite welcome to believe anything you want but I reserve the right to call bullshit if you tell me I should believe it too.

Whereas Jesus prefers a dogs butt

If I found a paper that claimed to contain a new theory on global warming, medieval golf course management, or indeed any claim of not insignificant magnitude, I would expect it to withstand a certain level of scrutiny. The bigger the claim, the higher the level of scrutiny. The Bible's makes an extraordinary claim of the highest magnitude (ie. that a perfect God exists and he loves me yet I'm going to burn in hell eternally if I don't kiss his arse) so I expect the Bible to withstand the very highest levels of examination. Moreover the book is supposed to have been writen under the guidance of the very omnipotent, omniscient god the book claims exists. The circular reasoning of the biblical claim alone doubles the need for suspicion but if the claim is true, the Bible should easily withstand such criticism. Clearly it doesn't. I doesn't even meet the minimum standard to be considered a coherent story. Your standards are obviously very much lower than mine.

You believe in Jesus? Well, I believe in Thor. Your god died nailed to a cross. My god has a hammer. Any questions? An atheist was walking through the woods. He said to himself: "What majestic trees!" "What powerful rivers!" "What beautiful animals!" As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charging towards him. He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again and the bear was even closer. He tripped & fell on the ground He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him. At that instant the Atheist cried out, "Oh my God!!!" Time Stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to cosmic accident." "Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?" The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?" "Very well," said the voice. The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke: "Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen"