cssriggers

Just as an FYI - I had saved a query about this from the Jan 2002 issue of Skydiving magazine for reference, as people frequently ask about main loop length/tightness. According to TK Donle of RWS, a Vector packed "hard as a brick" - very tight - requires less than 15 lb. That's pull measured on the bridle to untuck the bridle, open the flap and pull the pin. Average = 10 lb, loose but not too loose about 8. If the bridle is clear and flap is open, just removing the pin took 2.5 - 5 lb; 7.5 lb with the hard as a brick rig. Also according to TK, a modern pilot chute at terminal exerts about 80 lb of force. Sandy Reid from RI had similar numbers - 10 to 15 lb. with flaps closed and bridle stowed away. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

WOW - that's a lot of force! I have never, in my experience, seen a closed main container that needed more than 11 to 15 lb of force to pull the pin. I've defied people to shorten their closing loops as much as possible .. to the limits of their physical strength to close the container. Pull force on that pin was always less than 15 pounds (usually more like 5 - 11 lb.) In our experience, most main pins we see in our loft can be pulled with 3 to 11 pounds of force. Tight closing loops are GOOD. And if you can close your rig under your own power (you should ideally be sweating and cursing) your closing loop is the right length. Closing tools like the "pack boy" simply give you a better grip, and are easier on your hands than pullup cords. They don't provide a magic leverage or torque solution, unlike "positive leverage devices" used by riggers. (No, don't torque your main container closed.) Bottom line - if you can close your rig by hand (and this includes using a main closing tool like a pack boy), your PC will be way more than able to pull your pin. We worry a lot more about loose closing loops ... Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Go ahead and blame it on me. Please. I can take it. I'm fairly new to the forums, and was trying to do some posting, plus some PM'ing ... and at the same time my husband was watching a bizarre David Cronenberg movie while I'm listening to some hardcore old Ministry ... ...and we were probably both having impure thoughts, while trying to interact with dz.com, for chrissakes! And then the whole thing just crashed. So it was my fault. Please, blame me. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Does anyone have a good source for it, for rigging purposes? The online sites I've seen have all been selling it for medical purposes - range of 5.5 to 9.0. We'd like some for testing harness webbing for possible acid contamination. Any input and advice would be greatly appreciated! Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

We charge $45 -any type of rig (including student, tandem, pilot, Racer, anything.) Includes new reserve and main closing loops. $20 extra to replace a Racer quick loop. $10 extra for a reserve with ZP topskin. $20 rush fee for same/next day service, or close to a boogie, if out of date. People still have trouble understanding this sometimes, but we have to maintain a reasonable loft schedule. No extra charge for repack after reserve use while at our DZ. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

... and you DID set the record, immediately. And then ... didja have some fun? Those dual diamonds looked awesome. You guys are amazing, and I'd like to welcome you back to CSS anytime. Thanks for the downplanes (sorry about the lost shoes ... but come on ... can't you guys hold them any longer than that???) It was a special weekend. Come back, and bring more guys with you next time. You dogs ROCK!! See you this fall in Florida. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Thanks, man - what an awesome post!! You've done the sport a great service. What a coincidence ... I just discovered the joy of Ace silicone 2 days ago. We've used many brands in the past, and bought Ace last minute to prepare for our July 4 onslaught. This is the nicest, cleanest, driest silicone I have ever used on cutaway cables! Thanks also for advancing a positive conception of reserve slinks. All in all a great post. Many skydivers will be safer because of this. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Patent laws. As I understand it, Brian patented his airlocks, and this gives him the sole right to make, use or sell the idea (i.e. the PD Vengeance.) Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

No. In my opinion, any A-or-above licenced packer who doesn't pack for themselves is paying their money (or asking a favor) and taking their chances. Students and tandems are another matter, as are obvious packing errors. Luckily I don't really have to deal with this much, as we have AWESOME packers. We've had two tandem cutaways in about three years, all due to long snivels. Unless there's an obvious packing error found on a cutaway main inspection, most mals aren't very clear-cut packing errors, in my opinion. Line twists, tension knots, even line-overs (especially on tandems) - who knows?? I know sloppy packing can cause them, but I've seen all three happen to very careful, experienced packers. A lot of stuff can happen - very fast - during canopy deployment at 120 mph. Read the orange warning label on your gear ... parachutes can malfunction even if properly maintained, used, packed etc. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

We like to get them all ready to bag, then go nuts weighting them down. Then we go off and work on something else before coming back to bag and close. By this I mean get it all flaked out down on the floor, narrowing folds (more narrow than a usual reserve helps,) clamp the folds well, then put weights over the entire canopy. When I first started packing MZs I would weight them overnight .. then they would be quite docile going into the bag. In any case, be slow and careful and keep control of the canopy. It also helps to have good climate control in your loft. Packing an MZ in a cool, dry environment could be challenging. I imagine they're no fun if you're sweating either. If you normally don't use a molar strap, I wouldn't start using one with an MZ ... but that's just my opinion. Good luck! Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

I used to be very nervous about pull force and tested and re-closed every rig. Then I got more comfortable with assessing the pull force by how the closing went , how easily the pin would move, etc ... but I would still usually test them. Now, we have Dave Dewolf's excellent pull-force tester. It's a little metal device that fits into the last flap grommet and around the ripcord above the pin. It allows the pin to move enough to test it with our scale but stops it from coming out of the closing loop. Quite ingenious! Para-Gear sells them. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Well Sid, interesting how I had alot of respect for your rant and reviews...but now with this back stab at the reflex guys with nothing to back it up...you've just lost a few notches in my book. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play nice children. I got your back, Sid. My three main rigging mentors will not pack Reflexes with Catapults either. I obviously cannot name names here, but PM me if you want more info. All three are prominent, highly regarded riggers - two are Masters who work for major container manufacturers (but have extensive experience with all types of systems) and one is a quite prominent DPRE. One of them won't pack Reflexes at all, though I don't understand his reasoning on this. Also a lot of garden-variety senior riggers I have met (I would say most) will not pack a Reflex with a catapult. The one thing I REFUSE to pack is a Rapid Transit rig with the handles reversed. Evidently they got the bright idea at some point to put the cutaway on the left and reserve R/C on the right. I've actually seen one of these, and refused to work on it -- imagine if it was loaned to a friend!!! We do repack many rounds with mesh from the acid era after pH and tensile tests, mostly for pilots. Sport rigs with rounds (very few,) only if they have a full-stow diaper. Even then, we try to talk them into getting a ram air reserve. We have one pilot customer with a 24' round mf by Mills Manufacturing that we repack - DOM 1964. The canopy is beautiful and pristine, never used and in storage for some years, and our favorite DPRE was on hand for a boogie the first time we saw it. and gave it the green light. It's in better shape than many rounds made in the 80s and 90s. We absolutely love Racers and are a Racer-friendly loft, but we won't pack Safety Fliers - after talking with the manufacturers, who recommend relegating them to car-cover status. We still do pack a lot of original Swifts, and occasionally get saves on them still -- sometimes even stand-up landings if you can believe that!! Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Was the tube stow "joint" placed in the middle of the knot? I would not have expected the tension to be able to pull apart the tube stow there if properly assembled. Good question! We tested "installed" tube stoes in each of the three configurations (regular tighter, tightest.) 20 lb. seemed way more than enough force to stretch the stow so that the "joint" was no longer in the knot area around the webbing, and was free to separate if need be. The overlap area in the construction of the stow seemed to allow for this. Again, our methods were unscientific, but they were enough to convince me that tube stoes are safe enough to recommend them to our customers (we have used them for years.) Enough tension to hold the lines well, but willing to come apart if need be. But feel free to do your own experiments ... In my experience, 20-25 lb. is more force than most people expect it to be. Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL

Would the bands bought from PD be mil-spec rubber bands? I don't know - you'd have to ask them

First of all, apologies to the original poster for being so off-topic. Your first response from slotperfect was great, and agrees with what I have always seen/understood - one small, tight (non-locking) stow with all the rest looser will result in a slight hang-up of your main deployment bag, which could result in line twists. Your goal should be good retention of the lines, and even tension and length side to side. In a word, symmetry. I've always been confused about all the various line stow products & methods controversy. I have double stowed small rubber bands many a time on microline, HMA and Vectran when I am beyond the cascades and a single stow seems too loose. I sometimes triple stow large rubber bands in the same situation. I've scale tested the release forces on all, out of curiosity. Never had a problem, and I pack a lot of mains. Obviously if you have large rubber bands and small grommets, double-stowing locking stows could be a huge problem, especially with tandems. On a sport rig, it's impossible to make generalizations unless you know grommet size and rubber band width (for instance, our student rigs have four locking stows. Sometimes, depending on the fit of the canopy in the bag, we double stow the outer 2 locking stows. The grommets are large, with thin rubber bands. No problems in thousands of jumps.) I personally like tube stoes very much, and it is simply untrue that they don't break (actually they usually pull apart at a seam.) They are easier on the packer's hands, last longer, are easier to change (debatably) and the theory is they are less "wear and tear" on lines since they "roll" off. (Not sure how I feel about that - we've never seen rubber band line damage in our loft.) If you are like me and have heard various positive and negative comments about various stow products and are curious, do what we did. Some rainy day, take a fish scale or force-tester, and TEST them!! First, test the product iteslf until it breaks, then "install" them on a fixed object, just like you would on your dbag, and see how much force it takes to break them. I was surprised to find that in our (admittedly unscientific) testing, tube stoes came apart either simultaneously or with a little less force than mil-spec rubber bands (20-25 lb.) Some other stows on the market took more than 60 lb. of force to break. Of course, whether you have mil-spec rubber bands to begin with is another story ...

I'd disagree, and think that the person who's seen Racer riser cover undone probably knows his stuff. I believe he did say it was older gear. That being said, riser tuck tabs come open in freefall, too! I've seen that many a time. Also main pin cover tuck tabs, especially when people are in a sit. Anyway, I was very impressed with the new Racer dual-tuck riser covers when I first saw them. At PIA it was evident that they keep improving the design. I'd say they're definitely freefly-friendly, though I still think the Mirage/Micron main pin cover is the best design out there for freefly. But having your reserve pin(s) both covered and against your back has its merits. I *LOVE* to pack Racer reserves. I also loved watching one save my husband's life a time or two, once a very very low reserve deployment (long story, but I'm glad he didn't have an AAD at the time.) Had my heart in my throat, but that thing was open NOW.

I used to when I didn't have a permanent loft. Now that I do, I have a specific place for each tool. At the end of every pack job I verfiy that all the tools are back in place. Some hang on the work bench, some are on a shelf and the others are in specific drawers. Unless you have something setup of this sort, I would recommend some type of check list. I have one if you want it...but I'll have to dig it up out of one my notebooks...it's been awhile since I've used it. Mike Amen. I can walk into my loft and know within seconds if packing tools are safe, sound, accounted for and in their respective places. I think about tools all day long when we are busy, since we occasionally let people borrow a wrench or whatever. I keep serious mental track due to habit of all my tools during the repack process, but no longer count. Actually starting out I didn't count, but used the "out ... in" checklist. This is an awesome tool and better than simply counting, IMO. Another thing we do, and this is kind of personal, is to never assemble a reserve to a rig and then immediately pack it. The need to thoroughly inspect brand new gear is a given. After assembly I NEED to have a fresh set of eyes look at the thing before I proceed. This is not because I doubt my ability or the manufacturer - I have heard horror stories of misassembled reserves from really good riggers! I don't care if I have checked continuity 1000 times and looked at all the bartacks ... I want a concensus, damn it! This might well be this guy's last chance ... The bottom line is, we are all human ... riggers too. Humans make mistakes. Show me a rigger who has never made a single mistake, and I strongly suspect he is either not being truthful or will make one soon. Show me a rigger who has made a mistake but caught it before it left the loft (because of good loft practices and policies) and learned from it ... this is a rigger I will trust.

Hello - We've inherited your basic 50# fish scale at our loft ... would prefer a better "proof" test scale that would STOP at the measure of the breaking (pulling) load, and measure up to 100#. We're having trouble finding one. Any suggestions? We noticed that Dan from Atair had some pretty impressive instruments at our DZ earlier this year ... if anyone can help, please post or e-mail. Thank you! -Dawn Alpha Mike Foxtrot, JHL