kimemerson

and it's a six cell? Am I seeing that right? How many other ram air canopies were even numbered cells? What other than 5, 7, 9 and 11 cell are there for skydiving specifically? (Re: the 11 cell. I once packed for Patrick DeGayardon when he was jumping the only 11 cell thing made for him by Parachutes de France. It's the only one I've ever heard of.)

Quote We're chasing each other around on the forums today, eh? /reply] Sure seems like it. Who knows who will show up, and where, these days?

First, go to the Ranch forum http://www.theblueskyranch.com/forum2/ and look for the car pooling part and ask there. You might have to register to post but there you go. Second, we have quite a few folks from that part of Connecticut so getting a lift back could actually be easy. Just don't quote me on that. Stamford is about an hour and a half from the Ranch, but there isn't much in the way of direct public transportation, so even if you can't get something lined up before you get here, I would bet that asking at manifest could produce results. If you feel particularly familiar with fellow skydivers, look at the Ranch site Round Up page (under the "Skydiver Central" link on the home page). That's a listing of all members (we used to be a club) and addresses & phones #'s etc. Look up someone from New Jersey or NYC area and ask for a lift from Newark. They won't hurt you if they consider it rude; they just won't jump with you. Or maybe they will anyway but you buy the beer. Making a Ranch member feel you've been rude to them takes some talent so I wouldn't worry about it... unless you've got some great talent in that department, in which case I say give 'em hell. It wouldn't surprise me to learn you were rude and they bought you a beer and a slot as a result. You could also call the Ranch to inquire before you fly out. 845.255.9538. We're planning on superb weather that and every weekend so things should be just fine for your visit. And when you get here, ask for the Lounge. That's the Sportsmen's Lounge. Tell them I sent you. good luck

It is neither a joke nor a stir-the-pot post. It is a question posed for the sole purpose of initiating a discussion which might educate someone. I did not say I oppose PLFs. I asked a question and asked for discussion. The question has been posed on the DZ from time to time and I felt it was a good question. So far there have been some very good reasons posted in favor of them. When a newbie asks the question, it might be a good idea to have an answer. Is it an entirely stupid question? Please note I was not advocating anything one way or another. I was initiating a discussion. To that end I succeeded. I jump a Stiletto 120 because when I bought it it was the scariest state-of-the art thing available and now I can't afford a new toy every thirty seconds when they come out, and I can still scare the shit out of myself on that puppy. Color me crazy, but I am not one of those desperate consumers who must, must, must have the latest thing. I can live with my Stiletto 120.

Just putting this out there for discussion: How relevant is a PLF considering the descent rate & glide ratio of ram-air canopies as opposed to the rounds when a PLF was vital? Why do we teach how to land straight down when we don't land straight down anymore? With the glide ratio under ram-air canopies the opportunity to do a PLF is nil. Not a clean, good PLF, anyway. Momentum and trajectory alone will negate the chance to even try. So, why? Why not focus on good landings rather than plan for a bad one, especially one that won't really have the characteristics which would necessitate a decent PLF? After all, having a plan B is planning on failing plan A.

Are we talking demos or landing out? Or bandit jumps? Or all three?

Can I get an Amen! I started packing my own while still a student. Still do. Always have. Most I did for myself in a day was 16. I've watched people scratch from a 20 minute call because they couldn't pack and I don't mean first year wonders. No excuse for that Hiring a packer because you have the money is one thing. But you better damn well know what the packer is doing and should be able to do as good a job. Maybe not as fast, but as good. Anybody who can't needs to get on their knees and start building up the pack job numbers and let the jump numbers take a rest for a minute.

Back when I had just under 200 jumps I was traveling the country and hitting up a few dzs as they popped up. Small ones, out of the way unknown places... When I got to one such place in one of the Dakotas (very beautiful place, as I recall) they asked me how long I was going to be there: 'Just passing through. One jump." That was met with disappointed looks. Then they asked if I would at least spot. I said I'd give it a shot but, "I've only got about 185 jumps, all ram air canopies mostly from Otters and a Porter." They felt reassured right away. "At 200 jumps you're the 'experienced' skydiver here. Sure you won't stay?" Now I'm sure these very fine, decent people had only safety in mind and would never consider anything remotely unsavory or dangerous. But in my pinion they just seemed ill equipped to pull it all off and after landing, packing the first Zero P canopy they'd ever sen (a South-African thing called a Reflex. Oh, the memories!), I wished them well and hit the road again, only to get to another place in Montana somewhere where, when I phoned to see if they were operating that day they answered my question with the question, "Are you coming out?" "Well, are you operating?" "Depends. Are you coming now?" "Does it matter?" "Yes. If you'll come we'll send for the plane." I made their day and we all made the one jump of the day before I hit the road again. That Montana DZ wasn't necessarily unsafe. Far from it. I think it was BJ Worth's and Hod Sander's home DZ. But I just like the tale.

Not much of an excuse when for the most part Guy could have been dead on accurate and still be entertaining and the whuffos would be none the wiser. They wouldn't know either way and to have been more accurate would not have affected their interest in the movie. For example, no whuffo would have known that the Knights compete in 8 way, not 10 way. Sure, I suppose speed star comp. is a tad more exciting than turning points, but not necessarily and in this film it hardly made a difference. So why tell lies when it doesn't really move the plot forward any better than telling the truth? One doesn't simply play with fact solely because no one would know. What it does in effect is make the skydivers moan and laugh and ridicule and the whuffos start perpetuating more untruths and maybe even get into skydiving based on untruths. How many people got into skydiving because of "Point Break" only to find they actually had to have instruction, couldn't talk in freefall or did not in fact have a two minute delay from 4 grand? In "Point Break" all the skydivers in the audience laughed at all the inaccuracies because we knew what was wrong with the skydiving. But unless any of them were also surfers, we had no clue what was accurate or exaggeration, with that part, but because we saw the liberties taken with what we did know, we could suspect the same with the surfing. From my perspective it cheapened the illusion and I was no longer able to suspend disbelief. Granted, that's the insider's dilemma. But I did appreciate the in joke of having Bill Booth grab a Javelin. Only a skydiver would catch that and in a sense, it was a nod to us, a gift, maybe even an apology for all the other nonsense.

And a real kicker regarding "Cutaway" and how full of shit it is, is the fact that one of its writers and its director was Guy Manos, who either should have known better or was trying something that made knowing better a moot point. Personally I loved the part where Berenger practices tracking, while standing, in front of a mirror, complete with a grunt from so much energy required, I suppose. My friend and I watched that part about five times just to be sure we saw what we thought we saw.

Well, I'm a cold wimp. It's still a tad too early for me. I'm also very sick right now. And it's also a busy weekend. So, no, not this time. Ralph is mostly dangerous to himself. Like every time he jumps. But at least he has the gear, a variety of gear. So maybe if you could use his stuff someone a little more reliable might be able to look it over for you. Yellow Andrei can certainly give you guidance. Ask at manifest for his number. Jimmy would be the best, but like I said, he's sort of out of town at the moment.

At the Ranch you need to hook up with Ralph the "Beast", or Russian Andre (tandem master), Jimmy Leonard when he gets back from Iraq or Afghanistan - wherever he is, maybe Mike Shatalov, Jimmy Mathiason. Don't know about any vintage boogie though it's something I've wanted to organize for a while. Ask Joe Richards for more suggestions.

Well if it's an organized thing with parameters for who qualifies then by design it's a closed club and in a sense I would defend the right to do so even if I lament the practice. If that's the case I stand corrected.And, yes, either I misunderstood or there was that lack of clarity or I just should have investigated further. For speaking out of turn in that regard I apologize to Jerry. For the general sentiment, however, I stand firm. I don't know who among you knew Tom Craighead, who passed not quite a year ago - it'll be a year in about two weeks - but he was Istel's rigger back at Orange, helped Istel found the first club in NY before skydiving was even legal in NY (hence the move to Orange). Tom would tell me stories and I sat riveted. It would have felt like a great injustice to have been excluded from his stories. Frankly I want to jump at Good Hill some day. To me that's hallowed air.

Jerry, Howard has told us of these reunions in the past and so far I have not noticed - maybe I'm going blind - that he ever called it the "Pioneers Exclusively" reunion. Certainly he might not have posted in a manner whereby the whole planet can learn of the upcoming event if it was meant to be a private affair. "Don't tell anyone, we'll just post it on something with the name WORLD WIDE in it." Are you saying that by having anyone with a D# with triple or greater digits is cause enough to lose pride in having one with single or double digits? And when is the demarcation between 'Pioneer' and everyone else? The sport in its modern version is nearly 60 years old (using Istel, Sanborn et al at Orange and even Good Hill & Northern Westchester in NY State as a starting point). I see that you yourself have only been at the game for a mere 40 years and have four digits after the D. How is it you feel qualified to be a pioneer if you got started upwards of 15 years after Sanborn's D-1 was issued? I started jumping in '89. In a hundred years I'll be seen as a pioneer. You're going to make me wait, aren't you? Sorry to hear you've lost your pride. Must be like losing religion. I don't mean - and I hope I do not come off as meaning - to be disparaging of your comment, or you. I apologize if I am taken that way. I'd just like some understanding because essentially, your comment could well be taken as disparaging of anyone who came after you. While it may be that those who came later are not so called pioneers, many of them have made huge contributions to advance the sport so we certainly cannot suggest that anyone who is not in your league has nothing to offer the old timers. (If you don't object to being called "old timer" as a way of distinguishing you from us.) I'd wager that even you have grown in the sport because of some of those contributions. But with only 1,000 jumps in 40 years that may be hard to gauge. I think it is a good and even important thing for the newer generations to mingle with the older. The sport still has many of its original members alive and active. It won't be long before that changes. How better to understand what went into making this a sport for subsequent generations than by allowing the mixing of the generations? Perhaps there is simply a desire for a certain camaraderie among the elite but it seems counterproductive to me to isolate the old from the new. As it is we move too fast and wind up going about the sport with less and less respect for the original skydivers and all they did. I think a little exposure to these people and their stories is vital to the future of the sport. You certainly wouldn't wish to foster any disregard for the accomplishments of the 'pioneers' would you? And what better venue for this sort of exposure and friendliness than to have a "Pioneer's" reunion at which even the kids are invited? Please don't feel like you have to shut access to this rich resource once you're in the door. Such elitism is unhealthy for everyone as it is for the sport. Please reconsider your position. With all due respect, Kim

And you call yourself a skydiver? It's a rite of passage for skydivers to see Fandango. It damn well ought to be part of any reputable FJC. It IS an FJC for christ's sake!

The South African 8 way team trining in DeLand in maybe 1992 jumped them. We used to be sure to run out to watch as jump run approached just to count the inevitable mals. Guaranteed a minimum of two per each 8 way jump.

Just a guess because a guess is all I have: I imagine the feeling you get in an elevator or roller coaster could be because the vehicle you're in (elevator or roller coaster car) moves away from the body at first while the body remains where it is until it catches up to the vehicle. At first, your body isn't even registering the movement or the vehicle leaving the scene. In skydiving we are dealing with gravity immediately and it is our bodies doing all the moving. Or something like that. Just a guess. How'd I do?

I always figured humans did something wrong that the birds got the wings and we were grounded. So I started jumping off everything I could climb; garage roof, grandmother's back porch, trees, anything. Then my father taught me how to do a PLF even though he had no reason to know. I practiced everyday for a week. This let me know that a human could leave an airplane and land safely in order to do it again. That was about 1957 or so, around the time the word "skydive" was coined. But as far as I knew it was only for the military. It took me till 1973 to learn a civilian could, then 10 years of marriage plus three more after the divorce before making my first jump, twenty years after that and I'm still here trying to set right what the birds got and I didn't.

Like any good argument this one is full of entangled threads and unconnected parts. Is it moral? Is it legal? Is it an impairment? Is it fair? Is it equal? Well, the one thing that could change in our lifetime is whether it is legal. So, what if it were legal? What changes? Do you draw the line if someone has a single beer before jumping? (It's legal and one is not likely to be an impairment. It could, but it isn't highly likely.) So if pot became legal, what changes in our outlook? And for those who have little or no experience with it, yet have an opinion, how do you know? As for those who do have the experience of 420 24/7, can you argue objectively too? I'm just putting some questions out there. Don't have the answers myself. Carry on.

It is entirely likely that that Reflex was Willie Boetchers's. They came out as a response to the Sabre and were not as silky. More crinkly. I bought Willie's as my first Zero P and came to rue that decision. It was a 143, I believe. I once packed it like I would a Sabre (no nose roll & tuck) and the opening slammed me so hard it broke both center 'A' lines. I considered chopping it but I had a round (Phantom 22') and was over a lot of trees. I was young and no one had mentioned anything like "square, stable'. steerable & slider down (4 S's). It seemed to be flying ok but what I didn't notice was that it was sinking more than it was flying and it had no flare. Rather, it had a collapse. So I thudded in and possibly broke my ass on that one. Reflex was made by PISA I believe. Rickster was indeed jumping his Sabre at the Nationals in Muskogee. We called it the sherbet because of the colors. I remember the sweet sound of 550 micro lines whistling above. It was a new sound and at first no one knew what it was when first hearing it. The year was 1990, the last year the Nationals were at Muskogee. It was also the second year of the WFFC at Quincy and I remember Rickster landing among the vendors there too.

John wasn't jumping a Sabre in '86. No one was. They didn't come out with the Sabre till '91. The Excalibur was the PD high performance canopy before the Sabre and it was made of F-111 though a couple were coated with a prototype zero P-3 material, rather than impregnated with the zero P as is the norm now. Rickster was one of PDs test jumpers and so he had test Sabres well before they were released to the public. In '86 I can't even say John was jumping an Excalibur. I think they didn't come out till maybe '88, didn't last long due to a few troubles, and taken over eventually by the zero P3 Sabre.

Well, my old friend 'Ster was one of the first to jump a Sabre. I remember at Quincy, maybe 1990 or '91, I was walking through the vendor's area and I heard the new sound of micro lines whistling damn near my head and I prayed it was Rickster because no one else I knew belonged where that sound was coming from and only Rickster was going to not hit me. He landed, turned around and laughed. That man is a gift.

Just a guess, would it be Rickster Powell?

Being affected by someone's death is good. You're a human with sensitivity toward others. Thank you for that. But may I offer that what we do is, among other things, celebratory. We celebrate being alive, life itself, the pleasure of living, the joys living provides. There's a good chance your friend was after no less. Maybe your next jump could celebrate her life. Give her a good jump. Kiss the sky for her. Kiss her goodbye. I wonder if she would feel any better knowing her death kept you grounded. Go. Take her along and make it a two-way. Also, as you likely already know, skydiving can be therapeutic. I know it got me through a lot of shit in 20 years. It is highly likely you now need this jump more than you have needed any jump. It may, in fact, be one of the only times a jump is needed. Don't lose your feelings for her, for the living, and for death and life. Theses are vital to keep. But allow these to help you carry on in the way you know. And good for you that you came here to talk it over. This shows you're willing and able to find your way with and through us, your family. Skydive!

Tao saying: "The only failure is the failure to try." Something I heard:"Failure is not falling down. Failure is staying down." There is no failure so long as they don't quit. And as with anything new we are trying to learn, we need to practice, practice, practice. How can there be failure on one attempt? Two? I never allowed my students to fail. I maybe didn't always allow them to move on so fast, but I never allowed them to fail. That word was stricken from our vocabulary.