katzas

Looks like Aerodyne just raised the price of the NexGen harness and container significantly. Dealer price without options was about $2240.00. Since the price increase it's $2475.00 (source, ChutingStar web page). Don't know why--and don't know if it's a smart idea unless other manufacturers do the same thing. That extra $235.00 puts the Icon close to more expensive stuff like the Mirage or Javelin Odyssey. By the way--the Icon includes a lot of things that other manufacturers charge for as options. While the bare bones price for rigs like the Mirage may look comparable, when you add in all the stuff that the Icon comes with as standard--well--do the math yourself.

One flaw in the 70 jump break even point (renting vs buying). That's 70 X $25 = $1750 PER YEAR. So--if you jump 70 times in the first year of your skydiving career it costs $1750. Do the same number in year two and it's 2X or $3500.00. At the end of the first or second year all you have is a stack of rental receipts and not a rig you can re-sell if you wish. I don't know of anyone who has taken a $3500.00 hit on a two year old rig when he sells it. Now--if all you ever do is 70 jumps in your life--well that's another story.

Well--good question. Could you put a pouch like a BOC pouch on one side of the main canopy container? My first ram air rig had a pouch on the right leg strap but the bridle was exposed and held down by velcro. Never had a problem with it--and truth be told I liked that location better than the bottom of my container where I can't see it and it takes an awkward arm motion to reach it. How many vids of students have we all seen where the student is groping around trying to find the hackey? But I digress. That doesn't solve the AAD issue though because if the AAD fired and cut the loop the bridle is still attached to the pilot chute that is in the pouch. Not pretty.

Yup--I have firsthand knowledge of pilot chute hesitation. Jumping a Para Commander I pulled and expected to feel the familiar tug. Nothing. But I could feel something tapping my back. I looked over my shoulder and saw the pilot chute lying on my back flipping back and forth. A second later it caught air and took off for a normal deployment. No big deal--but a lesson learned. I just figured a reserve could be opened with a hand-deploy pilot chute just like the main--but I get the message with regard to an AAD deployment. You need something to drag the reserve out of the container if your AAD fires. Well, live and learn.

Can anyone shed any light on why we still use ripcords to open a reserve container? I cut my teeth on ripcord opened mains waaay back when and can readily understand why the hand deployed pilot chute for a main is superior. But having said that, we still use ripcords for reserves. Why?

Not sure this will help because it's about a reserve--but--I contacted the manufacturer of Raven canopies about this very issue. I received a prompt reply from the president of the company stating that he, as a master rigger, would not agree to sign off on any canopy that was about 15 years old or older--and he also said that many other riggers would not pack or sign off on a reserve of similar age. So--a reserve sees comparitively little use compared to a main. I suspect the service life of a main would be much less than the reserve life.

Good observations. However--and this is a BIG however--try finding compatible and in good shape used HC, main and reserve when you are six one, 210 lbs and a conservative pilot. Throw in that the life of a canopy even if only moderately used is 15 years or so (have a letter from a major manufacturer that says they wouldn't pack any reserve older than that). I have been looking for about a year and a half for the right stuff. I did find a couple--BUT the price for that used gear was so close to the new prices it didn't make sense to buy used. As to ongoing maintenance costs---yes--repacks twice a year will run you between $100 and $150. A Cypress requires 4 year returns and will cost about $250 each time. Burn a hole in a canopy and it will cost you to repair it. But, as some of the other responders pointed out--there is more to the decision than pure numbers. Ultimately, the decision to buy all new vs used also has intangibles like fit, knowing that the stuff on your back is new, it fits, and you know where it has been since your last jump. If somebody can find used gear that is cost effective and perfect for him or her--fantastic. I haven't been able to do that hence my decision to make it all shiny new. BTW, i did order a new Icon NexGen a couple of weeks ago--and since then Aeordyne raised the price by about 10%. I got in under the wire--and Aerodyne just gave me a little gift when it comes to resale.

Thanks for the info Rob. I had the usual, "did I order the right stuff" feeling but, from what I have read about Icon's stuff (at least the recent comments) I think I made a good choice. By the way, Aerodyne just raised the price by $235.00 on the NexGen. I got my order in under the wire so Aerodyne just gave me a little gift when it comes to resale. I lived for quite a while in TO and did most of my skydiving at Gananoque with Tom. Back then I was jumping a Rapid Transit and a Wizard (Bill Gargano design like a Comet). First "square" jump was on a rental Stratocloud there.

Your response and others made me chuckle. I learned on the rope (static line). Exit altitude was 2800 ft. After many jumps and practice pulls I got off the rope--and my first freefall jump was from 3500 ft.--a hop and pop. I don't think I saw the ground after exiting the airplane until my canopy was open--I was kinda busy pulling. Good advice from lots of folks here--follow your training, listen to your instructors, and just do it. I bet, after it's done you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Have fun.

Not sure this belongs in this forum but what the hell. OK--so you got your A and now are faced with the age-old question.....keep renting or buy? Never mind the used vs new--for the purposes of this post I will assume new stuff. A complete rig, main, reserve, harness and conatiner is gonna cost around $6000.00. OUCH, right? Well, maybe not so much ouch. Rental rigs--one size fits none--with canopies that have seen a lot of jumps cost around $25.00 per jump--less if you can rent by the day--but not much less unless you can cram a shitload of jumps into one day. Now--let's talk resale. (I'll get back to rent vs buy in a minute). Spend $6000.00 today and probably sell it all for about $4000.00 to $5000.00 a year or two later providing it's all still in good shape--not to mention that new gear two years from now is probably going to be more expensive so your resale will track that. Renting gear costs around $1000.00 for 40 jumps and for VERY used gear. Starting to see my drift? The new gear layout is high--BUT--the resale is too. The new gear fits you like a custom made suit. So--you need to put between 40 and 80 jumps on the new stuff to break even with the rentals. Not hard to do in one year--or maybe two. Anybody see any flaws with this?

Put everything (including jumpsuit and helmet) on in your living room. I know--you'll feel kinda stupid--but--close your eyes, arch and find your pilot chute handle over and over and over. When you have that down do the same thing with your cutaway and reserve handles. Keep doing it until you can touch all of them ten times in a row without missing. Then, when you get to the DZ do it again--maybe fewer times--but do it. The skygods will snicker--but who cares. The rig you were jumping may have all those things in slightly different places--and fumbling around while spinning under a malfunction is no time to discover that.

Thanks for the info. I too have not tried one but I ordered a custom a couple of weeks ago. I got the magnetic riser covers, chest rings and a skyhook. The main problem I find with a lot of harnesses is that I tend to hang from them rather than sit in them. Read a few reviews that said the Icon tends to put you in a sitting position more than other harnesses. Another reason I decided on Icon was all the stuff that it comes standard with (stainless, articulated, chest rings, spacer foam etc.) for a reasonable price. I added all the stuff the Icon has as standard to the cost of a Wings, Mirage and even an Odyssey and even the cheapest rig came within spitting distance of the price of the Icon. They do have a longish delivery time (12-14 weeks) but since I won't be jumping again until July of this year it doesn't matter. I received acknowledgement of my order from Icon the next day If that is any indication of their customer service I think I made the right choice.

Haven't decided on a main yet but whatever it is will be in the 210 range. Looking at the Pilot, Sabre2, Silhouette. Will demo jump them before I decide. My reserve will be a PD 193.

Anybody out there using an Icon NexGen? Curious about how it stacks up to an Odyssey. I am going to order one of those in the next week or two along with a PD reserve but no main yet. Gonna demo a couple or three including the Pilot, Sabre2 and one other to be determined before I buy one.

CURRAHEE!!

Olden days, eh? Well--here's a dose of the REAL old days. Military surplus B-4 backpacks with ripcords and double shot capewell main releases, no cutaways, Corcoran boots, "French" boots, football helmets for students, belly mounted reserves, every canopy was round, minimum of 100 jumps to jump a 7-TU modification (look it up), PLF on every jump or you get hurt, Para Commanders were so-called "death traps" (minimum 500 jumps to jump one), moving the reserve to your back was a "death trap" making a cutaway mandatory with two release points on your harness, every student did static line training with dummy ripcord pulls, slamming into the ground five times in a day was about all you could handle......BUT, the parties, the camaraderie, the bon homme, the waiting for the sky to clear, the instructors who actually gave a damn about students....that was there too (thanks Butch Rubb--rest in peace old friend ). You didn't dare call yourself a skydiver unless you got off the "rope" and did freefall. Now? Well, the gear is much better, there are lots more places to jump (if you avoid the tandem factories), squealing girls who do one tandem jump call themselves skydivers, parties are hard to find and if it's too windy, well, home james. Was it better then? Yes--and no. Is it better now? No--and yes. Do I miss the old days--yes. Would I jump a 7-TU today? Nope.

Hard openings are like art. You may not know much about it--but you will know it when you see it. If you didn't have a haematoma that looked like a Salvador Dali painting from your crotch to your knees it's likely you didn't have a "hard" opening. Getting jerked around, slammed and spanked are part of this sport. It isn't a matter of if--it's a matter of when. And about the socks? Wear what feels good. I don't wear any at all--comes from my days as a sailor. Oh yeah--skygods are also part of this sport. Hard openings are easier to deal with. They don't give a crap about your socks and they aren't being condescending while drinking the beer you paid for. Blue skies amigo.

Best reply I saw here. There's advice--and then there's advice. When you're sitting in the harness of an undersized canopy for your weight and experience level--approaching the ground on final and going like a bat outta hell both horizontally and vertically--all that advice about going smaller won't mean a thing because it's your ass that's gonna smack mama earth--not the skygod who sneered at your navigator 280. You can't enjoy skydiving if your either scared to death of landing or lying in a hospital bed. If in doubt, go bigger and more docile--then once you figure things out--change. Steer clear of the skygod's "advice"--they're pretty easy to identify by the company they keep. Find somebody you trust who thinks like you do--and enjoy. Always remember--it's your ass.

Thanks for the reply. I did say that "all things being equal" which means that if I fly a Pilot 230 vs a Pilot 210 being the only difference. My first ram air canopy was a Wizard 7 cell, 260 sq ft. I chose a larger canopy because I like soft landings. However, that canopy would stall predictably, recover predictably and spin me around while losing altitude quite nicely. Toggle pressure was light and the thing would go where I pointed it. I never had an off heading opening--and it never spanked me. Getting back into the sport now it seems that there are few 7 cells around and some of the 9 cells are downright scary. The gear I rented included Navigators of diferent sizes--from a 280 (a REAL truck) to a 210--which was more responsive--but they both set me down gently and on my feet. I weigh 220 ish out the door. The 280 was chosen for me by my first re-currency instructor--and I guess if I was him I would have done the same thing--being cautious. I guess my question was can 20 sq ft at those sizes really make that much difference. Thanks to all who answered.

OK--I am looking at buying either a used or new main, reserve, harness and container. Buying new is no problem--other than the sticker shock. Buying used--total new ball game. Harness and container size for my body AND for the canopies it could contain--a real jigsaw puzzle. My question is this. All things being equal (jumper weight, canopy type (i.e. Pilot) wind conditions, drop zone location) can you really, honestly say that a 210 sq ft canopy will behave significantly differently than a 190? The calculations of comparative wing loading given a 210 lb skydiver under both those canopies yield the following numbers. 210 canopy-- 1.0. 190 canopy--1.1. That's one tenth difference. Anybody have any real life experience with this?

The combination of what you want to do vis a vis skydiving and the geography you express a preference for is a bit limiting. Good AFF course---Z Hills in Zephyrhills Florida. It's not far from Orlando and both the Atlantic and Gulf coast. Accomodation there is inexpensive with either tenting on site or you can rent a trailer for about $30 USD per night. Instruction, depending on the intructor you get, can be excellent. Food is available on site as well as a bar for apres diving. Weather during the time you specify is usually great--if a bit warm There is a tunnel not far away which, while expensive, can cut down on your learning curve a great deal. If you are prepared to sacrifice the preference for seaside locations then I highly suggest Chicago Skydiving Center in Rochelle, Illinois. Instruction is top notch, equipment is excellent. Bon chance.

Anybody know with some degree of accuracy what the shelf life of properly stored F-111 is? I have a 7 cell Wizard with less than 100 jumps on it that has been stored in the container, dry, temp controlled, no UV exposure for about 20+ years.

Check out Chuting Star. Think they are selling them.

Don't let the skygods put you off. You asked a question--and got shat upon from a great height by many. I teach for a living--and the first thing I tell my students in the first class of the semester is that there is no such thing as a stupid question--at least not in MY classroom. Not asking another question because you got crapped on is far worse than having to endure the bullshit from those who would piss into the wind just to prove they can. Keep asking....it may save your life. And for the skygods out there--if you can't answer a question with a civil attitude--go piss into the wind--again.

Skydog. I find it interesting that you say you want to be "treated as a 'customer' not just a skydiver". Funny--I have the opposite view--treat me as a skydiver--not just a customer--the latter being associated with $$ rather than everything being a real skydiver is all about. No offense--you're entitled.