katzas

You know--I hear the message about choice. We choose to jump. We choose to wear a reserve--or do we? The FAA says we must. It also says we must have our reserves inspected and repacked every six months. Why? Well--IMO for good and sane reasons. We choose to use ram air reserves rather than rounds. Or do we? Show up at a new DZ with a round reserve and you are likely to be told--nope--not here. We choose to wear helmets. We use BOC pilot chutes rather than leg strap versions. Choice? Try buying a rig with a leg strap pilot chute. We choose to use three ring cutaway systems rather than Capewells. If you ask why we "choose" to use all these devices the answer is usually--"because they're safer than the alternatives". Oh? I don't remember seeing many serious injury or fatality reports involving fully deployed rounds. Today we see those frequently. Ram air safer than round? Inherently--probably. We "choose" to swoop because we can with a ram air--sometimes that's an incorrect choice. To forestall the accusations that are already fomenting in the minds of the knee-jerk thinking skydivers out there--I do not advocate mandating return to rounds or Capewells. I am simply trying to make the point that we make "choices" because either they make good sense or that we really don't have a choice. When it comes to buying new gear--every rig comes with three rings and boc. The point? Evolution sometimes obviates "choice". Ram air obviated rounds. Three rings obviated Capewells. BOC obviated leg strap. Throw out PCs obviated ripcords. Evolution will, eventually, obviate the inclusion of AADs. I don't know one DZO who does not use AAD/RSL in all student rental gear. I don't know if you can rent gear (student or not) at all without an AAD in it. Why? For pretty damn good reasons. Students fuck up. Experienced skydivers fuck up too. To those that say AADs fuck up too-well--so do BOC pilot chutes--so do three rings--but we "choose" to use them. I wish I could ask every single skydiver who has had his AAD save his or her butt (and why it did) whether or not he or she would keep the AAD or not. Care to speculate as to the answer? To those who say that we should know and practice EP as an argument against AAD--yes--absolutely. The hard deck is the hard deck--reach it with a serious problem and cut away--deploy reserve, right? Then why in hell don't we do it every single time? Why in hell do we continue to read incident reports about low reserve deployments resulting in injury or death? Mostly because we fuck up--that's why. Why do we fuck up even after being trained and practice hard deck procedures? Because we're human.....because we're fallible....because when you're spinning under a twisted main your mind gets fucked up and stops thinking the way it did on the ground when you practiced EP. Spin fast enough and long enough and your mind stops thinking at all....pull 4 Gs for fifteen seconds under a spinning main and tell me about how clear your mind is. There will come a day when skydivers will look askance at a rig with no AAD just as they would today at a rig with Capewells on it. There will come a day when, here in the USA as has happened in many other countries, no AAD--no jump--whether mandated by DZOs or by regulation. You didn't stop jumping because your choice to use Capewells or ripcords or leg strap pilot chutes was essentially removed. Will y'all stop jumping because the AAD choice has been made for you?

http://news.msn.com/videos/?ap=True&videoid=a3345db9-8326-4749-bcd5-07f66185b78b Check it out.

Exactly......couldn't agree more. At the DZ I jumped at (Skydive Nagambie in Australia .. a good dropzone) AADs were compulsory. Might be time everyone followed that. A reserve is compulsory so should an AAD. I remember at ist jump course at bridgewater we were told an Australian champion was saved by AAD. Seems she could not find her reserve handle after cutaway. if that sort of thing can happen to such an experienced jumper it can happened to anyone. obviously the swoopers need a special aad. Compulsory AAds and RSLs would save many lives every year. However you good folk in the USA have a fear about the government telling you what you must do.. but thats a different story. I love the USA and its people by the way.. visit often. but you have a different mindset over there. Grepso--these comments are not directed at you. I just didn't know how to start a new thingie. Apologies to all for my colloquial use of English--but--well--I'm angry. OK--so we have yet another tragic death from (it seems) low reserve deployment--and one in Pepperel a few days ago (cause of that one still TBD). Every time this happens (and it happens too often) the pros and cons of AADs get paraded out and the usual back and forth ensues about would it have.......or wouldn't it have. I recently made a pilgrimage back to my old DZ in Canada. Was happy to find Tom still hale and hardy and still running the place. We had a discussion about AADs. His insight cut through the bullshit with brevity and elegance. "Is anyone arrogant enough to think that they will NEVER fuck up?" Twelve words said it all. We all fuck up at one time or another. Whether it's while driving, surfing, scuba diving or just plain walking down the street. Fortunately, the consequences of fucking up while doing something trivial or non-life threatening are usually small. Fucking up in freefall--fucking up your packing--fucking up by mid-air--getting fucked up from a slam opening--is an extremely non-trivial event. Have you fucked up while at terminal or close to it? Have you tried to kick out your spinning line twists and gone too low before cutting it away? If you're answering these questions in the affirmative you were either lucky or an AAD/RSL saved your ass. My deepest and heartfelt condolences to our departed brother's family. I mean it. But goddam it--I am getting really really tired of reading these kind of incident reports. If you don't give a damn about your own ass--or if you're so colossally arrogant as to think that everybody else fucks up but never you--then think about your family, your friends, your brothers and sisters in the sport. AADs and RSLs aren't perfect--but you sure as hell aren't either. Consider the words of my old friend and instructor Tom --ask yourself the hard question--then shitcan your arrogance.

They say you never get a second chance to make a first impression. Well, that holds true for canopies too. As a veteran of seven cells and rental Navigators this canopy had some surprises. Responsiveness--loaded at about 1.2--makes a Navigator feel like a truck. I watched it open--and while I didn't watch my alitmeter I think it took about 4 seconds from throwing the PC to full canopy. No end cell issues, no spank, no off heading issues...just a beautiful canopy overhead. Pull a toggle and watch it turn--instantly. Go to half brakes and feel it slow down and almost "float" along. Pull the toggles to arm's length and it stops--right now. Keep the toggles buried and it will stall.....but it thinks about it for a little while. I overshot the peas big time in light and variable winds, had the toggles buried and it simply would not stop flying. Fortunately there was a nice little green spot in front of a fence...... So--am I happy with the Pilot? Yes....will it take some time to get to know it? Of course. I think we will be friends for a long time.

You nailed it. This isn't about noise--it's about power. The same kind of power that HOAs use to keep American flags off houses in their developments--or tell you what color your mailbox has to be. Her comment about showing up with 100 folks at the next meeting is the clue. I suspect that even if you could make an airplane totally silent it wouldn't matter to her--she'd find a reason to complain. It's not noise--it's skydiving.....it's "outside the box" activity that doesn't conform to her idea of what's socially and politically correct. Someone suggested "taking the gloves off". While I am generally in favor of amicable solutions--there are some folks who can't be dealt with that way. It's time to play hardball with the cqs and her--she left herself open to that by placing her name on the complaint. Demand that the Colorado AG investigate her financing, her use of "donations" and if any of the donors are taking a tax deduction for contributing and disclose who her contributors are and how much they contributed, if she is using any of those funds to contribute to politicians, her personal income, her own land use and conformity to the zoning regs of her own property, etc. If the AG won't do it then file a lawsuit against the cqs and her personally demanding full disclosure of all her activities, financing, donor lists, bank account information, accounting statements, who she or the cqs paid for what....the list goes on and on. Yes, it costs. But--if she and her PC friends win again--the dominoes begin to fall. The only thing someone with power wants is more. It won't stop with this case. So far, all the pain has been on one side--it's time to make this painful on the other side.

I have nothing good or bad to say about the Wings HC since I never owned one. It is certainly a popular rig and many people love them. However, I did go through the financial calculations of the Wings vs other gear and decided to buy an Icon Nexgen. At first glance the Wings looks like a good deal--and to some it may very well be--depending on how you equip it. But, if you add popular things like cut in lats, hip rings, stainless hardware, collapsible PC, mag riser covers, hook knife, a skyhook (Wings calls theirs a "boost") and do the math you quickly realize that the Wings price is very close (depending on the deal you make with the dealer) to other rigs which may seem more expensive but, in fact, are not. Now, the decision to buy this new harness or that new harness can be a subjective one in that it depends on how it actually feels when you wear it. But the cost is not subjective. BTW, I had a couple of small issues with the Icon order (my fault, not theirs) and the folks at Aerodyne could not have been more helpful. I haven't jumped it yet as I am still overseas. As soon as I return I will--and I will post my impressions in the Aerodyne review section--good or bad. If you do buy the Wings I would like to see your impression of it as well.

Marion is a long way from where a person would need it to go. SSK is in Lebanon. Thanks for the correction. I did use the correct zip code to figure the shipping costs however. I edited my post to reflect the correct city in Ohio.

Oh, so you "well-respected" people get to be jerks to the rest of us? Thanks for letting us know where you stand in that respect. His post was abusive and uncalled for, "well-respected" or not. And yours was just lovely, thanks. If abusive, disrespectful and downright wrong are the measure of a respected man here then I thank my lucky stars that I am not one of that "respected" group. His initial attack on me was unprovoked, malicious, abusive and just plain dumb. Respect that? Not in this life.

Both of your opinions are, shall we say, duly noted. Neither of them make a pinch of crap's sense. I will be at Crosskeys in early July for a couple--three weeks (returning from an overseas tour). Come and say hello.

Heh--but no. I don't have THAT good an imagination. It's amazing how a simple analysis of the true value of an AAD has escalated (or perhaps descended) into such a pissing contest. While it is true that the SSK cost to service a Cypres 2 is $160.00 and I stated a $200.00 out of pocket cost--the highly respected member of the community used that "error" as a means of discrediting me--I suggest checking out what it costs to ship a Cypres 2 to Ohio. Unless you happen to live next door to the service center in Lebanon, according to FEDEX, the cheapest shipping cost including insurance is about $33.00. I used my Florida zip code as the originating point--just to get an average cost. So--my original statement of the real cost of the 4 and 8 year service was within about $7.00 of being correct. Sue me for seven bucks!!! He also makes large of my using "about 12 years" when referring to the life of a Cypres AAD. Mea maxima culpa--in the interest of complete accuracy--a Cypres 1 is 12.25 years and a Cypres 2 at 12.5 years--both distinctions without appreciable difference. Grasping at straws--and mighty thin ones at that. George Galloway's response to me was, indeed, prompted by my question as to the useful and safe life of a reserve canopy. However, it was hardly private. It was part of a larger published treatise on canopy life. As a highly respected and credentialed member of the community I would have thought my antagonist would have already been privy to that treatise. As to it being Mr. Galloway's opinion--absolutely (and one I choose to lend credibility to). I presume that a master rigger with 30+ years of experience in rigging, designing and building canopies is at least as competent and credible as my esteemed critic claims to be. He also states that my post was of very limited value because this is not a common problem--that of overpriced used gear on DZ. At this moment there is a Cypres 2 AAD listed with a DOM of 12/2010 making it about 3.5 years old. The asking price is $1200.00. Presumably, the 4 year service has not been accomplished (it is not mentioned in the ad) because the unit won't be 4 years old until December. Cypress' online calculator pegs the value of this unit at $878.08 making the asking price about $300.00 more than Cypres says it's worth. I know I can buy a new Cypres 2 for about $1300.00. Maybe the $100.00 difference is significant enough to some to buy the 3.5 year old AAD but not to me. Six months or so from now that used unit will have to be sent to Marion for service......at an additional cost of $160.00 plus shipping cost--which beats the hell outta the aforementioned $200.00. The new one at $100.00 more has 4 years before it has to go back for service--not to mention you can be assured that you are the first user. Now, maybe the seller will take less--and maybe he will take $300.00 less which brings that AAD in line with what Cypres says it's worth. That still leaves the issue of confidence....and I can't put a dollar value on that. My original post stands despite my detractor's attack. I note with some interest and amusement that he never, in all his noise, challenged the financial information, the Cypres maintenance intervals or anything else relevant to that post. His only weapon is personal attack, and attempting to discredit my analysis with innuendo and outright falsehoods. I now bring this incredibly long and, no doubt, intensely boring tome to a close. As ever, we are all entitled to do whatever we wish. Buy, don't buy.......but do it with all the information you need.

No--his reply was not "a little bit sarcastic" it was an attack on me--with no dispute as to the analysis itself. I believe I mentioned that I used the Cypres online calculator to determine the true value of that AAD in question. It is a useful tool as you point out. One of the most useful words in the English language is "why". I, and presumably many others who read the attack asked the question, "why would someone go to such lengths to attack a simple financial analysis--a reality check if you will--of an ad that clearly overpriced a piece of equipment" The answer to that question may be that the attacker has a motive that we do not understand. A bit of research reveals a possible solution. He sells used gear. A monger of any product salivates over an uneducated customer. The irony is that at least one potential customer has expressed a reluctance to deal with him based on his response. Education is a wonderful thing. As to your suggestion about beer and make-up sex--I am quite prepared to receive and accept an apology from him. However, carnality goes beyond the pale of tolerance.

Thanks for your reply. You and others like you are precisely why I wrote the original post. In my opinion that particular deal was a non-starter. However, to someone without the underlying information "new in the box" at $300.00 to $400.00 off the going price might seem like a good deal. The choice to buy or not buy is still up to each individual. I just hate to see someone new to the sport get hosed because of the lack of information. An educated consumer--especially when your life may depend on the product you are considering--is the best shield against getting taken by some unscrupulous seller. As to someone deliberately selling unsafe gear to someone--I too would hate to think that any skydiver would do that. There was a day when, if a skydiver did that he or she would be tarred and feathered by his fellows. But--as I wade my way through some of the forum comments--sadly, it happens. My antagonist states as fact that I have neither the experience or credentials to participate in this forum--one of many statements he has made in error. I feel no need to participate in a blowing my own horn activity--but--my first log book documents my first jump from a Norseman made on a very cold day in Orange in March of 1966. You are quite right in pointing out that that same self-appointed judge of who and who is not worthy is, indeed, a used gear dealer. I do not accuse him of a conflict of interest in his personal attacks except to say caveat emptor and to consider the source and motivation of his abusive and undocumented responses. I stand by my original post. Thanks for actually reading and understanding it. I hope more do.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the life of Cypres 2 is 12 years and 6 months. And YES, taking a reserve out of service just because it's 15 years old is simply stupid thing regardless whoever told you that. I stand corrected for the difference of 3 months. Thank you for correcting that. As to the reserve longevity issue--I never said that all reserves should be taken out of service because they are 15 years old. I did pass on information that was made available to me by a master rigger and equipment manufacturer with 30 years of experience and my own opinion with regard to what I would do. I presume that each skydiver will make his or her own decision based on his or her own educated opinion. Believe it--don't believe it--it's all up to you. BUT--use all the information available to make that decision.....and that 15 year longevity issue is but one element of that decision process.

You're welcome. My original post was a pretty simple analysis of the cost of a "new-in-the-box" Cypres AAD with a date of manufacture some time in 2008. The asking price was $1000.00. To someone who is new to the sport (we all were at one time) and perhaps unfamiliar with all the ramifications of what buying that AAD are I sought to illustrate the pitfalls of ignorance that comes with being new. No judgement calls--just numbers and limitations imposed by the manufacturer. For this attempt at education a self-proclaimed guardian of the redundant chose to attack me personally on this blog while ignoring the purpose of my analysis. As a new skydiver you put him to shame because you "got it". Mission accomplished. Thanks for your reply. Blue skies.

Thank you for your praise--although coming from you it means little. Also--thanks for telling all of us that you were sober when you wrote your reply. How can you (or anyone else) tell? I don't need your permission to state what you deign to be redundant information. Evidently over 300 skydivers so far were interested enough in my post to read it including a rigger who works for a major manufacturer and seems to agree with me. The Cypres 2 manufacturer states that it must be returned to the service center every four years until it is 12 years and 3 months old--at which time it must be taken out of service. Your comment, "When the poster makes first hand advice mixed with phrases like "The life of a Cypres is about 12 years", the value of such advice isn't very high." seems to belie your affirmation as to the state of your sobriety. First, I suggest you attempt to read my post again--it wasn't "advice" it was a statement of fact--or are facts not what you deal in? Second, nowhere in my post do I offer "advice". I merely state mathematical and fiscal reality. As to my colorful language in the PM--yes--and you deserved it. Perhaps you object to and are a bit sensitive of an educated skydiving consumer? After all--who among us on this blog are used skydiving gear mongers---including, perhaps used AADS.......hmmmmmmm? My post hitting a bit too close to home? Caveat emptor all. I grow weary of this battle of wits with an unarmed opponent with an hidden agenda. This will be my last reply to any of yours. Troll away--it falls on more and more deaf ears.

OH!! And here I was......worried. Silly me. 80 jumps and a WL of 1.6. Can I watch? Now that I have the sarcasm out of the way......for god's sake do yourself a huge favor and upsize before you strap that rig on again. I did an unintentional low turn on final on a bloody 260 Navigator with a WL of about 0.7 (toggle slipped out of my hand--stupid) and thumped myself into the ground so hard that I heard bells and saw stars. With a WL of 1.6 the chances are pretty good that I would also have heard the snapping of both legs. Take it seriously--it's serious shit.

That was better than facing straight downwind? With a little breeze, wouldn't that have dumped you right on your coccyx? Could and did. But--you learned the PLF dance really fast. I bruised my tailbone and, trust me--you don't wanna do that. There is absolutely no position, sitting, standing, laying down--none that don't hurt for about a month--not to mention using that bruised stuff for other uses--like when you and your GF are getting frisky. If you landed down wind (remember--there was no way to slow the damned thing down) in a 10 mph wind your ground speed was the combined wind speed plus the forward speed of your canopy. A 7 TU would plant your face into the dirt at about 17 mph in that case. A PC would do the same but with a little more gusto--about 25 mph. Come to think of it, why in hell did we do that to ourselves?

Beware the used Cypres ads that state "new in the box". As an illustration of that little trap--there is an ad posted for just such a Cypres--"new"--never been installed or jumped BUT with a DOM of 2008. Asking price--$1000.00. Here's the math. Cypres' online value calculator of used units pegs this one at $665.71. Since it is "still in the box" we can assume that it has never had it's 4 year mandatory trip back home. That will cost at least $160.00 plus the wait time. The life of a Cypres is about 12 years. The DOM of 2008 means that half of that life is gone. Further--it is only 2 years from it's next mandatory service interval or--$80.00 per year for those two years. A new Cypres 2 can be had for about $1300 (with it's attendant 12 year life) with some judicial shopping around. The cost of the 2008 "new in the box" Cypres, when all things are considered, is about the same. Duhhhhh.........

At 100k ft I doubt that there is enough air density to even inflate a parachute much less blow one up.

What's it like? It depends. I jumped 28 ft modified round canopies, 32 ft "low porosity" modified, 24 ft Para Commanders and 28 ft Para Commanders. By "modified" I mean steering slots were cut into the rear of the canopy--and I use the term "steering" loosely. The hottest modification on a traditional round was called a 7 TU. Modifications allowed you to point your canopy in the direction you wanted to go and to reduce or eliminate oscillation of the canopy with you at the bottom of the pendulum. Two panels. seven panels apart were partially removed and connected to a shorter removal of panels along the skirt of the canopy. Forward speed was about 7 mph. At the time a skydiver had to have at least 100 jumps to jump one. Reserve canopies were UNmodified (modified reserves came much later) which really meant you couldn't steer the thing and were likely to oscillate into the ground--which hurt a lot--with an accompanying louder OOF. Then came the Para Commander from Pioneer which revolutionized rounds. It was much more manouverable and had a forward speed in calm air of about 15 mph. Needless to say you had to have a lot of jumps to be allowed to jump one. Landing (depending on size of canopy, modification and weight of the jumper) under a traditional round was usually an almighty thump followed by an exhale of air (OOF)--sort of like jumping from ten feet up. Standups were possible--but rare. Wind limits were MUCH lower--if I recall anything over 15 mph and you stayed on the ground. Jump boots were pretty much mandatory if you valued your ankles. I did seven jumps in one day and the next day I was sore as hell. Spotting was a lot more important. Landing into the wind was a really good idea. Sounds terrible--I know. But, somehow, it was at least as much fun as jumping a ram air. The close of day festivities were MUCH more fun than today. Copious amounts of beer and a bon homme atmosphere that is somehow just not there today.

Just out of idol curiosity, what would a monthly rental cost? I don't work for the Skydive Store so I don't know what it costs. You asked who rents long term--I answered. Suggest you contact them and ask.

The Skydive Store at Crosskeys DZ rents complete rigs by the month. Give them a call or send an email. You can get their contact info from the Skydive Crosskeys website.

These claim 143 degree lens which is located in the bridge between the lenses on the sunglass type. There are goggles too. I guess the only way to find out is to buy a pair. Will post results if I do.

Thanks for the suggestion. I checked with manifest and all trailers are occupied for the season by staff. She suggested a tent. Well, for a week or so--ok. But for longer than that--a bit much. Hotels in the area but pricey for a long stay--Hampton Inn has a deal for skydivers--hundred bucks a night.

Pay no attention to the A license expert about bowling or whatever. Flaring too high is probably the most common student error made. I did it--and 90% of the students I see do it. It just takes time and practice and a couple of thumps on your butt to get it right. Generally, if you flare too high and don't freak out by trying to correct it with going back to half brakes or even full flight the student canopy you're likely using will just come straight down--and if it's big enough it won't hurt much. I broke my fibula jumping a rental and had to have it plated and screwed. My gf brought a canopy and container order form to the hospital and I designed both from my hospital bed. Eight weeks later I was back in the sky. The only fear I felt was as I was on final--and taking my new canopy to the flare point. I remember thinking, "oh shit". But it worked out fine and have never had another problem. Get back in the saddle and have fun.