Bignugget

Right. You are being raped, violently attacked with no provocation, respond in kind. What about this scenario, I see you, you get spooked and run away. I chase after you and confront you. I grab you. We start fighting. You start winning! Can I kill you in self defense?

Where is that link to a video showing Martin starting the fight? Where is the link to a witness statement they saw Martin approach and attack Zimmerman and not the other way around? I know you have 0 ability to provide links in general due to being you....and that no such links exist....so of course the questions are rhetorical. State v. Zimmerman just joins the long line of cases decided incorrectly by a jury.

I wasn't advocating it, I was using it as an example, just to clarify. You may want to re-read my post. *** Locally, we had a case where a couple claimed that they had killed a man who had broken into their house, and claimed self defense. The police were skeptical, though, as the deceased had been stabbed and the body was in the front hallway, but there wasn't much blood. Also the guy had been dead a while before police were called. An investigation revealed a large bloodstain on the sidewalk in front of the house, which someone had tried to wash away with a hose. It turned out the guy came to the house to buy drugs, but when he didn't have enough money he grabbed the drugs and tried to run away. The wife caught up to the guy out front and stabbed him, then she and her husband dragged the body into the house and staged the "home invasion". Both the husband and the wife were on probation after serving time for drug dealing. So, should the police have just taken their word that they were defending themselves? Are you outraged that the police actually checked out their story, and found that it did not hold up? And in TM/GZ case, the police investigated, their investigation thrown out in the court of public opinion. A trial was set up, and when all the evidence that the police had was shown to the jury an acquittal followed. But apparently that still isn't enough. Now their are calls for civil cases, death threats and bounties have been given, etc., etc., etc.,... Apparently in some cases it doesn't matter if the police do their job. It's part of the reason why I'm asking the question. Here is one for you: In your neck of the woods a home invasion was caught on a nanny cam of a burglar beating the holy fuck out of a woman in front of a kid (knocked her unconscious twice) and then threw her down a flight of stairs into a basement. If she had a gun, would she been justified in shooting her assailant? And if yes, at what time during the attack would she have been justified in using it? And if no, how would you suggest she defend herself, assuming that you believe that she has the right? The system worked as intended in the Zimmerman case, the jury just got it wrong. Happens all the time. http://www.innocenceproject.org/ There is no 'guiltyproject.org' since people like OJ and Zimmerman and Anthony don't typically advocate FOR conviction after the verdict....but you get the idea. Of course you have a right to defend yourself, in a manner in line with that of the attack as mentioned already.

Or who could forget http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/31/us/florida-police-shooting/index.html Blasting 15 rounds at a 60 year old man.....oh yea...and only hitting him twice. Nice.

In the minds of MANY, Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms. If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake. Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR. But the cops aren't proficient with their guns. The required level of training is pretty low. Often it's only semi-annual or annual. And "qualification" is often slow fire, from a standing shooting position, at single stationary targets. Many civilians practice far, far more often, and use far more realistic training techniques (shoot and move, multiple targets, rapid fire, moving targets, ect.) The local PD trains at the range I'm part of, and I've observed it a couple times (as a range officer helping the PD set up and such). The range also offers a discounted membership to police officers to allow them shoot on their own (all kinds of shooting, not just training with duty pistols - some are hunters). I've seen the cops shoot. A few are very, very good. Most are adequate. Some are pathetic. Using cops as a metric of shooting skills and assuming that they are the best out there is naïve. And wrong. They should be. You aren't required to pass any kind of tests, realistic or not, semi-annually or annually. I know you claim to train, and be supremely effective when compared to police...and who would know better besides you. 100 million of you running around armed is even scarier than the cops who still suck and hit random women in the ass after training and passing tests 2x a year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant One of my favorites. Cop mounts kid surrounded by other cops and pulls his gun out and shoots the kid in the back CAPTURED ON LIKE 5 DIFFERENT VIDEOS. He gets found guilty of manslaughter, and is out of prison and a free man after well less than 2 years in jail for killing a kid. Awesome.

In the minds of MANY, Police should be some of the MOST PROFICIENT of all citizens in the use, and in their judgement of use, of firearms. If the most proficient is that, then putting guns in the hands of people like RUSH and Gravitymaster is REALLY a mistake. Proof of concept....the fact we murder more people with guns than any 1st world nation by FAR.

you guys just listened to the winner of the fight, and went on your way. I think there is more to the story than what the winner says. I am still waiting for the video of how the fight started showing Zimmerman walking back to his truck thinking about flowers when Martin springs from cover. I know you cant provide it, but hey Zimmerman said it went down that way....so I am sure it did.. ..after all what does Zimmerman have to gain by lying? ...oh yea....his freedom.

Especially the part where he got the 911 operator in on the coverup, eh? and then he quickly threw himself backwards onto the concrete and into a tree to get the injuries, along with paying that neighbor a Benjamin to testify about the ground and pound TM. Your ramblings are so laughably easy to dismiss...even more than a year later. GZ made up his cover story in mere minutes. And he's a fucking moron. Wait....the 911 operator saw Zimmerman stop following Martin? I don't claim there was no fight. I claim there were no witnesses to how the fight started.

What are you basing that fiction on? The increasing number of jobs, better than expected economic growth and increased international trade? I'm not saying the US is great by any standards, but your statement is just ridiculous. You should write for The Sun with that level of fantasy and hyperbole. Russia, China, Iran and Syria & India are no longer trading oil in the US dollar and its just a matter of time before other countries follow their lead. Without the Petrodollar the USA is screwed. http://www.usdebtclock.org US national debt has been growing at $1.94 billion per day since September 30, 2012. Its a debt that can never be paid back and its only a matter of time before those that lend the USA money decide to raise the interest rates then hyperinflation and dollar crash hello. Are you this worried about the UK? http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html You guys are a lot more leveraged up than we are.... The USA is the USA's largest debt holder. I don't think we are gonna 'raise the rates' at which we will lend to ourselves any time soon.

Which would help explain why gay guys are only 1/2 as likely to be obese as hetero guys Wendy P. I'm a guy and I've slept with my share of pigs. Nailing a 300 pound fat chick is something you do because either (A) you're drunk and horny or (B) it's your turn as the wingman so you're throwing yourself on the grenade (aka 'fat chick out with a group of hot friend') so she's not cock-blocking your buddies I'd hang out with you.

Is this about OJ Simpson? there was a lot of supporting evidence that OJ was there, most notably the DNA. In contrast, in the GZ case, the evidence loosely supported his claims of how it went down. Of course it does. That is the whole idea behind a good story. Look at what you won't be able to deny, and then work some details around those facts that make you look good. He knew he couldn't deny following and pursuing Martin. So he said he 'stopped' before they had a confrontation. Nicely done. He knew he couldn't deny killing Martin, so he said he was in fear for his life at the moment he shot him. Nicely done. He knew no one saw how the altercation began, so he knew he could claim Martin creeped up and attacked him as he peacefully sat there waiting for police. Nicely done. I saw no video of how it started. I heard no testimony from people who saw Martin spring from cover and attack Zimmerman. Maybe you guys did since you are so certain of how it transpired.

Except that he admitted killing the kid, no presumption of innocence needed. He just came up with a story of WHY he killed the kid that worked. It amazes me so many of you find it so hard to believe that Zimmerman would tell a story that makes him look like the good guy that might not be how it really went down.

Imagine the 911 call that went like this "hey I see this suspicious kid walking around looking weird yea im at xxxx drive can you send someone? ok now hes running away, you might want to send the patrol car towards the back of the neighborhood where he was running towards. Thanks for the help." That is what people who want to help do. They don't follow and kill people.

Well that cinches it. There's proof that GZ ran after him. Why didn't the jury notice that? I know it makes you feel better if GZ attacked and killed TM. I wonder why a jury didn't come to that conclusion. I just acknowledge that the winner saying the other guy started it, is self serving. Not unusual. But since we don't have any witnesses to how it started, and we don't have the other person to ask, we are left with just Zimmermans story about stopping his (following) and returning peacefully to his truck at which point he is randomly attacked and forced to kill Martin. I also acknowledge that Martin had already ran away. If Zimmerman had not followed him, then Martin is alive. Following me after I run away is a pretty clear sign you have ill intentions towards me.

On the 911 tape Zimmerman indicates that Martin has started to run away.

I don't know how you follow a running person if you are not running also.... pur·sue pərˈso͞o/Submit verb past tense: pursued; past participle: pursued 1. follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them. "the officer pursued the van" yes, pursue sounds accurate. Follow someone in order to catch them. I am not making it sound like anything. He started at point A and ended at point B.....no one debates that. He wasn't carried there by aliens. He was pursuing the suspicious person he saw. Martin started the day alive, and ended it shot to death by Zimmerman. Zimmerman killed him. Im not making it sound like anything other than it was.

You need to find a way to come back to reality He started at point A, ended at point B. = pursued, chased, followed Kid was alive, now kid is dead. = killed

He didn't premeditate murder. That is called 'planning' He did chase the kid down. He did kill the kid.

This of course is the problem. You think that is what happened, despite lacking supporting evidence and a contradictory jury verdict. He started at point A, ended at point B. = pursued, chased, followed Kid was alive, now kid is dead. = killed *****I know you think he STOPPED chasing,pursuing,following Martin and was then spontaneously attacked***** I doubt it. But either way he started off by chasing, pursuing, and/or following the kid he ended up killing. Maybe its a personal experience thing. I have been Martin (minus getting killed). -------I had some cracked out drunken asshole chase me and my buddy when we were like 15. We had gone wandering around the neighborhood late at night (like 2 am) for no real reason....because we weren't supposed to mostly. Some drunken asshole wandered outside as we walked past his house and determined we were obviously vandalizing his property. Chased us down, because of course we ran when some crazy fuck is chasing you, and then beat the shit out of my buddy while we tried to fight him off. He was a grown man.. Thankfully we managed to escape him and hide in the woods until the cops showed up (called by another neighbor who woke up due to the beating) and we were able to get his ass arrested. He could have killed us, told the cops we were up to no good, and that he followed us but gave up, then we attacked him. So he had no choice but to kill us. Thank god that didn't happen. I would never have gotten to touch boobies.----------- So I can totally put myself in Martins shoes. If you could show me a video of Zimmerman standing at his truck and Martin running up and attacking him I would have a different view. All you have is his story about stopping his pursuit. No one witnessed him stopping. No one witnessed Martin springing from hiding and attacking Zimmerman. No one witnessed the first punch.

I see a link between "how hard he's worked" and respect for neighborhood watch activity. Or more precisely, I think disdain for it is more common for those who don't carry their own weight. 'Respect for neighborhood watch activity" has 0 to do with Zimmerman. The title says it all....Neighborhood WATCH. Not "Neighborhood follow people while armed" I find it hilarious you draw socio-economic conclusions about me because I think chasing a kid down and killing him is inappropriate. I am a 29 year old white male. Live alone, bought my home in 2008 when the market collapsed for cash so I hold no mortgage. I run 2 successful small businesses and have a B.S. in Finance with minors in Accounting and Economics. Not sure how that factors into your box system, but you will make it work I am sure.

That's a pretty pathetic and far stretch. You don't know the first thing about him, and what he's worked for (or not). I got a pretty good inkling that is he's my neighbor and something is going on at my house, he's not doing shit about it. It's hard to give any credit to someone who is determined to ignore any evidence that doesn't jive with his uninformed first impression of the situation. Nah. I'd call the cops. Report the suspicious stuff, and stay inside my house. Or my truck if I was Zimmerman. I have no intention of killing another human, ever.....and most assuredly not to protect someones property.

yup... that idiot george (wasn't too smart to get out of his car in the first place) That part is accurate. I don't contend he planned to murder the kid, nor that he planned to get 'beat up'. I contend that there is very little likelihood the story happened the way the winner tells it. No one saw how the altercation started. But we know the situation started with Zimmerman following a kid who 'looked suspicious'. Not with a kid randomly attacking a man sitting in a truck.

It's his own damm fault for being an idiot who got kicked out of the family home 3 times in the last year for his lifestyle. Oh wait, in that case yes he should of been killed. - It was a lifestyle of breaking the law (drugs and guns) and fighting that got him kicked out. And his first instinct when going to a new home (his father's girlfriend's) is to attack someone else who lived there. Yes, he was attacking someone, possibly could have killed or seriously harmed them, and that person was entitled to defend himself. So yes, he was an idiot who attacked someone and got killed as a result of that... I don't really feel that bad about it. It was his choice to attack GZ. You know....according to GZ. Lol. I will remember to tell the cops I was done chasing whoever I was chasing, and was then randomly viciously attacked when I kill someone. The key is to make sure that your opponent is dead. Damn inconvenient if he survives and says he was still hiding when Zimmerman found and confronted him leading to an altercation that ultimately leads to Martin getting shot. Gotta make sure that fucker is dead.

so you stop paying attention to any information that doesn't support the loser's version of the story?? I never heard the losers side of the story. Hes dead.