riddler

Might want to post this to Gear & Rigging. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

We could be onto something here. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

I think there is only one female moderator? Not that I wouldn't touch skymama, but right now it looks like everyone else is trying to touch her. Methinks there needs to be more female moderators on dz.com, so we can enjoy our hot-pokey forks a little. "In place of a dark lord you shall have a Queen! Not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn; treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth - all will love me and despair!" Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Must be the smaller rigs you guys wear. I can't even get close with my Voodoo/Lotus 150 - are you reaching underhand or overhand? Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Out of curiosity, how does your DZ feel about you jumping with a dislocating shoulder? Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

My attitude towards TSA is that they will confiscate anything they don't understand. I keep fantasizing about trying to sneak a "good job" through there. I figure the poor bastards will not know what it is, confiscate it, and never return to their thankless, crappy jobs. I wear my closing pin necklace through the metal detectors all the time, and it doesn't set them off. A packboy probably would. If you can convince them it's just jewelry, they'll probably let you off. Edit - "pin" for "in". Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Sure, if you're talking about going from pure verticle to pure horizontal. The original question that started this topic was this: Answer (I believe) is that you can get to 91 horizontal without ever getting near 91 vertical. Long, steep dive, to build up a lot of KE over time, then plane it out at the end. But that's not exactly a hookturn. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

From a pure spectator's standpoint (I don't swoop), I kinda agree with Derek. It looks neater when they stand up the landing. Especially when you see Jay or some amazing pro turn the canopy on it's side(!), drag the stabilizer through the water, then upright it. If you can stand that up, it really looks like you are defying some law of nature. Swooping is a competitive sport for one reason only. It looks neat. Sure, there's a lot of skill and talent on the part of the atheletes, but that's not enough to keep skysurfing in the X-games or allow 4-way in the Olympics - those aren't really spectator sports. Swooping is one of the only spectator allowances in skydiving, so I think it's going to become bigger. And if it looks neater to stand it up, then it might become a rule purely for the enjoyment of the crowd. I guess spectacular crashes look neat too, but there's a difference between Indy 500 and a demolition derby. However, not being a swooper, I understand it's fast and dangerous. From that perspective, if it's safer to slide, then the athletes should be allowed to. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Well Steve, honestly, I saw all the VHS tapes you were giving away. I thought about it, but then got scared there might be a "boner jams '03" in there. Didn't want to risk it. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Wow. Without getting too kinky - how do you do this? I don't think I've ever seen it. I can reach my main pin with the same move as scratching my lower back. But even if I were limber enough to reach the reserve pin, I doubt I could wedge my finger up underneath the reserve flap - or maybe you go from the top? But if that's the case, you would have to pull the reserve protective flap off, then reseat it after your check. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

You're not subtle in the least, are you? Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

That has always been something that bothered me. Seems like conflict of interest with regard to some aspects of USPA. However, I think it's pretty much always been allowed. DZOs are some of the most influential members of the skydiving community. Sorry - will wait for new thread before posting any more on this. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Nope - didn't miss it. I was just casually pointing it out to everyone else hint - look in the BevSuits ads for a tracker in a pink jumpsuit Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

When you need to pull the reserve, you will likely have enough adrenaline in your blood to make it seem easy Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Mary only says that, because she's almost always in it It's a good idea to stay in USPA if you ever want to become an instructor. There are other agencies out there to get certified through, but USPA is the most prevalent in the US. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

This is not an airport access issue. The airport has required airport insurance since the beginning of the DZ, and beginning with last year, they were unable to get insurance. So the airport has requested that they not open. The two owners of Denver Skydivers (Williams and Fortner) have parted ways more than a year ago, and one owner (Fortner) started Colorado Sky Sports in Canon City. Colorado Sky Sports held an event there last weekend, and apparently, there is still some issue with insurance, which caused the city to react and cease and desist skydiving operations. I'm not directly involved, so I can't testify that any of the above is true and accurate. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Right - it was a subtle point I was making before. Let me make it more clear. Plenty of people understand that they may not make it through a surgical procedure. But MOST people don't assume that they may die from an ERROR that that the staff or doctor makes, or due to incompetence, indifference, lack of equipment or preparation, etc. This goes back to the earlier point of what constitutes iatrogenic. Does it mean medical error/pathos/incompetence, or does it get applied to anyone who dies in a hospital? You have to read the source of the statistics to find out. And I personally am just looking for the AMA to admit that there are a number of deaths due to these problems, and publish their numbers on the matter. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Good for you Cora! I will tell you from personal experience that 90% of the tie when you take a risk like this, it works out really great. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

We have tornados in Denver too - I've been in a couple of them. Hurricanes are a different story. You need to have water for that. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Took her out to a nice dinner and told her that I had fallen completely in love with her. I guess I'm not a big risk taker when it comes to girls. She laughed at me and rejected me. Wasn't worth it, IMO. Then again, there's probably a reason I don't take big risks for relationships. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

I agree with that. And I think the analogy is good, because I think that a skydiving instructor would feel a sense of responsibility when a student goes in (I would, I think). I also think that doctors feel some responsibility when patients die due to hospital errors. But the USPA doesn't take accountability for the deaths of students - we point the fingers at students. And I believe the AMA doesn't want to take responsibility for deaths that happen due to improper care. I do think there's a difference that requires a moral duty on the part of the AMA. Skydivers participate in a sport, and they are informed of the risk (I hope). I also hope that skydivers take the responsibility that they may die doing what they do. But patients have a different view of doctors and medicine. People go to hospitals and they trust doctors - they expect to get better. No one goes in thinking that a doctor/practitioner error could kill them - they may think that they are sick and may not recover, but I don't think people realize that they could die without good cause due to poor treatment. That's why it's important for the AMA to fess up. Let people know that if they are hospitalized, or even treated by a doctor, that there is risk. And depending on the numbers you choose to believe, it may be a serious risk. I'm still searching around JAMA for any overall numbers. Still can't find any. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Here is yet another problem. How do you define iatrogenic? There is actually an organization called the American Iatrogenic Association, although they're based in Dallas, so I don't have the same fraternal bonds . Here's a quote from them: Can I sue my doctor for that? But I think the lack of clarity over the definition makes it important to look at the underlying data. A lot of focus of this thread has been about the septic deaths. What about the other types? What about the fact that Could it be that we are not providing extra care to the elderly that they need? Or is it just that they're old and ready to die anyway? How do you look at it? I've said it before - why are there NO numbers from JAMA? Even if you cut out 80% of the HealthGrades number, you still have enough to show up in the top six. JAMA shows nothing about it. Nada. The sixth leading cause is drug use (17,000/year). Even if you cut 80% out, the number of iatrogenic deaths is twice that. And yet there is no mention of it. Why? The sheer magnitude of the problem is difficult to ignore. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Well, I am sorry that I wasted your time with such drivel. Maybe I'm just biased toward this company because they are headquartered in the same state as me. But I smiled about your statement above because I remember thinking that very same thing about WebMD when they came out - "that's stupid - a website for medical advice". Earlier this year, I did a five-month contract with WebMD, which has become close to a $1 billion/year company. I guess the size and dollar value of a medical organization are the only things that really give it credibility. After all, the doctors that work for HealthGrades couldn't possibly be as competent as someone working for JAMA. Or, maybe Healthgrades really has something? Hmm. Well, there is the basis of a JAMA model, which supports a report by the IOM. But, of course, the IOM isn't credible either, since it's not JAMA. In fact, JAMA disagrees with both HealthGrades and the IOM (I'm sure that competition doesn't factor into that at all), and disputes the report. Here is a link. I'll quote from it so that you don't have to waste your time reading it. Interesting that they didn't choose to publish their dispute, or really give any supporting evidence. What's more interesting to me is that despite the claim that "no one is disputing" (as I saw posted above) the fact that iatrogenic deaths happen, I can't seem to find the overall number for it from JAMA. They disputed this report, but don't want to furnish their own numbers? Why is that? Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

I'm not sure that's a good analogy. This story doesn't involve, for instance, the drug companies acting a third-party suppliers, so it's hard to extend it to a parachute killing a skydiver. This is a story about a culture that deceives others about it's actions and also tries to convince itself that it did nothing wrong. A better analogy might be a dropzone with a faulty plane (can you imagine??) that crashes and kills a load of skydivers. The dropzone then says that a bunch of crazy people who wanted to jump out of a plane got killed, so it's really their own fault for dying. The DZ doesn't want to take responsibility that maybe they had a hand in it. They were, after all, only trying to help the skydivers get what they wanted. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

Exactly what I'm saying. I wouldn't argue with anything you just wrote. But where are the statistics? They're not in any leading articles. They're not even in the list of leading causes of death: One source says 195,000 deaths a year, and another doesn't even mention it? Maybe JAMA thinks it's less than 17,000/year. I believe it's not even on JAMA's list, and I seriously doubt it ever will be. I don't believe it's a conspiracy. I believe it's financial. When you go to a dropzone, they don't post numbers on the bulletin board about how many people have died there. When you go to get your car fixed, they don't tell you how many times they've broken cars. When you go to a hospital, you don't want to sit in the waiting room or hospital bed and read a JAMA article about how hospitalization is a leading cause of death. But I also believe that doctors have a higher calling than dropzones and auto repair facilities, and should be held to a higher moral standard. That's just me. Maybe others think it's better to keep them like a corporation and focus on making money. Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD