dthames

Thanks for the replies. The point of “allowing a miss teaches nothing” is a great point. I was not implying anything good or bad about any level of help. I have seen instructors totally hands off, if the student was easily finding the handle. I have seen instructors gently ready to guide if the need was there, and some that would guide no matter what. What I was most curious about was if there was more than one school of thought on how much help was good. I have jumped with several instructors and can’t complain. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Pops, Well, you challenged me, so I had to test. This was not very scientific. I have done this before, just on my own without “help”. I just now did the following. I took a blind stab at it. I missed a bit, felt around, put my finger in the middle and then withdrew it, bending mostly at the elbow, until my hand was near my head. Then I went back down. Four of four times my fingertip touched the top edge of the cap. This was a cap of about 1” OD. I started over but allowed my wife to gently guide my hand the first two times. Then the following three times I touched the cap twice on the top edge and once in the center. The “help” certainly didn’t hurt my performance. I can’t say it helped because by the time I hit the center had done 8 or more touches, so maybe I was just getting better because of repetition. It might be interested to repeat tomorrow night with the “help” on the first cycle. If you want to turn it into a drinking game, put booze in the bottle cap and use a straw in your mouth instead of your finger. Then have a teammate verbally guide you. Have two teams of two, each swapping turns (dunking) after a the other team member gets a "hit". First team to finish their bottle wins. I would guess after some time accuracy would start to suffer. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Imagine this. Put a pop bottle cap on the table with the open side up, within easy reach. Take a good look at where it is on the table, close your eyes (keep them closed), move your hand out with the goal of landing your finger inside the bottle cap. Feel around if you miss it and try again, never looking. After a few tries, you should have it and be able to repeat it, if you nor the cap moves. If during this process someone helps you by guiding your hand, what effect does this have on your ability to learn how to find the spot to bring down your finger into the cap? During AFF students often need some help finding the handle for the practice pulls. I was curious of anyone recalls conversations on how that type of help, effects the student’s learning of where the pull actually is. I know some students need more help than others. I was just curious if this topic comes up among instructors. I searched the forum and did not find such a thread. Thanks, Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Tebow fun at the DZ. http://vimeo.com/34033037 Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I have noticed that the person that conceives an idea and the person that implements it are often not one in the same. Sometimes it is by design and sometimes by chance that the two get together. Talking about such ideas on this forum might give someone (the guy that can build it) a great idea…..someday. If you look back 15 or 20 years at what a cell phone was, it was the size of a brick and did only one thing. Today, a “phone” has many features and capabilities, including some with walkie talkie mode(they can talk directly to each other). My camcorder even has a GPS built in to tag the photos/videos with the location they were shot. For those that don’t know it, there is something called differential GPS that can determine position to less than one foot error. Today we see skydivers with sophisticated altimeters, GPS devices, and other gadgets. In 5 years, what will the latest skydiving electronic gadgets look like? Who will shape what they do and how they work? Look at the FlySight GPS. There was a need, the need was understood, and a product emerged. As computer radio networks get more capable and computers faster, it would not be farfetched to imagine a radio web of devices all talking to each other, reporting position and vector information, and for device "A" to have an understanding of the fact that device "A" was closing with device "B". But before any such device would exist, someone would need to understand the need, express the requirements, and then someone with the knowledge to put the pieces inside the black box, would need to work to make it happen. I would agree that today, something as described here (audible beeper) might not be a practical solution. But each time a jumper turns toward someone else and then proceeds to fly into them, you can’t help but think, “Is there technology that might have prevented it?” If not, the next question should be, is it possible to build such technology? Take a look at page 66 of Jan 2012 Parachutist. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

My mother sewed well and taught my sisters as they were growing up. It took a long time but both of them ended up being very good. My wife tried to learn but just didn't have the time to get as good as my sisters. She was often redoing her work, which took time. I don't know if it would be a good idea or not, but if a person tried to learn making clothing for a doll, it would seem that total time and rework time, plus material costs would be reduced. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Wow, that is funny because I have spent some time during the past few weeks thinking about the exact same thing. I was reluctant to post the idea because I am sure many would think it silly. My thought was that at about a 2 second interval it would chirp. If it ever heard a chirp that was not it’s own (based on timing) it would chirp right after it detected another unit's chirp. That way, it would not need a sense of the range, just “I repeat what I hear”, plus keep sending out my chirps. This would double the chirp rate for one detection, triple it if two units could be detected. In order to prevent any possible syncing up between two units (where they could not hear each other) the time between chirps would need to float around inside a window of time, somewhat randomly in order to prevent units from accidently getting in pace with each other. I like to tinker with embedded processer controls, but I have not done much of that lately. The audio part of the design is outside my talent range. But I bet we have some young engineers in the community that could take on the task. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

My uncle was in airborne when I was a kid. I recall playing “paratrooper” and PLFing off of the shed and out of the barn loft. In my early 20’s I saw the movie, The Gypsy Moths and thought skydiving (wing suit) would be so cool. In my late 30s I got to ride at the exit door with the Golden Knights. I still thought I wanted to do it. Getting a house and raising the kids as always higher up on the list. So I never took any action. I am in my 50s now. A few months ago I saw some current wingsuit videos and thought it would be great to do that. One of the things that tipped the scales was my mother (now in her late 70s) telling me that daily life was just so much harder now than when she was in her 50s and 60s. My thought was “Do it NOW”. So I started just a couple of months ago. Yes, I know you can’t jump a wingsuit until sometime after 200 jumps. Will that keep someone from posting that great revelation? Likely not. Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

This may not be "bad" but my musically oriented son told that the second version was made by a guy that learned to lip read during the time his mother was going deaf. I guess he had the talent to misunderstand in a creative way. Be sure to watch the first one first. “Just haven’t met you yet” (original) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AJmKkU5POA&ob=av2e “Russian Unicorn” (a product of bad lip reading) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjaZNYSt7o0 Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Reading all of this thread I feel like my learning path may have fallen (by chance) into some posters "ideal" training model. Because of specific circumstances I introduced some static line jumps between some of my AFF jumps. Here is what I have done and where I am headed. The “days” is how many days since the last jump. 1 AFF 1 AFF 1 day 1 static line 4 days (new DZ starting here) 1 static line 36 days (weather) 1 AFF 0 days 2 static line 7 days Future plans below (on jump vacation trip) 15 minutes wind tunnel 13 days AFF 14 days Finish AFF and work toward A license while on trip. The jump trip was planned at a time when I fully expected to be finished with AFF by the trip date. But my AFF did not go quick and easy. The first static line jump was introduced by a series of unexpected events and I quickly saw the value of canopy work without “pass or fail” pressure at the rate of $180 per jump. So, I have been doing some static line jumps as refresher and just for fun learning. I have done those while waiting on the trip and being able to get in the wind tunnel before more AFF jumps. On my next AFF jumps, I should be able to focus on the free-fall aspect, because the canopy work will now be a repeat of what I did on the static line jumps. Well, up through category D, anyway. My new DZ instructors have been great to allow me to adjust my path, while also going above and beyond with training. Merry Christmas Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I haven't cracked open the SIM in awhile. I just did. Let me say that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of in terms of a Main Landing area, but makes some sense if setting up completely separate Main Landing and Swooping areas. I can't think of any drop zone that would operate their main landing area that way. Thanks. I was not suggesting we do this next Saturday. I just want to make sure I understand what I am reaading. Maybe someone that works on the SIM could review this section. Listen to the instructors for the local DZ would be the standing rule, I guess. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I added my modified version if what I was envisioning. I switched patterns from left to right, to agree with what I understand the text and the caption on the drawing says. See attached. Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

The SIM text describes how left and right hand pattersn should coexist on the same field.....jumpers turning away from each other. But a couple of pages later, a drawing shows jumpers turning toward each other. That looks like a contradiction to me. Can someone explain, if it is not? SIM section 4-3 C 6. Planning a landing pattern (intended landing area or alternate) for smooth flow and separation of traffic (see illustration above): a. Jumpers on left-hand (left-turning) approaches should land on the left side of the landing area; jumpers on right-hand approaches should land on the right side of the landing area to prevent conflicts. b. The turn from base leg to final is the most hazardous because of opposite approaching traffic c. See and avoid. Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Just looking at what the card says, couldn't you take a look around after each blind flare? I don't see anything about keeping your eyes closed the entire time. Maybe it is to enhance the Jeti skills, or the first step toward instrument rating requirements. Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I am in AFF and will continue in AFF. Circumstances prompted me to do a static line jump after my first two AFF jumps. Since then I have done three more static line jumps. The main reason was to practice canopy work. But when it is 35F at ground level, 5000 feet sounds better than 11,000 feet. I plan to continue my AFF next week in warmer weather. The static line jumps have taught me a lot (nothing about freefall as I was always hooked up). I feel better off having had the experience. I know I can land (under normal conditions) without it being an issue. If you did one static line jump first, you would have your first landing behind you when you started AFF. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

As I stated, I am thinking about the future. As I stated, I AM going to get my own analog unit first. But I am curious to hear valid arguments against such thinking as this (see hyperlink), http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=754 since it appears some that posted have an opposing opinion. I would like to understand the other points of view better. Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Thanks for the info guys. Yes I am a beginner. Yes, this is something for the future. My very own Altimaster Galaxy III hand mount is on the top of my want list. With student gear it is like a grab bag of what you will be using. A dragging needle under 1000 feet doesn't do much to help you in the landing pattern. Better pattern accuracy is what prompted the my question to begin with. Merry Christmas Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I am considering the possible future purchase of an audible altimeter, mostly for reference while approaching and including the landing pattern. I see at least one unit that offers, Up to three separate freefall altitude warnings Freefall warning altitude set with 100 feet (25 meters) increments Freefall altitude warning goes off only at freefall speed Up to three separate low speed altitude warnings Low speed altitude warning set with 10 feet (5 meters) increments http://www.parasport.it/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21&products_id=88 My question is would that be up to 3 freefall and up to 3 low speed? Or are there just 3 total and you can allocate them to a mix of freefall and low speed, as you see fit? It would be nice to have 3 for low speed and some for freefall as well. I read the user manual and it is still not clear to me. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I did 2 static line jumps yesterday just to do canopy work. In two weeks I have time in a wind tunnel and then I will go right back to AFF. But for now, the canopy practice is nice to do. I am at a small DZ without a lot of canopy traffic. As we take off on my 6th jump I tell my instructor to note a specific piece of something white...that is my target. I learned already that student altimeters under 1000 feet are not much to go on. So, I have started sort of eyeballing things after I start my downwind leg. I shortened up the downwind and flew the base until it looked about right, then turned toward the target and flew right at it, and almost perfectly into the wind. I touched down about 20 feet short. Early training cautioned about trying to stand up a landing. So I just put that out of my mind and always PLF or if my feet are out in front, sit on down on my butt. The instructor told me later, he knew I could have stood it up if I wanted to. He was right, but it just had zero priority for me. I did the initial rear riser turned for the D category, on this jump. For my 7th jump I planned to do the rest of the rear riser D category work. I was under canopy right over the landing area and started the canopy work. I did all that was required and found myself a little downwind. The wind was at 7 MPH right before takeoff. Now the wind had shifted around and my ideal pattern entry point was opposite of where I was at. I headed there but after a minute or so, I determined that if I made it to the spot, I would way too low for a normal pattern. The night before I studied the forecast for the wind. It showed the wind from the west. Normally it is from the south. I have a DZ aerial photo in my notebook and I had already laid out the ideal pattern for wind from the west. If you just try to rotate our normal right turn pattern because of wind direction, after the wind gets even close to being from the north then buildings are a problem The big arrow on the ground was pointing somewhat north of west as I was descending. So I am thinking my left hand turn plan B is looking better all the time. I knew I was the only one in the air, so I went to plan B. I was very close to where my new planned downwind would turn to base. I just spiraled down a bit and entered directly into my base leg. I flew it for a few hundred feet and turned toward my target and into the wind. I touched down about 50 yards short but easily stood it up. I am still using the medicine for motion sickness. I have not felt sick with it, but after one jump, I feel like a 2 or 3 hour rest is what I need. So, I have just built that waiting into my jump day plans. I just take at the pace that is comfortable. It was really a good day. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Great to here such excitement after an early struggle. I am still in the early struggle phase and look for the day when I can see that guy/gal floating out in front of me. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I have not read this entire thread but will post an answer to the original question. I have taken a break from fireworks making to learn to skydive. I make lots of black powder type products ever year. Black powder to break large shells is the most common black powder product that I make. Very, very few could come up with the means to make modern smokeless gun powder that would work well. You might make a little batch, but from one batch the other the performance would be all over the place, I would guess. Black powder a person can make if you have the ingredients. Maybe you could find some sulfur. The charcoal you can make. The potassium nitrate you can make but it is VERY labor intensive and pretty tough to get even a fair product. I have not tried to make potassium nitrate but from reading old texts, it was a huge job. But in the civil war days, small factories did exist. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Just an update on my "progress". After 4 weekends of bad weather, the conditions for student jumping were good today. Instead of waiting for my AFF “turn”, I asked that I do another static line jump. I knew I could do better at keeping my neutral form on exit than I did on the previous static line jump. It was in the mid 20s last night, so allowing time for the day to warm up at 11,000 was a concern of mine. So the static line jump about noon was better than being at a greater altitude. The static line jump went well and an AFF jump happened later in the day. I can’t say it was my best jump ever, but just getting to jump was great. I was taking the medicine today and no problem with motion sickness.

I had an AFF start date set and had never been to a DZ. A few weeks before my start date I went there to visit and look around. They were still cleaning the packing area floor when I got there, so there were very few there and nothing to do but drink coffee while we waited. I am normally the wall flower type, but my goal was to learn. So, I dove in and introduced myself to the jumpers that were there. The first comment was, “He looks like a belly flyer to me”. I piped back, “How can you tell from just looking”. I wrote down everyone’s name and a note of something I could remember them by. I never expect anyone to remember me, at least not right away. But I know that skydiving is one thing you just can’t do without help from others. So, I went out of my way to make some friends. I did a lot of watching and trying to select people that had something to give, if I asked. I noticed about one fourth of the people didn’t really want to chat or they had their focus somewhere else. But for the most part, I found some people I enjoyed visiting with that appeared happy to see me. I don’t have any specific advice here but I know for me, I have to force myself to be a little more outgoing than is normal for me. Later I visited a much smaller DZ and I would say they were more likely to start talking to me first. One fellow pulled me right into showing me the basics of packing, as I was watching him pack. There seems to always be at least some jumpers that are interested in seeing a newbie succeed. You just have to find them. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

I am about in the same boat, waiting with the hopes of a nice Saturday now and then. I have been finding some really good threads on the Safety and Training Forum, as I wait. You might want to spend some time there. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Gentlemen, Thanks for the lively discussion. It actually helped me. Dan Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”