Palestinian Attack on Israeli Seminary

[Skyrad 0]

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AN ISRAELI cabinet minister apologised yesterday to the leaders of Ireland's four main churches, who are on a visit to the region, after they were barred from visiting the Western Wall because they were wearing crosses.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0502/1209678891667.html

When will Christians learn that Israel is not their friend?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

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AN ISRAELI cabinet minister apologised yesterday to the leaders of Ireland's four main churches, who are on a visit to the region, after they were barred from visiting the Western Wall because they were wearing crosses.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0502/1209678891667.html

When will Christians learn that Israel is not their friend?

Possibly when they start making up their mind after looking at all the facts and not before it.
That would be a good start.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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http://www.ireland.com/...2/1209678891667.html

When will Christians learn that Israel is not their friend?

and this is related to the original post how exactly?

but since you brought it up, why dont you tell the whole story?

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The leaders of Ireland's four main Christian Churches have accepted an apology from the Israeli government after a Jewish settler prevented them from praying for peace at the Western Wall in Jerusalem on Holocaust Memorial Day.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-leaders-forced-to-cancel-holy-site-visit-in-crucifixes-row-1364298.html

so, an INDIVIDUAL person (even if it was a local official, which according to this source, it wasn't) thought it was wrong for them to wear crosses in the Jewish holiest site and made a scene and they've decided to leave. ofcourse this is unacceptable and there was an an official apology by the minister of interior affairs, which they have accepted.

don't you think another one is in order?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Amazon 7]

Chirp Chirp Chirp



The sound of crickets is deafening

[Skyrad 0]

I would if it was a isolated event and one person but its not. The persecution of Christians in Israel is well documented. Google it if you don't already know.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[cumplidor 0]

If you cannot see the OBVIOUS contempt that Zionist Israelis have for not just Arabs, but Christians or anyone else non-zionist, you are almost beyond help. You absolutely refuse any potential or idea that the Israelis may actually be the aggressor in this relationship? Or are the Zionists simply just looking for some pretext to completely bust their ass, further punishing not just the extremists, but ALL who live there. Don't they just want the land anyway? The history of the government of Israel expelling native peoples to surrounding countries is extensive for 'settlements'. Now they just bomb the fuck out out of any who hold any hope of getting their families historical lands back from the 'settlers'. How does Israel make an offer to all foreign Jews for free land to come 'home'.

I'm sure you remember the USS Liberty? What is your thoughts and who was the aggressor in that incident? PLEASE, please Amazon, answer this question...

BTW- I found some very interesting reading- The history and definition of usury. I would theorize that some of the Arab/Israeli conflict has some roots in this concept too. It appears that Islam totally FORBIDS usury or charging interest on loaning money (they even have totally different kinds of banks and such). Early Christians did too! Interestingly, Jews also forbid charging interest on money borrowed- but only against other Jews. I guess we are here to serve the Jews after all eh?

Wonder if this would be related in any way to the (cough, cough) trillions of dollars the taxpayers of the US owe to the Federal Reserve Bank (you know who that is right?), and the massive interest payments we make to these folks... Only interest though- no principal (that = less profit you know).

But doesn't this all seem to fall right in line with the statement made shortly after the event of this topic "the life of 1 Yeshiva boy is worth more than the lives of 1000 Arabs". Which seems a pretty odd statement unless you are some bigot who views yourself as better than anyone else because of their _____ (religion, skin color, gender, amount of wealth, social status, age, education, etc).

But look at their history? What keeps getting these folks into the messes they get into??? Their business practices maybe??

Why the heck is their Holocaust more important than the countless other holocausts that have taken place anyway? What about the holocaust of the African slaves brought to all points of the world? I remember in history class hearing that close to 1-2 in 10 actually made it to the destination? If there were millions of slaves, that means the Holocaust of the African Slaves was much more costly to their people right? But didn't they just view Africans as animals anyway, justifying in their minds what they were doing as okay??

See any similarity of attitudes?

[likearock 2]

Feel better now?

[falxori 0]

your obvious lack of knowledge and uderstanding is only shadowed by your outspoken racism.

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the OBVIOUS contempt that Zionist Israelis have for not just Arabs, but Christians or anyone else non-zionist

just so you know, there are Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs and Jewish Arabs much like there are Muslim/Jewish/Christian Americans/British/French etc.
who exactly do us "Zionist Israelis" feel contempt for?

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Wonder if this would be related in any way to the (cough, cough) trillions of dollars the taxpayers of the US owe to the Federal Reserve Bank (you know who that is right?), and the massive interest payments we make to these folks...

ok cool, so us Jews get all of your money, where do I sign up? because I think someone forgot to add my name to the list of people who get a free ride...

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Why the heck is their Holocaust more important than the countless other holocausts that have taken place anyway?

its not more important. but it is different in causes and motivation. if you really want to learn about the difference I would be happy to sit with you and share my thought. learning from that event in history is the most important thing, and not just for Jews.
again, its not more important, its just different.
and since you've mentioned African slavery, then you are right, the racial aspect is very similar. the only major difference I can think of is that in the case of African slavery slavers viewed the Africans as free work force (like animals) which they wanted to use and didnt care if they die. in the Holocause, the goal was to exterminate an entire race.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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learning from that event in history is the most important thing, and not just for Jews.

I agree, its just a shame that it has never happened. Yugoslavia, Rwanda, the world, including Israel sat by and watched in the full knoweledge of not only what was about to happen but while it happened. "Never again"? That is nothing but a sick joke.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Amazon 7]

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BTW- I found some very interesting reading- The history and definition of usury. I would theorize that some of the Arab/Israeli conflict has some roots in this concept too. It appears that Islam totally FORBIDS usury or charging interest on loaning money (they even have totally different kinds of banks and such). Early Christians did too! Interestingly, Jews also forbid charging interest on money borrowed- but only against other Jews. I guess we are here to serve the Jews after all eh?

Wow I didnt think we had representation from the Aryan Nations other than the Volskfront guy from Oregon who raises his ugly voice from time to time.

[cumplidor 0]

Seems no one wants to address the bigoted 1/1000 statement, made by one of the religious leaders of Israel, and published in their newspaper for the world to see.

But I am the racist???

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who exactly do us "Zionist Israelis" feel contempt for?

Any non-zionist, anyone who doesn't agree with the Holocaust, any Palestinians who want their stolen lands back, etc Oh they obviously felt contempt for the boys of the USS Liberty, to bomb the hell out of them for 20+ minutes. (where did they get this 'oops- intelligence mistake' script from anyway?)

Oh yea- How's that citizenship thing work in Israel? Do the Arabs have EQUAL rights under terms of being a citizen of Israel? All Non-Jews have equal rights as citizens? Are the Arabs allowed to owning land? Are they allowed to vote (does their vote matter anyway??).

You know, how every citizen in the US has EQUAL rights . You got that over there?

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in the Holocause, the goal was to exterminate an entire race.

The zionist leaders who had their country (Israel) in the bag now (created with the Balfaur Declaration during WWI).

That was not quite the understanding I had of this time period. I do understand, that the actual number of the Holocaust has been revised quite a few times. Originally 8 million, then the generally accepted 6 million, but the Auchwitz camp plaque has even changed to reduce the number claiming to be killed in that camp. Why do countries have friggin laws against discussing this? If truth does not fear investigation, what do they fear? The Holocaust is now considered fact and that event has been jammed down our throat as fact, and no investigation is allowed. (revisionist historians are put in Jail as you know)

But this 'event' facilitated a radical change and created a new country, carved out of a 'territory', and given to the Zionists. And we can't question it.

Please understand I do know Jewish folks who do not agree with the policies of Israel, and I also know Muslim Arabs who are not extremist in any way.

[cumplidor 0]

I think that deafening cricket chirping sound before was coming from your computer.

USS Liberty? - Hellooooooo surely you remember that event?

[Amazon 7]

I do remember the incident..on balance the Israelis have been our only friend in a region filled with enemies. Not to mention.. the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

BUT... I did not realize the Volksfront types were using that incident as their latest excuse.

When it quacks like a duck and waddles as a duck.. it indeed must be a duck..

That truely saddens me that there is another of that ilk in our midst.

[falxori 0]

oh man, this is almost too easy. I should just shut up and let your nonsense speak for itselg, but for the small chance that someone might chose to follow your path...

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Any non-zionist, anyone who doesn't agree with the Holocaust

ok then, if non-zionists are people who do not "agree" with the holocaust, then you are right, I have nothing BUT contempt. that is very different from your original non-zionist=non-jews

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Oh yea- How's that citizenship thing work in Israel?

very well for the most part

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Do the Arabs have EQUAL rights under terms of being a citizen of Israel?

yes, Israeli Arabs are equal citizens by law.

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All Non-Jews have equal rights as citizens?

yeap, exactly the same rights. as defined in Israel decleration of independence and by laws that have followed.

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Are the Arabs allowed to owning land?

yes, and houses and cars and even pets.

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Are they allowed to vote (does their vote matter anyway??)

yes and their votes count in the same way as mine does.

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You know, how every citizen in the US has EQUAL rights . You got that over there?

if you didnt get the point until now, YES. every Israeli citizen is equal by law, same as any other democracy.
does it mean that Arab Israelis always get the same chances in life? no, because even if they are equal by law, you cant change some personal views that some people may have (again, same goes for any other democracy)

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I do understand, that the actual number of the Holocaust has been revised quite a few times. Originally 8 million, then the generally accepted 6 million

does it really matter if its 6 million, 8 million or 4 million? sadly there are no exact records, just good estimations.

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The Holocaust is now considered fact and that event has been jammed down our throat as fact, and no investigation is allowed. (revisionist historians are put in Jail as you know)

so in the name of "science" everything goes? let me remind you that the Nazi race theory was based on "science" too.
survivors are slowly dying, the death camps won't last much longer anyway. the Holocause being a "fact" is what will make sure that the lesson learned will be remembered.

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But this 'event' facilitated a radical change and created a new country, carved out of a 'territory', and given to the Zionists. And we can't question it.

didn't you just say that "the Zionist leaders had their country (israel) in the bag" long before the holocaust?

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Please understand I do know Jewish folks who do not agree with the policies of Israel, and I also know Muslim Arabs who are not extremist in any way.

good for you. I don't agree with some of Israel's policies and you'll be suprised that most of the Muslims I Know are not extremists at all

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Skyrad 0]

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the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Yea, your country used to say that about Bin Laden.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Do Jews that were born Jews have any more rights under Israeli law than Jews that converted?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[cumplidor 0]

Thank you for showing me that I obviously have a great deal to learn about how Israeli citizenship works.

Did I understand you to say-

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I have nothing BUT contempt

for anyone that doesn't agree with the Holocaust?

Can you explain to me why it would be necessary to jail individuals who choose to disagree with (lawfully defined) history? The fact that history has been revised numerous times already, would seem to lend credibility to some of these folks arguments, I would think. Why can they (Jewish leaders) arbitrarily revise the amount of dead claimed during the Holocaust (essentially changing history), but not historians? That seems illogical to me. Again I say, Truth does not fear investigation.

And as well, could you please help me understand how a religious leader could get away with the 1/1000 statement previously noted, in response to the Attack? Also, have you attended school at a Yeshiva or are you familiar with some of their teachings? Is the Yeshiva like the only kind of college or are there other kinds?

Thanks for taking the time-

[cumplidor 0]

No Amazon, I just wanted to hear what you thought of it. I like the way you justify it -

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on balance the Israelis have been our only friend

I think of it as more a blatent attack, where you I guess you see it as a 25 minute 'oops' that was simply doesn't need to be investigated at all. Surviving members of the crew forbidden to discuss the incident. WHY?

That doesn't send up flags that scream something is wrong? Anytime the government says 'we don't need an investigation'- it screams of ill doings.

What is a Volksfront type since I seem to be getting called one now? and excuse for what?

[falxori 0]

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Do Jews that were born Jews have any more rights under Israeli law than Jews that converted?

first of all, your religion has nothing to do with your rights as a citizen.
the only different is the law that grants citizenship to any jew that wishes (a direct result of the need for a jewish home country after the holocaust), but once a citizen, there is no difference.

regarding coverted jews, again, it has nothing to do with citizenship. there might be some difference in the religious laws that might affect things like religious marriage or burial but these are usually things you chose to do if you wish to.
converting to judaism is actually pretty complicated since the jewish religion is not a misionary one (unlike Christianity and Islam for example that encourage people to covert).

to make it short, there may be some religious practice differences but civil/criminal law is the same (again, like any other democracy i know of)
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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Did I understand you to say-
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I have nothing BUT contempt

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for anyone that doesn't agree with the Holocaust?

yeap, exactly.

Holocaust denial was outlawed in many countries so first of all, its not a jewish/Israeli plot. i'm not even sure Israel has such laws.
why? probably to protect the factual history from people who will reduce it to speculations as soon as the last living survivors and the last piece of physical evidence is gone.
is it against the "freedom of speech"? I guess so but sometimes freedom of speech is not the most sacred thing.

and as for the 1/1000 statement, I have no idea what you are talking about, who said it, what its about or what was the context.
but, are their jewish people who think a jewish life is worth more than 1000 arab lives? probably. every nation has its crap and so do we.
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[cumplidor 0]

Thank you again for taking the time.

So as I understand you to say, Freedom of Speech is okay as long as it is not used to question the Holocaust.

I am still not certain why there must be laws to 'protect' history as much as maybe to 'protect those with the right to change history', as they have seemingly done, multiple times by dropping the number 'exterminated' by the millions. I question the circumstances that these countries created these laws too. I disagree with "crimes of thought' of any nature.

I read you to say earlier that the difference between this Holocaust and the not as important others are the fact that there was an attempt to exterminate the entire race- right?
That would seem almost logistically impossible to me. There were countless Jews in many many other places that makes that statement seem impossible even for a crazed dictator. How could they get to them all? I understood that members of the Zionist Party in Nazi Germany had much more freedom that history discusses or acknowledges. Are you familiar with this or is this simply not true?

The 1/1000 statement was provided in a link earlier, and can be read here.

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Former Sephardi chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu called on the government to decree that for every life lost in the attack another yeshiva and township will be formed. "Even when we seek revenge, it is important to make one thing clear – the life of one yeshiva boy is worth more than the lives of 1,000 Arabs."

Maybe this guy is the Israeli version of David Duke I dunno. If so, then why hasn't he been stripped of the ability to teach? If that type of attitude is allowed to teach, they would then transfer that attitude of hate to many more, would they not? If the government or the religion does nothing to stop this type of behavior, does that mean the state endorses the behavior or 'free speech'?

And I ask again-
have you attended school at a Yeshiva or are you familiar with some of their teachings? Is the Yeshiva like the only kind of college or are there other kinds?

Thanks again-

[falxori 0]

ok, now you are starting to get on my nerve (which seems to be your goal anyway)...

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read you to say earlier that the difference between this Holocaust and the not as important others

read what i said again, and slower. i said its different, i never said anything about they being less important. you did.

but since you asked...

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there was an attempt to exterminate the entire race- right?
That would seem almost logistically impossible to me.

then brush up on your history. the Nazis exterminated jews (mostly but not only) in every country they've invaded, had they won the war they would have continued. had they not been stopped in egypt by the english the jewsih population in (what is to become) Israel would have been exterminated as well.

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The 1/1000 statement was provided in a link earlier, and can be read here.

as wrong as this statement is, you are taking the words of one person, talking in the heat of the moment after a mass murder terror attack on school children who were shot at point blank.
imagine how would you feel in the heat of the moment if it had happened in a school near your home.
I don't really know this guy and his views but if he held any authority, its mostly a religious/ceremonial one, not a government one.

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Is the Yeshiva like the only kind of college or are there other kinds?

A Yeshiva is a religious school (college level), where some religious people learn higher level religious studies. Israel has secular colleges, universities, professional schools etc. like any other country.
it sounds like in your mind Israel is some kind of a crazy theocracy with nothing but religion. even Iran, which is the best example of an extreme Theocracy has secular life, universities (and pretty good ones too) and mostly sane normal people (too bad they are controlled by fanatics.
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Do the Arabs have EQUAL rights under terms of being a citizen of Israel?

yes, Israeli Arabs are equal citizens by law.

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All Non-Jews have equal rights as citizens?

yeap, exactly the same rights. as defined in Israel decleration of independence and by laws that have followed.
***Are the Arabs allowed to owning land?

And what rights does Israel grant to those outside its borders? I can list quite a few which Israel has taken away, despite the US's demand to do otherwise.

[cumplidor 0]

I am not trying to get on your nerves. But do see it- my sincere apologies.

Okay, the difference between the different Holocausts throughout history is that this one was committed to exterminate the race of Jewry. Understood. I guess I just don't understand that then translates to the formation of a country under fairly hostile conditions. Or that is again my perception of that part of history. I thought that was where the Palestinan refugees came from originally? Is that what the 'Right of Return' that they want that Israel refuses to allow?

The 1/1000 statement was spoken by one, but it appeared to me in the article that he was not alone. There were articles in the same paper that made allegations that another Rabbi from a different Yeshiva had authorized individuals to issue retribution for the attack since IDF didn't. The reports were denied however by authorities. I read a different article from a different paper where the Christians living in Israel are spit on by some Rabbis. The actions are condemed by the government. But the actions were described as fairly commonplace by the victims. To me, something seems odd with that attitude showing itself in so many different places- religious places.

I am certain that most folks living in Israel are working hard like the rest of us at just getting by and doing the best we can, just like everywhere else.

It just seems to me, with the very heavy hand Israel has and (seems to frequently) use with nothing more than self-restraint guiding their retalitory actions, is awfully brutal and massive overkill often times- in response to events that hurt very few or no one?

Actions such as that, as well as 30' high walls that block farmers from their lands, making access difficult or impossible, reports that school children are shot in the head by IDF soldiers, just would indicate an attitude that lines up with the 1/1000 kind of statement rather than an attitude or promotion of any sort of peace.

Sorry one more question- Are the refugees in Gaza or elsewhere considered citizens of Israel or what is their status?

Thank you again-

[falxori 0]

no problem, it just bugs me when people put words in my mouth.

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I guess I just don't understand that then translates to the formation of a country under fairly hostile conditions.

the dispute between the two nations has started long before the holocaust. google the riots of 36-39, the Balfour declaration etc.
what the Holocause did was to show that the jewish people really needs to form their own homeland again.
I dont want to start the who was here first debate again so i'll just say that both nations have a rightful claim over this land (and a 2000 years claim is no less right than a 300 years claim).

when Israel was formed in 1948 there was a division plan formed by the UN. this plan was accepted by the Zionist movement but reject by the local Arabs. they've started a war and lost, causing some of the local arabs to flee (btw, those who stayed became Israeli citizens). so yes when they say the "right of return" they mean the refugees of 1948.
what people tend to forget is the jewish refugees from arab countries (close to 800,000 if i remember correctly) that were kicked out from their home countries. there were refugees on both sides and trust me when I tell you that the condition of the jewish arabs refugees in the early years of Israel wasnt that great either.
the main difference is that over the years, Israel has managed to help start a new life while the arab countries mostly chose to maintain their current condition and even make it worse (google "black september" in jordan)
if/when a palestinian state is formed, most likely around the well accepted 1967 borders, the palestinian refugees can return to the palestinian parts of their home land much like my family will not get to return to its home in Hebron after being kicked out of it in the riots of 1937.

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made allegations that another Rabbi from a different Yeshiva had authorized individuals to issue retribution for the attack since IDF didn't

if so, then he's nothing more than a terrorist in my eyes and should be dealt with according to the law.

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Actions such as that, as well as 30' high walls that block farmers from their lands, making access difficult or impossible, reports that school children are shot in the head by IDF soldiers

the wall and roadblocks are a sad but needed measure in order to stop busses from exploding and school children getting shot like the case that started this thread.
let me make it very clear, israel DO NOT just shoot people in the head. civilians are used by the terrorists as human shield. just about a week ago, two terrorists carrying loads of ammunitions were shot and the resulting explosion of their cargo has caused half a family to get killed. now, I'm sure there will be people here that will blame Israel as it has launched the attack which ended up killing civilians but when terrorists are using residential areas to store explosives and back yards to launch rocket attacks, then what would you do?

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Are the refugees in Gaza or elsewhere considered citizens of Israel or what is their status?

no, the parts beyond the 67 borders (green line) were never "annexed" to Israel and are considered an occupied area by law (although it is part of Historic Israel and is very dear to all Israelis).
their status was under military rule until the 90's and the Oslo accords which formed the Palestinian authority. when Arafat chose to reject the camp david agreements (which have resulted in a palestinian state) violence broke out again and no major agreement has been reached since. now, when Hamas has taken over Gaza and rejects all previous agreements too there is no one to really talk to.
its a very complex and twisted histort and its hard to fully analyze it here. both sides have made huge mistakes and it doesnt look promising for the near future as the current Palestinian leadership (Hamas) rejects all agreements and Israel's right to exist.
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."