AvK

This will be my last contribution to this discussion. Overlooking the ‘battle field’ I think this was a very useful discussion. I guess this topic is almost to its end. Conclusions that I take are: I consider that everybody must make his own decision what to do in case of a broken steering line. I consider this topic very useful for other readers making this decision. I consider a broken steering line on today’s modern parachutes as a serious problem. I consider landing with rear risers more riskful than using my reserve. I consider learning students landing by rear risers very riskful I consider a main with broken steering lines as a deformed main Bruno wants to know why: A main with released toggles is keeping its profile/shape because of the maximum steering line length at that point. When you make a turn, that same maximum length will keep the profile intact. If you are flying with broken steering lines, the part between the edge of the tail and the D-lines, is living a life of its own. Can you imagine what can happen when you try to land such a deformed canopy? Riskfull to me means: - very small margins on rear riser input - high-speed landings that won’t stop by pulling your rear risers a little more, your on your back before you know it. - In my opinion you can’t compare practicing ‘normal’ rear riser landing with landing a main with a broken steering line, your canopy acts very different in that situation. - I still can’t see why anybody would practice rear riser landing if your toggles are ok. Pointing to expert swoopers who use a part of this technic for better swoops is not relevant in this discussion. - If you land a main with a broken steering line, when will you use your reserve anyway? A broken d-line, c-line etc (I mentioned this before) - What if the four S’es are ok, and at 1000 feet turbulence or hard winds make you doubt your first decision? - Having doubts about your reserve is ok, having doubts about the flying capability of a deformed main is better. Billmon is the moderator of this discussion. In my opinion he has often abused parts of my words by putting it out of its context or by suggesting that I am not competend. In my replies I have told him that several times in a not to be mistaken way. Some readers seem to support my point of view on that. BTW: I don’t have a problem with Bill’s point of view on this subject, I have a problem with how he handles other peoples opinions in his replies. It is better, not to highlight quotes out of a coherent reply, and give that quote a life of its own for your own purpose. But maybe that is my own problem and maybe he did not do it on purpose. American/English isn’t my speaking language, maybe some misunderstanding comes from that. Anyway: This weekend I made 5 jumps, I had a lot of fun and a few beers too. I also spend a few hours on this (fine) discussion. CA in an other topic….. Blue Sky – Have Fun – Be Save AvK

Hi Bill, Seems we are having this discussion the 2 of us....No problem, I dont't have discussions every day with someone from the States. >Why? In a previous post, you questioned the wisdom of practicing something that might only hurt you once every 1000-2000 jumps. Emergency procedures surely fall into this category, since malfunctions occur at about that rate (at least for me.)< AvK: You are taking my reaction out of its bounds and you know it.... The reserve procedure is a worldwide standard procedure. Rear riser landings are not, and I also mentioned the very small margins of rear riser landings. So this comperasion isn't fair, beyond I should have any wisdom......( don't know if this is good writing in American) >A question for you - if your reserve is indeed perfect, is there any issue with cutting away regularly for fun?< AvK: That is a stupid question, a moderator not worthy. I talk about a deformed main you are cutting, not about a perfect flying canopy you cut from for fun. Please don't kid me. Seems to me you are losing arguments.....(teasing mode)

>However, a broken steering line in a correctly-rigged parachute is similar to not using your toggles, so your parachute flies in a similar way.< AvK: This is exactly the point where your wrong. If your steering lines are broken, your tail section is waving through the air. The performance of your main is decreased a lot.You are flying a deformed main at this point. >It is not a nice-to-know - in fact, incompetence under canopy is now this sport's #1 killer.< AvK: And again you support my point of view in this topic, if you land a deformed main you are increasing the risk of injury or death. How can you be competend on a deformed main? In Europe, statistics show that people landing main parachutes with broken lines, are injured or killed more often than people landing their reserves. >I practice emergency procedures even though I have only had two sport-gear cutaways in 2800 jumps, and I recommend that everyone else do so as well.< AvK: Today I made my 2306th jump, I have practiced my reserve procedure at least 2306 times now, probably more……… Putting the worldwide standard -first safety rule- in this discussion is rather out of bounds. >Your reserve can malfunction and kill you. Like a main parachute, it can blow lines and panels, have lineovers, bag locks and PC-in-tows.< AvK: Of course they can! But I consider that risk a lot less, then getting injured or killed on a deformed main, so I use my reserve. Statisticaly a parachute malfunctions once in a 1000 times, if that happens to you, the risk of a malfunction on your reserve is 1 on 100.000 I’ll take that ‘risk’. And I can’t imagine, that in fact some people are learning students to land on rear risers. Students don’t know better than you learn them. Specialy students don’t have the landing skills of experts and can’t handle the small margins of rear riser landing. Another thought I have about this (fine) discussion is WHEN will you use your reserve anyway? A broken D-line? A broken A-line? A broken line in the middle or on the outside? Etc…. If you have a deformed main: Hit the reserve! That’s my point. > an unknown and untested reserve.< AvK: Know your gear and trust your gear. And your gear holds a perfect reserve too. By the way….. it is at least TSO tested, even in Europe. Final verdict of AvK: Of course everybody is free to make his own decision. No doubt about that. But if I had doubts on my reserve, I would quit jumping immediately. A long time nothing happens……. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some notes to people who might want to know a little more about AvK: If your not interested: SKIP THIS!!! I’m in this sport since 1984. Today I made exactaly 2306 jumps now. I jumped: C9 - T10 - PC mark 1 (75 jumps and a lot of fun) - and several square mains like Raven2, PD190, BT40 and Stiletto120. I do a lot of RW (sorry FS), until now exactly 1628 RW jumps including big ones (72 is the Dutch record), also a lot of Sit- and Free Flying and did about 200 CREW jumps, about 400 camera jumps and a lot of instruction including freefall, student instruction, demo’s etc. Competited the Nationals in Holland about 12 times in RW4, RW8 and CREW4 and CREW8, sometimes as a cameraman but mostly as team-member. I jumped several planes like C-172, C-182, C-185, C-206T, C-207T, C-(Grand)Caravan, Pilatus Porter, Twin Otter, DC-3, F27, F60, Hercules, Balloons, Boeing Steerman, Helicopters like CH53 and MI26. I once pulled my reserve because of a deformed main and once landed a BI-plane because of an Cypres activation (dumb dumb and dumber.......It can happen to you too.....be warned....) I consider myself an expert swooper, at least I’m one of the known ‘better swoopers’ on my dropzone. So I’m not the worlds best skydiver, but I'm also not a nono, some of the replies try to suggest that……..unfortunatelly. Blue Sky, Have Fun, Be Save [More on the light side mode:] If you have a problem, don’t care what it is, if you need a hand, I can assure you this: Your Reserve can help....... (remember Billy Swan? Yes I’m old.....39.....) [End of light side mode] (This message will destruct itself 5 seconds after you have red it............turn off your computer NOW.........Bill Gates isn't responsible for what happens next.........)

That expert swoopers use their rear risers for better swoops is not relevant. First they don’t have broken steering lines, second they use their toggels in the last fase of the landing and third they have practiced this type of landings hondreds of times. Most jumpers aren’t expert swoopers and don’t want to be. The 4 S’es could work when your on 2000 feet, what if you get near to the ground and wind, turbulence etc get grip of you. Not to speak of the guy that suggest’s to cut your second steering line too. Do you have time for that or want to spend time on that? The moment you discover a broken steering line you have plenty of time to use your reserve. Today I made a few jumps. In midair I practised rear riser flying, yes I did. On my Stiletto 120 and 85 kilo’s of body weight I concluded that the margin is about 12 centimeters (4 inches) before stalling the canopy. I also concluded that my airspeed didn’t slow down much, only my vertical speed slowed down to zero. Of course this was with ok steering lines, so circumstances where ideal. My guess is that if you land with rear risers you will stop your decent rate, but your canopy keeps flying at high speeds. This may result in more rear riser input and a straight on your back landing because of the small margins. I’m still talking about ideal circumstances. Things get worse when your steering lines are broken. Or do you want me to practice with broken lines which I first cut off myself? The people suggesting that I should practice rear-riser landings miss my point in this discussion. Why should I practice a skill that I could use once in a 1000-2000 jumps. Specially when that skill itself is riskfull because of the very small margins you have. It is NOT riskfull to use your reserve, that’s my point.

A lot of people are talking about their reserve as 'a last chance'. As if it would be a miracle that it would function. Your reserve functions as well as your main canopy. It will open as well and even fly better with all the lines intact. That's why we call it a reserve, and not 'a last chance parachute'.

Today's modern canopy's are high performance, mostly because of the airfoil and modern 'silk'. If a line is broken (don't care if it is a steering line or another) you will dramatically reduce the performance of your canopy. You will also increase the chance of a (very) bad landing and injury. In the almost 19 years I am in this sport I've seen or heared of several rear-riser landings and they were all bad (sometime's very bad) landings. Why take that risk if we all have a perfect reserve on our back? Seems to me most responders are afraid of using their reserve!