TomAiello

I disagree. The discussion is far from moot. True. But the majority of those persons will seek advice, or do some kind of research, before making their own decision. What we say here may effect one, or more, of them. Further, those persons will possibly receive instruction from a more experienced BASE jumper. What that more experienced jumper thinks, and does, may be effected by our discussion here. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Brit is correct. A more heavily loaded canopy will tend to open faster, all else equal. Also, a smaller canopy will tend to open faster, as will a canopy with ZP on the topskin, a canopy with a steeper attack angle, etc, etc, etc. There are a whole lot of things that go into opening speed. Unless you are planning on freefalling under 200', I doubt you'll go wrong with any of the BASE canopies currently on the market. The differences in opening distance for the full range of "normal" configurations is going to be less than 10 meters or so. You can extend this (in both directions) by doing some heroic rigging, but in general, whatever your wingloading, you are going to be ok. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

"Textbook" or "Standard" wingloading is .75 pounds of exit weight per square foot of canopy. Some threads on this: Wingloading for Dummies: Follow the link in the top post for more discussion. Wingloading Canopy Size Yes. But in general the practice is not nearly as wide spread as it ought to be. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I am looking to contact friends or family of Jason Corcoran. I'm trying to compile some biographical/memorial info for memorial at the bridge. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I don't think so. My impression has been that he's really pretty much just about having as much fun as possible, He _is_ way goofy. That's just his personality. I haven't seen the program, but he's not putting that on for TV. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Well, I wouldn't go so far as best in the world. But, Dave was the very first person I ever saw fly a wingsuit (about a minute before Jeb and Yuri launched from the same exit). I think that was in 99 or 2000. And I think I would say that he's one of the best BASE jumpers in the world. He had been to most of the current hot spots years (like a number of years in the double digits) before they were "discovered" by Red Bull and Television. And I know he's been to several places that are still on my (and everyone elses) to do list--and pretty much not discovered by the world BASE community yet. And he did do that one the Red Bull guys got all that TV time for, up in the arctic, about three years before they did--and with an ice axe strapped to his leg, becauses he manned up and climbed the thing, instead of riding a helicopter. He's also incredibly down to earth, unpretentious, and humble. And I believe he's the current world record holder for most jumps in a particularly hot national park--which many also consider the birthplace of BASE. So, no, I don't think he's the best wingsuit pilot in the world. But I'm honored that I've been able to share jumps with him. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Um, do you know him? Or are you judging him based on some random TV program edited for effect? I do know Miles. I think he's a heck of a guy. Friendly, open, caring, always willing to help out. What's your experience been with him? -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Yes, and yes. Miles was the first person to try to teach me head down. I've also done a fair number of BASE jumps with him over the years. He's actually a super cool guy. I haven't seen the TV program, but I think you may be judging him harshly based on the TV editing. He's not the most intellectual guy, but he's definitely one of the good guys. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I completely disagree. I wanted to get into BASE when I had no skydiving experience. I've met dozens of other people (mostly climbers) who want to get into BASE but have never made a skydive. I know of at least ten of them who have then gone out and done so, with varying (from zero to around 300) numbers of skydives before starting BASE. Increasingly, the idea that you can just start BASE without skydives is gaining credence in various other (non-skydiving) places. This attitude has always had some following in the climbing world, but I've now seen it exploding in the skiing and snowboarding worlds as well. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I don't necessarily agree. Skydiving is very removed from most all of your BASE jumps. And from most of mine. But that doesn't make it so far removed from all BASE jumps. There are as many different ways of BASE jumping as there are BASE jumpers. I know jumpers who only jump legal walls in daylight, under good conditions. Skydiving can be excellent prepararation for many aspects of this (the riding in aircraft, for example ). Whether or not that is your kind of BASE, or mine, I think we need to recognize that it is a popular, and growing (again, whether that's good or bad is a matter of personal opinion) segment of the population of people who like to flop off solid objects with parachutes. It's kind of like climbing. Climbing gyms are great preparation for afternoon sport climbing outings. But they don't prepare you for a nasty six day alpine epic. Some people will stay safely on clip-ups, though, and won't need to be prepared for that nasty mixed nightmare at 12,000 feet. So, what kind of BASE jumper are you? And is it sufficient to prepare for only those jumps? Perhaps the most important thing is to recognize what are "your type" of jumps, and stay away from the ones you aren't prepared for. Personally, I stay away from things that require tracking skills. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

This is the best encapsulation I've heard for an idea I've been grappling to express for some time. I usually express it as a "danger zone" or some such nonsense. "Skydiving teens" is far easier to grasp. Thanks! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Ok, this just had me rolling. I think it deserves it's own thread. Dear Bounce Proof: I would like to apply for your course. I have previously been rejected for the "Harden up, Tiger" BASE course, also taught in the pacific northwest. My application for that course was rejected as it was felt that it would be impossible for me to ever harden up sufficiently. Please take this into consideration in my application for the Bounce Proof BASE course. I have three or four skydives, but none since July of last year. I'm also a little vague on that packing stuff, and tend to just use my canopies without packing them. Please consider me for your course. I promise to make you proud. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Basic Research used to include bungee jumps as part of their FJC, as launch training. I think the pendulator is far better, because the time between jumps is reduced by an order of magnitude or so. That means you can keep practicing, and do as many (hundreds, if need be) practice launches as you want. It's also a lot cheaper than bungee. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Perhaps BASE found us when we had never made a skydive? -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

A pendulator is a BASE training device, intended primarily for first jump students. It was invented (I believe) by Ronny Risvik (sp?) of the Stavanger BASE Klubb. Basically, it's a bunch of ropes that allow you to launch from 30 feet up a tree without cratering. That way you can practice repeated dead air launches without the consequences of screwing one up for real. It's virtually eliminated bad student exits at the popular big wall in Southern Norway. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I believe that is the point. A generalization is a generalization, even if it's a generalized attack on a group of people (have you read the talkback threads lately?). A pointed attack on one person is a personal attack. A personal attack is two things. Personal and an attack. Make generalizations about groups of people all you want. Make your comments specific to a person and I'll edit them. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I think you have a definite advantage for that experience. I wouldn't rate it quite as high as the advantage from skydiving, but combine them both and you're going to do well. No one is suggesting that. The idea would be that a student could be trained off an object with a huge wide open landing area. In one case that DdOg references, the object is such that it is actually physically impossible not to land in a giant grassy landing area (it's a city park, actually). This contrasts favorably with the skydiving environment. What skydiving instructor doesn't wish there was some way to make a student out landing absolutely impossible? As with the hanggliding, I think the paragliding will be a big help. While the canopy skills won't transfer particularly well (paragliders are much, much higher performance wings than BASE canopies), the knowledge of winds and turbulence shown by paragliders is fantastic, and this definitely gives them a huge advantage as intermediate and advanced BASE jumpers. Certainly. I'd say one of the biggest problems students have is freaking out because of the unfamiliar environment. In this regard, the more different (hopefully similar to BASE in some way) environments you have exposed yourself to, the better you'll keep your head in the BASE environment. This is exactly why Dwain used to train aerials by teaching in belts, then moving to trampolines and pools--each time, you had to conquer the same type of environmental shifts that you'd face when you moved to a BASE exit point. In essence, he was teaching his students to face their fear of the exit before they ever got to the exit (the same principle applies to the pendulator, or to BR's bungee training jumps). -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

How can someone perform a stable exit if they have been skydiving. Airplane skydiving gives exactly zero preparation for BASE exits. Balloon jumps or helicopter jumps are pretty much the only way to practice BASE exits on a skydive. I strongly believe that every BASE first jump student, regardless of skydiving experience, should be exit trained on a pendulator extensively before their first BASE jump. I've never seen a more effective training tool for avoiding perhaps the most common first jump errors. Thanks Ronny! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I think you might be thinking of the Susan Oatly fatality in California. But the point is well taken. Terminal jumps require a very different (and much more similar to skydiving) set of skills than sub-terminal (especially slider down) jumps. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

DdOg, Skyblu, I really like the discussion going on in this thread. Let's keep it friendly. Thanks. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I've made a couple BASE jumps on old five cells. I'm actually interested in getting my hands on a couple and exploring further. The flare (and glide) pretty much sucked, but I suspect that the openings could be pretty good, given a bit of re-engineering work. I also figure that a new, redesigned 5 cell would probably flare (and fly) a bit better than the vintage 5 cells I've jumped. edit: If you were asking "what do you think of using the existing, old school 5 cell skydiving reserves for BASE", my answer is: Get Real BASE Gear. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Who, me? Of course not , nope, never. I'd never even consider such a thing. In all seriousness, everyone who's made a BASE jump on a new wingsuit before skydiving it, raise your hand and step forward in shame... In further seriousness, we've mostly tried to do the first jump off an antenna, with a decent tailwind, rather than a cliff. But you never can tell with the Vikings... -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

Indeed it has. I'm really interested in people's thoughts on this. What skills should you teach? I'm not sure any of us can tell you what should be taught. But here are my random musings on what I, personally would teach (in no particular order). I'd love to hear other people's thoughts. Perhaps I'll try to make up an organized list. Regardless of what you are doing, and the extent (or lack) of your skydiving experience, you must find a qualified BASE mentor to see you through your learning progression. Skydiving skills that apply to BASE (to a greater or lesser degree) - 7 Cell Canopy Control CRW is definitely the best way to train this. The skydivers who are best prepared for the real life and death aspect of BASE (i.e. avoiding object strike) tend to be CRW jumpers. - 7 Cell Canopy Accuracy Real accuracy practice, with real accuracy jumpers. Not "let's all try to land over there". But actual targets and measurements. I'd prefer "sport" accuracy to classic accuracy, because landing soft is also an important part of BASE. Unfortunately, "sport" accuracy is usually done on higher performance canopies, so I'd insist on big 7 cells and soft landings. - Tracking Get a coach. Make sure they have a much better max track than you and can film you. Do "max track" coaching dives. Learn to dial in your track for maximum glide. - Low adjustments In BASE, you have to be able to turn and adjust in much smaller amounts of time than in skydiving. I'd suggest just kind of getting close, then setting up your landing in the last 500 feet or so. Unfortunately, most DZ's probably aren't going to allow this. - Cross and Down Wind Landings Again, you may get some resistance from your DZO, but I'd definitely practice landing cross and downwind. This is also something might be easier the first few times if done into water. Don't forget that these need to be accuracy landings, too. - Riser Flares Practice flaring on just the risers, with the toggles unstowed. Also try it with one toggle. Having a lake (or other soft surface) under you could make this learning experience more enjoyable. - Heading correction Practice checking heading before deployment, then correcting immediately after opening. Again, this is a skill that is difficult to practice on a skydive, because (a) you don't have a frame of reference to know how long it took, and (b) the opening sequence is so much slower that it's very easy, and not really representative of what's going on in a BASE opening. - Malfunction awareness The only way I can think to train this (aside from packing yourself an actual malfunction) is to pack with only one brake set. This can give you a wacky "almost malfunction" opening, to help you get used to the idea that you must get the canopy flying away from the object as your first priority. Combined with heading awareness, this could be excellent training. I'm not sure what your DZO is going to think of this, though. I wonder if this might be better done off a span over a lake? That way no matter how bad you screw it up, your odds of actual injury are very low. BASE specific skills - Exit stability I'd use a pendulator to train this, then do a couple round PCA's into water to make sure it had stuck. - Delay awareness Do progressively longer delays, and require a student to actually achieve their nominated delay within about a half second. I'd practice this by doing jumps with video, then checking the delay. - Heading correction Change heading immediately after opening, on the risers. Learn how much altitude this takes. Work up to the point where you are doing full floaters off a span, and turning your canopy around before it flies under the bridge (which is where you would strike a solid object). Eventually, you might want to try packing yourself a 180 (spinning the canopy in the pack tray) to try for a 180 with your body in a realistic position, and see how it feels to correct that. - Accuracy and Approach You can practice it out of the plane, but you'll need to practice it again off an object. Your whole setup and flight pattern need to be already established on opening, and you need to be able to adjust them depending on circumstances. This is rarely something you have to do for real out of a plane. Flying in part brakes will help this a lot. Hmmm. This is getting long and disorganized. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the critical things to learn are (1) Exits, (2) Object Avoidance (off-heading correction and object clearance--from launch or track) and (3) Landings. These three things are at the root of the majority of BASE accidents. After you've got them ironed out, you move on to (4) fixing malfunctions (correcting an off heading ought to feel routine by then, and not really qualify as a "malfunction") and (5) advanced skills. Honestly, the only thing I see here that I think is going to be clearly superior (in terms of developing skills, not necessarily in terms of student safety) from an airplane is CRW. The spaces in CRW are much tighter than most people are ever going to be willing to practice in with a solid object. Even tracking is going to get better training (because the frame of reference gives instant feedback) on a big wall. Ok, that was a mess. I'll try to clean it up and re-post something more coherent later. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I've got some vivid memories of PCAing him off a nasty (90 right = death) underhung exit in a swirling snowstorm. Say what you will, that old dog can definitely walk the walk. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com

I think Jason is a very smart guy, who does a heck of a lot more jumping than most, and does it very well. I'm not sure how he is on sketchy climbs, though...I believe the appropriate Australianism is "peakin' off his nut". My experience has been that the fifth control line noticeably changes the canopy's flare. However, the change it makes is drastically different from canopy to canopy. I think the people it helps most are folks like me--short, fat guys on big canopies. My arms just aren't long enough to get full flare out of a 290 or 310 size canopy, so shortening the flare stroke (by adding the extra control line) is a big help. I've found that the flatter a canopies trim, in general, the bigger impact the extra control line has. I've got no idea why this is, it's just my subjective observation. So, in my limited experience, adding the 5th line to a FOX changes it's flare a lot, but adding it to a Mojo doesn't change the flare nearly as much. I haven't tried removing a line from and Ace or Flik to test this, though. Take this with a grain of salt, as it's just an offhand observation. I do think there is a difference in where the fifth control line attaches. There are multiple places you could put it (I even saw one canopy that had a fifth control line attached on the outboard stabilizer, so that it effected the side, rather than the tail of the canopy), and each will have a different effect on the flare profile of the canopy. In short, I think Jason is right. But I also think there's a lot going on there that is over my head. Maybe someone a bit smarter, and with a bit more experience, can help us iron it out. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com