Zenister

heya I'm about to pass Lew!! track girl track.. i'm about to untie your shoes ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

oh i admit i ALWAYS watched HB when it was on..usually with the sound down and a tape in the VCR just in case they ran Silent Cries -Fates W, Over the Wall -Testament, People of the Lie -Kreator, Maked Jackel -Coroner wonder how many hours of my life i wasted sifting thru the the flavor of the month vids just for that 2 min of real metal... all the really dedicated metal that was going on at the same time MTV was playing up pretty boy hair bands like Cinderella and Motley Crue.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

oh comeon Ricky is the definition of poser... the only time he was any good was when he was to stupid to realize the band he was interviewing were mocking HIM... the look on lemmy's face was priceless "why am i talking to this git??" Headbangers ball was pretty much always shit..if you were lucky you would get one or two good video a night otherwise it was simply a repeat of the radio trash they were being paid to promote.. the heaviest thing they ever played was "March of the SOD" during the opening credits.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

joy...just what we need another attempt by eMpTV to promote poser hair bands and call it metal.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

clicky that works blueskies Bill ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

wow.there arent many pieces of paper i care about that one Rocks!! very, very nice . ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well thats partly because grippers are rarely sexy..get some nice freefly pants and a tank top and the complements will really roll in although i have seen some latex ones recently that were very nice.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Crown Plaza hotels have similar set ups in them.. of course you have to supply your own companion ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Lawn Darts!!! i had most of 2 full sets..til i joined the army and my mother threw out all the "silly toys" man...those things would be so much fun on the DZ while waiting for weather... that and a skateboard, cant say "my" because i went thru at least 50... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i'm not slamming ANY idea you come up with, i'm slamming the idea that a blanket regulation based on jump numbers alone will significantly help reduce the number of fatalities. I wont begin to pretend i have the knowledge or expertise to design a comprehensive canopy control class with progression based on demonstrated ability instead of number accumulation, but i believe it certainly can be done, and would do infinitely more to help pilots of all experience levels learn to fly the wings they are on. again i'm not talking about restrictions, i fully believe it is your right to hook it in under any napkin you feel you can fly. It is our obligation to the sport to make sure the information is out there and available so that each jumper has can make an informed decision on their own. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well just as a personal example i was drinking at 8 (grew up in europe, i guess they let parents make those decisions there. was taught to drive at 12 (and drove quite a bit between 14-16 before the state said i was allowed to do so) smoked for about a month at 16 (before deciding it sucked) its not hard to cite examples of 12 year olds skydiving and i know people who arent qualified to vote at 30..all that points out is a simple number scale (age or jump #'s) is a insufficient measure of any ability. education hasnt been tried. whats funny is all the activities you mentioned have TRAINING PROGRAMS to allow you to participate in the more advanced levels, i guess its to much effort for us to have the same sort of SKILLS BASED system. all the anecdotal evidence from this forum alone says that instructors arent teaching canopy control like they should in the first place, but your all ready to create blanket rules without even attempting to bring anything else up to acceptable levels first.. the question you never answered. sure you have to pass a test at 16, but once you do you can go out and buy pretty much ANY car you can afford without restriction of any kind..FAR more people are killed driving cars that their ability is clearly not up to handling under all conditions, yet i dont see you lobbying the DMV for tighter controls on 16 year olds and muscle cars. i guess lives only the tiny fraction of lives lost under canopies are really important to you, or are you off on a crusade to save EVERYONE from doing anything that could possibly kill them. :rollseyes: actually i could still likely jump an "overloaded" canopy at USPA dz, its not like any DZ is about to put scales next to the loading area to verify wingloadings even if your shortsighted blanket resolution were passed. Dont waste time with regulations that are difficult or impossible to enforce (although you may be able to sleep better since you'll have convinced yourself you've done something to promote safety) Take a step to promote education and ability instead with far better results than simply increasing the number of jumps the next divot has.. oh wait you might have to work to do that... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

thanks little one.. Blueskies holly ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

and i guess its to much bother for those involved to ACTUALLY READ the waiver they signed where it says THEY MIGHT DIE doing this.. you'd think everyone involved in skydiving would understand it is potentially a lethal activity and that the choices they make and the canopies they fly can make it more or less so, but i guess its to much effort to really read & accept that fact before you get on the plane. i doubt anyone thinks they are going to be the one who hooks it in, but if arent willing to accept that as a possibility then DONT GET ON THE PLANE.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

she may lurk more than she posts but MissMae is the skygoddess who convinced me to try skydiving and taught me to sit fly

well they give me green pieces of paper for being here..otherwise.. you'd think in a job that has to deal with so much "hurry up & wait" from our customers they would be more flexible about time, but of course not..some people cant break out of the "widgits production" mode of thinking...its sooo 19th century ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

absolutely.. an amazing skychicka got me out to the DZ in the first place, a couple helped teach me to sitfly and i've met many many more cool women there since.... and with 90% of them any time they have something to say about ANYTHING i listen intently.. and then proceed to do silly things to embarrass myself anyway ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

well not counting all the lo-fun h&p's the army 'forced' me to do was moping around the apt after getting back from a trip and had nothing really to do so when my roommate suggested i wander down to the DZ (she had been skydiving for a couple of years and we had talked about how i wanted too try it) and stop being so glum i figured 'fuggit' why not? that next day the sky changed colors...

your absolutely right..i dont have much experience in this sport only way to get that is time.. knowledge and training arent quite the same animals however. but i guess since i dont have enough laps around the sun or jumps i cant talk to some people...thats what prompted the "skygod" its a pretty simple statement too. what it seems is being missed is I am all for a requirement to demonstrate ABILITY before being allowed to progress. which is a completely different thing that a simple jump number scale.. i dont care if you have 7000 jumps..if your not standing up your spectre 150@1.1 consistently do you have any business jumping a Velocity 88@1.8?? having a supervised canopy control/training program in place would be much more effective at preventing stupid mistakes and incidents at all ability levels. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Would you not put a band aid on a deep wound until you could get to someone who could stitch it up for you? Or would you just let it bleed all over the place until you got there? i dont think the number of deaths (as tragic as each one is) that have occured so far constitute a "deep wound" in terms of the total number of people participating. regulation at the levels discussed so far isnt even a bandaid its closer to an amputation before trying to save the hand by any other means.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Well maybe someday I'll be enlightened enough to "actually live." Until then, I'll stick with doing everything I can to avoid augering my ass into the ground when I'm jumping - that's known as risk management. And I'll continue to preach doing the same to my friends, cuz I'm not yet enlightened enough to be happy when they die because they made the same stupid mistake that others have died from. i completely agree, not making a nasty divot is a goal i strive for every single jump. towards that end i study everything i can to prevent it. what i am arguing against is the mind set that it is anyone elses responsibility to decide what i can and cannot do in finding my personal limits..at some point i may surpass them. it is my decision to take that risk. Let's keep the name calling out of it. 'Kay? I've got no problem being civil. until comments like this no longer have jack to do with the discussion, but simply assume superiority. guess if i go out the dz and do 10 jumps a day for a bit suddenly my opinion will have value?? oh well..when the comment fits its not an attack. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

it also has to be a plan that is flexible, focuses on proven ability and not simple numbers as a means to determine relative safely.. i dont think it can be dont quickly, nor should it be, its highly unlikely even if a blanket restriction were put in place tomorrow that it would actually be followed. Would it even result in fewer fatalities? or would the cause &/or experience levels of the fatalities simply shift? (as they have already) training and education are the key elements, anything else (including regulation) are bandaids trying to address the effects not the causes of the problem. No it cant be done quickly (very few worthwhile things can) and has issues that need to be worked (and based on the comments about ST&As and AFI recommendations have needed looking at for a while) If what students are being taught isnt enough then that needs to change. If AFI's are making canopy recommendations that are leading people to fly canopies they are not ready for, then address that. until this is done you cant say education isnt working because education isnt really happening at all. unfortunately people are ALWAYS going to make bad decisions and stupid mistakes. The idea is to make sure they are exposed (cant make them drink) to the information to help prevent that. maybe the waiver you sign each year needs to have BIGGER LETTERING so everyone involved really understand you can die doing this..seems like to many people expect life to be safe and are offended when skydiving isnt... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Like I said get some experience, loose some friends, and come back and talk to me. ok mighty skygod. first time i've ever had to use that phrase in that manner. beer i guess i'm not worthy to speak to anyone with so much altitude...and so little concern for the freedoms and risks taken to create the sport in the first place.. the future of the sport is not in further restrictions or regulation. the more freedom you take the closer you get to the attitudes that EVERYTHING must be made safe for everyone. Wuffos all around us are bowing under to this exact pressure and you are helping to bring it into our world.... so disenhearting to skydivers so afraid of dying they dont want anyone to actually live ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yes actually. this problem ISNT growing..its shrinking your just not looking at it from any distance beyond the body infront of you. my family & friends are fully aware of how i live (and risk) my life on a regular basis guess i cant talk to you though i dont have enough jumps. oh well. reduce ALL speed limits by 20 mph. How many lives saved? require helmets for any outdoor activity? how many lives saved? everyone stay in bed all day. how many lives saved? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yeah thats right start off right away with the numbers prejudice. perhaps we understand very well. Perhaps we are just against MORE laws limiting what we can and cannot do with our own lives? perhaps everyone who is really so frightened of life should just stay in their house and be safe?? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

actually from your account it sounds like education is working just fine, and some people are still making stupid choices and fatal mistakes.. you know what? OH WELL.. the numbers we have for skydiving fatalities so far are WAY to insignificant for people to be running around (as you appear to be) screaming about the sky falling. When in fact given the increase in the number of jumps made per year the fatality rates are actually going DOWN. Of course in your zeal to save just one more life your missing the fact that your indices are only minor blips on the larger chart.. but string a few unfortunate events in a row and someone is right there ready to legislate our freedom away in the further interests of safety. there is a very simple way to prevent skydiving accidents, prevent skydiving. of course then you might as well throw all your freedom to decide what risks are acceptable to you as an individual as well.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.