davelepka

I agree with that 100%. The problem occurs when you take that leveraged form, and hang it from a flexible attachment point. When you do that, gravity will take advantage of that flexible point, and return the form a 'neutral' position, with equal amounts of weight fore and aft. This tendency of gravity to want to balance out whatever form you happen to be holding is exactly what would cause unequal pressure if you had some sort of hard attachment point to the canopy. Have you ever seen the trick strippers do on the stripper pole, where they grab the pole with both hands about shoulder width apart, and then hoist their (naked) bodies into a horizontal position? That is a great example of using leverge to shift your center of gravity. The catch is that the ploe represents a 'hard' attachment point, and this is what they lever against. What you are suggesting is possible is the equvilant of a stripper doing that same trick on a rope. It is not possible. No matter how hard they push on the rope, it will flex and their body will swing under them from the force of gravity. No pole, no leverage.

I had to resort to illustrations to make my point. I'm not that good at drawing, and not good enough with computers to do digitally, so bear with me and my primitive cave drawings. You can indeed pull down on the rings with various movements in the harness, but any input to one ring is going to effect both the front and rear risers equally on that side. By applying different amounts of force to the left or right, you can induce a harness turn, but becuase the front and rear risers are connected above the ring, you cannot apply force exclusive to one or the other. The reason I focus on the three ring as the hinge point is because everything above it connected to the canopy and held fast by line tension, and everything below it in the harness is held fast by gravity. If you reference figure A on my drawing, you'll see a canopy, hings point, and a load. The dotted line is the C of G, and you'll see that this figure represents a jumper sitting upright in the harness. The weight falls directly on the C of G. Now look at figure B. In this figure, the load is offset due to the bend introduced to the arm. However, because there is no 'hard' connection between the canopy and load, the weight simply finds it's way back to the C of G by way of the pivoting around the hinge point. No matter how hard you try to shift the load, it will always pivot about the hinge point, and return to the C of G. A hang glider is a good example of how you could make weight shifting work in order to effect the pitch. The reason it works on a hang glider is that the pilot does have a 'hard' attachment to the wing via the control bar which is connected to the framework of the wing. The pilot can push on this control bar, and shift his weight back to pitch up the nose of the glider, and he can hold his weight back there as long as he likes (more or less, sooner or later the wing will stall). A canopy has no such 'hard' attachment to the jumper, nor does it have the solid framework around the wing like a hang glider. The entire concept of the C of G finding it's own center can also be illustrated by the entire canopy/jumper system, and how it reacts to the position of the jumper under the wing. In this example, the hinge point is actually the canopy itself. If you were to pull both toggles down, you would slow the wing and the jumpers momentum would carry him forward, out ahead of the wing, causing the canopy to ptich up. We know that you cannot sustain this change in pitch, because the jumper will run out of forward swing, and return to a position under the canopy (of course you can hold brakes, and maintain a lesser degree of pitch up, but the majority of the change is only sustained as long as the jumper is in the forward swing). The way that the complete canopy/jumper system will return full flight, as the load returns to the C of G, is the same way your body (the load) will simply return to the C of G about the three ring if you were attempting to shift it. You are hanging under the canopy at a flexible point, and there is nothing you can do to shift the load away from the C of G. Gravity will always pull the load back to the C of G. As a reminder to all, this discussion is limited to the effects of fore and aft weight shifts on the pitch of the canopy. Many of the comments I made only apply to this one specific situation, and are flat out wrong when discussing other areas of canopy flight, and pointing all of them out isn't going to help anyone.

Best place to find Deland jumpers? Europe. Just kidding (sort of). Really, the best place is the DZ. Just go there, and when you sign in tell them you have 25 jumps and have never been to the DZ before. They'll hook you up with someone to show you around. They might even speak english (just kidding again, but not really).

Another quick thought, make sure you check on the distance from your hotel to the DZ, and check on what time sunset is. Remember that being a newer jumper, when you arrive at a new DZ you need to leave time for signging the waivers, and getting an orientation to the DZ, landing area, and how the place operates. If you plan on renting gear, add time to get that squared away as well. You could be looking at an hour or two on the DZ before you're ready to manifest for a load. If you're not current by USPA standards (what is it, 60 days between jumps for an A license?) you'll be asked to do a currency jump with an instructor. You can save time by calling ahead and seeing if you can make an appointment with an instructor so you don't have to wait in line with the students when you arrive. Also, if you're planning to jump during the week, call and make sure the place is open during the week. Even the big DZs generally have a day off, or a short day or two during the week.

Not at all, but you're making a mistake thinking that it has anything to do with the subject at hand. Of course the load can be traced from the top of the system to the bottom, but we're not talking about where the load is ultimately carried, we're talking about shifting the load fore and aft, and it's effects on the canopy. When talking about shifting the load fore and aft, and looking at how it effects pitch changes to the canopy, the three ring becomes the 'hinge point'. Given the tension allpied to the harness via your weight, the harness from the three rings down can be viewed as a solid piece in that it's parts don't move independently from each other. The same can be said of the canopy above the three ring, so you have two solid forms joined by a hinge. (Keep in mind that this is limited to fore and aft weight shifts. Of course the harness is dynamic along the left/right axis, as in harness turns, and the canopy is dynamic all over the place above the three ring via the risers and toggles) The other significant factor about the three rings in this case is that it's where the front and rear risers are joined together. Any input made below this point will effect both the front and rear equally, and input made above can be exclusive to the front or rear. This is why the three ring is the key point to this discussion, not the bottom of the legstraps. If you want to talk about harness turns, or opening shock, then the bottom of the legstraps becomes the focal point, but not here.

Overall I would continue to disagree. Comparisons between canopies and fixed wing aircraft are limited at best. On an aircraft, control inputs are made directly to the control surfaces which are hard mounted to the airframe. This is the only method of control you have with an aircraft in that if you make a control input, the elevator or aileron will move and steer the aircraft and that's it. The control system of a canopy relies on the weight of the jumper under the wing moving around to effect significant change in direction. The toggles and risers, to some extent, are really just there to alter the position of the jumper under the wing. If you pull both brakes to slow the wing, the jumper will move ahead of the wing and line tension will cause the nose to pitch up. The very existance of the 'secondary' input, the one made by the jumper swinging out ahead of the canopy is where the comparisons between canopies and fixed wing aircraft has to end. Aircraft are unique in their ability to maintain significant changes in attitude, while canopies are limited to the amount of time the pilot spends off center under the canopy. Beyond that, between the single point attachment to the canopy itself, and equal line tension from front to rear, I still can't see anyway that you could effect a pitch change by leaning fore or aft in a harness. Maybe you can explain without the comparisons to aircraft?

I think what you might be feeling is the difference in how you apply the input, and what angle you're reaching to apply that input. The further forward you lean, the more riser input feels like pushing down behind your back then pulling down toward your shoulder. Different for you, the same for the canopy. I understand your point about introducing the second point of attachment, and that is indeed what you would need to effect real change with fore/aft movement of your body. However, I don't think you can apply enough input to the risers or toggles to take up enough of the 'load' to effectively make it a useful second attachment point. In other words, you would have to be able to use those 'attachment points' to lever your body into an un-natural (against the balance of gravity), and you would stall out if you applied that much input. Not so much 'proof', but a good example is the various freestyle moves out there. Many of them involve leaning back, or sitting square in the harness, and the canopies seem to handle it just fine. It's not an apples to apples comparison because the pilot is doing other things that may effect the canopy flight, but it's an example of different postures in the harness not creating adverse effects on the flight. It would stand to reason that if leaning forward would create one reaction, that leaning back might create an opposite reaction, but we don't see that.

Organize them yourself, and you can do balloon jumps where ever and whenever you want. Put up a flyer at the DZ, and see how many people are interested, then call around to local balloon companies to see what the deal is. Check on the number of jumpers they can take at once, and see what they want to come out and fly. Do the math and see if the slot price is reasonable. Most balloon jumps are $60 to $75. Here's the typical balloon jump scenario - they're done at sunrise or sunset, for the calm wind conditions. The first load will launch upwind of the DZ, in hopes if drifting over the DZ by jump altitude. The jumpers will exit around 4000' or 5000', and then the balloon will land (somewhere). Load two will be in the chase vehicles and meet the balloon where ever it lands. The process will repeat itself until there are no more jumpers, sunlight, or the pilot realizes he hates skydivers and wants to go home. Everyone, usually including the first load, will land off. You'll need small fleet of vans or SUVs to chase the balloon and pick up the jumpers.

As long as you enter and depart from stalls with smooth inputs, balanced from a left/right perspective, you should be fine. It's an imbalance in inputs, or sudden 'panic' inputs that will get you in trouble. As far as making a comparison, there is none. If your new canopy is smaller, it will stall at a higher speed, and the stall will break and recover faster than your old one. This should be common sense, however, because a smaller canopy will do everything faster then a larger one, that's the whole point of a smaller canopy. Much like anything with a new canopy, explore the performance in a slow and methodical manner. Don't just honk down on the toggles and garbage the canopy the first time out, work the stall point and see how the canopy flies just at/over the limit. Work your way up to a full bow tie. In addition to watching your altitude during stall manuvers, check your airspace. Not in front of you but below and behind. You'll be going more or less straight down, and right into the path of a jumper flying below and behind you. Also keep in mind that you will be dumping altitude like crazy, so you need to check several hundred feet below and behind before you begin.

That's sounds like bullshit to me, but I'm not exactly sure why. Can you explain it differently? Here's where I'm at - we're hanging from a single point, the three ring, and that point is flexible between the risers and harness. Additionally, the front and rear risers are fixed to each other at that point. Due to this, any force applied below that fixed point is going to effect both risers equally. So the idea that the orientation of your body is going to effect the shape of the canopy just doesn't add up. Forgetting about that, let's think about the idea of moving the center of gravity. Even though there are left and right three rings, we'll look at it as a single point of attachment because were discussing effects to the pitch of the canopy, and any load placed on the left will be equal on the right, so we'll call it a 'single' point. Regardless of where the weight is carried, that single point will flex, and create more or a less a straight line up to the canopy. Imagine if your lines were actually attached to the ceiling of the hanger instead of a canopy. If you were to hang in your harness from the ceiling, do you think you could find a body position that would cause the lines between the three ring and the ceiling to do anything but hang straight down? My impression of the situation is that the only way to effect the angle of the lines on a real canopy is by balancing the airspeed and drag of the jumper and canopy. If you can raise the airspeed of the canopy, it will move ahead of the jumper. If you reduce the airspeed of the canopy, it will move behind the jumper. Even then these effects are temporary, as graivty continues to pull stright down on the jumper, and the jumper/canopy system will react to that the want to return to 'full flight' sooner than later. I'm going to maintain that leaning forward in the harness is primarily a function of getting your weight up ahead of your feet so when you put them down to start running, you're already in a natural posture for running. Once that was established, I think a lot of guys started doing it because that what everyone esle did, and that was now the swooping 'body position'. Kind of like the capri pants everyone wears. Later on down the line, some of the competition guys took it to a whole new level, almost falling out their harnesses by laying down close to horizontal, at which point is became a drag reduction technique for distance runs.

I can read just fine, maybe I should have spelled it out in clear english, but no I do not agree to the terms of your 'deal'. Just because you think the subject is over and done does not mean that it is. I just want my position to be abundantly clear to anyone reading this thread - if you try to stop the freefall and fail, the plan is PARACHUTE, PARACHUTE, PARACHUTE. Never, ever, ever abandon that plan unless you have at least 3/4 of a canopy over your head. If you have anything less than a partially (3/4 or better) inflated main over your head, go straight to PARACHUTE, PARACHUTE, PARACHUTE without delay. If your partially inflated main is spinning, look for more like 7/8 inflation before you consider getting 'creative' with your situation. I'm not replying to your posts for your benefit, it's quite clear you've made up your mind and are not willing to listen to reason. I reply to make it clear to the low timers reading this thread that your plan is a bad idea, and that I'm willing to back up that opinion with many, many reasons why. Hookit was nice enough to add a great one, kevlar kill lines. I didn't even think of that, but that stuff is tough and doesn't like to cut. It's kind of ironic, but the very reason you would go in is the same reason they use kevlar for kill lines - it's strong as hell and very resistant to cuts and abbrasions.

I'm not sure how you could make that guarantee. Have you ever tried cutting a bridle with a hook knife? I haven't but I've cut a few things with them, and it's not always like a hot knife through butter. There's usually two layers of binding tape with stiching down each edge, and a spectra kill line down the middle. You also realize you'll be curled up in a ball on your back, right? It's not like you could remain belly to earth, reach back for the bridle, and pull it in front of you to cut it. You'll have to roll over, and bend at the waist to even make a grab for the bridle. If you do get a hand on it (remember, they dance) you'll have to pull it in somewhat to get it in range of the knife. All that adds up to is airspeed, and lots of it follwed by time to roll back onto your belly to pull your left side chest-mounted ripcord. It all sounds like it would take a lot of altitude if everything went down like clockwork. If you want to act like 3 hook knives will make your dick bigger, it's literally your life on the line. To anyone else reading this, think about the situation and the details I've pointed out. Use that information to make your own choice about how you would proceed if this should happen to you.

I hope you realize how close to going in you're going to be if you think you can cut your bridle off of your leg in freefall with a hook knife. Remember that the PC trailing off of your leg is going to be holding you head low. You'll also be reaching for the bridle with one hand, as the other will be full of a hook knife. Here's the kicker, with a PC in tow, the bridle does not sit still. It's bouncing and dancing all over the place. You're going to be reaching uphill for a dancing bridle with one hand. Even if you do get a hand on it, you still need to thread it through the slot in the hook knife. Looking at the other option, just duming the reserve, you have to figure that with the bridle wrapped around your leg, the remaining bridle is nowhere near long enough to get near the reserve container. Once you are on your belly, the PC will be over the snag point on your leg, much further away than a normal PC in tow would be from the reserve PC. Even in a regular PC in tow, you have the freebag system to help you avoid a reserve deployment problem. As stated above, around your leg is actually better than towing from the pin, the PC is further from the reserve PC. Dump the reserve, and the worst case scenario is a two-out, which is way easier to deal with than a 'no out', which is what you will have at impact if you attempt to cut your bridle in freefall. You need to reconsider this plan, and any other plan for dealing with a deployment problem that keeps you in freefall. Any solution that takes longer than 4 or 5 seconds from the time you realize you have a problem to the time you have a canopy over your head is the wrong solution. Just getting your hook knife out while dangling head-low with a PC hanging off of your leg will take 4 to 5 seconds. You're not even halfway to an open reserve canopy with your plan, and you've already burned through 1000 ft. It just doesn't add up.

Double check the Sunpath delivery times. There was a thread on here recently about some serious wait times for Javs, something like 8 months? Maybe 10? It's shitty advice to suggest buying a rig you hope to fit into in six months, but if you want a Jav, it might be something to think about. Or think about buying a kick-ass Infinity, which you could get your hands on much quicker.

If you're buying a first rig, it's also imporrtant that you involve a local instructor or rigger who knows you and your abilities to ensure that the equipment you are considering is appropriate for you, in addition to making sure it's airworthy, as-advertised, and appropriately priced. There may be a person local to you who can help you with this for a fee. It might be a rigger who will do it for the price of the inspections, or it might be a local gear 'broker' who will take care of arranging shipping, payments, and inspections. They might also know of gear for sale locally which is the easist way to deal. PM 'likestojump' on this site. He does a bunch of used gear sales, and even has a thread or two started by satisfied customers. I know him personally, and he is trustworthy in terms of correctly representing equipment, and accepting returns. Even then, have everything inspected by a rigger, and spell out all of the terms of the deal (including returns) before commencing with any transaction.

There are a lot of 'ifs' in your advice - if you do this, and if you do that, everything should be fine. The problem is that you don't know if he can or will do any of those. Seeing as he's asking for advice online, it's leaning toward him not having a qualifoed BASE jumper looking over his shoulder. With the information provided, the safer advice was the more conservative adise. If he's going to try this with little information or experience, start off subterminal, and at least keep the airspeed part of the equation on your side. The truth is that there is a big difference between a practiced and refined pack job into a BASE rig, with minimal folds to the canopy, and no ful length riser covers to deal with, and s-folding a canopy into a rig with freefall style riser covers. Are you aware that on some rigs, the risers don't clear the covers until the canopy hits line stretch? The bag will lift off, the risers will stay in the pack tray until the canopy is out of the bag. How would this effect a free pakced canopy? How about an asymetrical release of the riser covers? For a guy not used to handling a packed canopy outside of a bag, the potential for screwing up the pack job goes way up. Not screwing it up to the point of a mal, but it would be easy for the pack job he did to the canopy on the ground to not quite make it folded into the container. This is why I suggested to ease into it, and dump out of the door. For the record, I learned to freepack doing just what he's talking about. I jumped a Fox out of an old student Racer, and i have to tell you there was a learniing curve for sure. Consistancy was not the way I would describe the first few jumps. I got better, but I was glad to be throwing out at something less than full speed.

Thanks for the 411 poindexter. My bet is that a guy who has to ask if you can take a freepacked canopy to terminal is going to have no such information, skill, or ability. On top of that, he's probably going to shoe-horn it into a skydiving rig for the jumps, so the most likely result is going to be a slammer is he takes it all the way. He significantly reduces the risk of that, injury or damage to the canopy by dumping it with as little airspeed as he can manage. This isn't about what you could do if given the ideal conditions, it's about what he should do if he's going to jump a canopy and configuration new to him. What you, or any other experienced BASE jumper could do with a BASE specific container is of no consequence to this situation.

Why would you take it top terminal? You realize that the whole purpose of a BASE canopy is to open fast, right? Just jump and dump it from 2500 ft, any higher and you'll be under canopy forever.

There has been considerable debate about the effectiveness of a hook knife in certain situations. One poster even went so far as to intentionally rig a malfuction (on a three canopy system) to see if he could clear it with a hook knife. Even though he knew the mal was coming, and knew what the mal would be, he was not succesful in retrieving and using the hook knife during the malfunction. The debate went on to ask who, if anyone, had actually used a hook knife in an emergency situation and the responses were sparse. There may have been one jumper with a semi-applicable story, and a couple of secind hand stories. The final verdict was the a hook knife is a good thing to have around, but it's actual usefulness is limited. That discussion was involving a jumper under a partially open canopy, not a jumper still in freefall. Consider for a minute, how long it might take you on the ground to locate, extract, and then use your hook knife to saw through a bridle (which is two layers of webbing plus the kill line). Now consider doing that while falling at 200 ft. per second. How many seconds did it take? How much altitude would that be? Is that altitude you really want to give up? Consider that once you're done cutting your bridle, you're still stuck pulling your reserve. Why not just save yourself the 1000+ ft you would eat trying to cut the bridle, and dump the reserve. Are you familiar with the freebag system? It's designed for this type of situation, but I doubt it would even come into play. Consider that by the time the bridle goes down to your foot, there's not enough lenght left to get the PC anywhere near your reserve container. The chances of clean PC launch are very high, and failing that, you still have your freebag to help you out. WTF are you missing? It turns out, quite a bit. Perhaps a complete understanding of the gear and the situation presented? Maybe you'r missing the two minutes it would have taken to think through your suggestion? On top of that, I have to say that your jump numbers aren't helping. If you really have 420 jumps that's one thing, but I highly doubt it. If you like the green, that's your choice, but when you announce it everyone with your little jump number joke, it doesn't help your credibility. You come across like a pothead who doesn't know what he's talking about.

That shit looks good to me. The first one was right on the money. There's nothing better than the slider letting you call the shots. The second one looked fine up until the end. I don't know what it was, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but you did something to make it come around on you like that. It was probably the way you weighted the harness, and I don't think it was intentional. You said it's 'exciting' and I think your tyring to 'fly' it around with the harness during the opening, or just tensing up your body. I used to do the same thing when I first started jumping a Velo. I put thousands of jumps on a Stilleto 107, and was so comfortable with the openings, I would litterally toss the PC and forget it. When I switched to the Velo, which opens different that the Stiletto, I started to really focus on the openings and trying to make sense of it. After awhile I started to relax more and just let it go, and that was the key. Littlerally like freefall, you just have to relax. Maybe take a deep breath or something, but it wants to open, so let it. You could downsize the slider if you want it to open faster, but I don't think that's what you want. I'd be happy if every opening for the rest of my life was like either of those. I'll take slow and steady over anything close to fast and/or hard anyday, all day long.

Forget about your tunnel skills for now, and just learn how to skydive. Go to the tunnel all you want and have a blast, but that's not skydiving. There are far more important things to learn during your AFF jumps than fine-tuned belly flying skills. When it comes to skydiving, all you really need as far as body position goes is to able to get/remain stable for deployment, everything else it just extra. Safety in and around the aircraft, spotting, deployment, emergency procedures, and canopy control are all for more important than fine tuned belly skills. Focus on what your instructors tell you to focus on and forget about the other stuff. If something is important, they'll teach you. Once you're past AFF, developing your skills is just a matter of volume and currency. Jump/tunnel a lot and often. However. always keep in mind the 'important' skydiving skills I outlined above. No matter how much tunnel time you have, and how sharp your belly skills are, you only build those 'important' skills one jump at a time. Don't mistake flying skill for skydiving skill, and make sure you give those factors their due consideration.

I wanted so badly to be done with you on this subject, but your words drew me back in. Your crazy, crazy, words....but I digress (not really, just wanted to say it before you did). We who? This is not the military, and we don't have a 'jumpmaster' standing by the door telling us what to do. There is no guarantee that there will be an experienced and reliable jumper on board every load with a lwo pass to remind the jumpers to mind the tail. The only real guarantee is to remove the risk of the tailstrike but raising the tail. So let's think about it. Let's be more realistic with the training. Let's treat people like adults, and tell them they failed when they fail, and that their life will end if they don't 'man up' and start paying attention to the details of their situation. Let's turn the tide, and mold the training to produce the jumpers we want to find in between us and the door in an emergency. We're still left with a contingent of jumpers who had their hands held, their tears wiped from their crying eyes and were told that everything would be OK, and now we have to make sure that everything will indeed be Ok by raising the tail. SIDENOTE? Forget all the personal responsibility, legal liability, and USPA positioning. If a tailstrike is possible on a climbing pass and raising the tail would eliminate that risk, isn't the prudent move just to raise the tail? As you correctly pointed out, a DZ is a business, and any costs related to raising the tail can simply be passed on to the consumer, and let the law of supply and demand do it's thing. It's not like we're rationing food or water in limited supply, it's just the price of jumps. Costs go up, prices go up. It's the perfect crime (solution, the perfect solution).

I hope they said 'Arch'. That's what you should have done. Everything else is trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Just avoid the bad situation in the first place, and arch.

Not to be harsh, but do the fucking math, and don't pick a reserve based on pack volume. If your profile is correct, you should know better.

A problem? It depends who you ask. The USPA certainly doesn't have a problem with making skydiving more accessible to the general public. Membership (and dues $) are up, and the more DZs that it can support only makes for even more members. Gear manufacturers and DZOs, likewise, have no problem with catering to a wider audience. The trouble is that we are running out of 'safety nets' for people who shouldn't be skydiving. Today it's the climbing low pass. Let's get rid of that, and then we won't have a fatality or paralyzed jumper every couple of years. Sooner or later we're going to make skydiving as safe as it can ever be. Equipment, airplanes, policies, and procedures will all be as good as they will ever be, maybe even 'perfect'. However, you still have the individual jumper up there, making decisions on their own, where the USPA, engineers from Cessna and DeHaviland, and Bill Booth cannot help them. Maybe that's where the 'talent pool' of jumpers will find it's own level. Of course that level will be a far cry from the 'personal responsibility' that many seem to be crowing for today. It will be a reflection of the hand-holding, nanny state (thanks Robin) that we will have created. The solution, of course, is to stop that, and get back to the reality of this which is that you have to be personally responsible for yourself, or something is going to bite you, be it a climbing low pass or otherwise. That's all just pie-in-the-sky talk. What we actually have to deal with now are the jumpers currently in AC across the country, and you just can't trust every single one of them to do the right thing, so we have to pull the power and push the nose over. For now.