dudeman17

What do we know?... He asks for two parachutes, clarifies two backs and two fronts. He has at least a basic idea how they are. Does he use simplistic terms because that's all he knows? Because that's what he figures the people he's asking will know? Because he's trying to obfuscate a deeper knowledge? All are possible, none can be confirmed. (Again, if he's an experienced sport jumper and comes off like one, that seriously narrows the suspect pool he's trying to get lost in.) When the rigs are delivered, the lack of D-rings would indicate that they are not mains. Does he know about the cards, or does he just find them? Cannot be known. He blows off the directions and seems to know how to put them on. Does that indicate paratroop training? Experienced jumper? Aircrew training? He hung out at a dz the week before and observed? Cannot be known. My logic indicates there is no way to know what his experience is beyond a basic understanding. Am I missing something?

Not necessarily. Again, did he check the cards knowingly, or did he just come across them as he looked over what they gave him? If he did know gear, there are other differences. Mains use bigger canopies than bailout rigs, so they are thicker, bulkier, and heavier. Other than the D-rings, there is other hardware on mains that are not on bailouts. That picture you posted, either the picture or the rig in it is upside down, but that hardware seen on the lower right is a capewell, the method to release the canopy from the harness, there would be one of those on each shoulder. Yes on mains, not on bailouts. I think those came into use in the early 60's, so if his experience is earlier than that, maybe or maybe not he is familiar with them. If he is of military experience, he should know that most military mains would be set up for static line, he did not specify between that or freefall in his request. On freefall mains, the ripcord is usually on the right, on bailouts the left. I don't think it can be definitively determined what his experience was.

What is the timeline on this? When (what year) was Gunther contacted by 'Cooper'? According to Clara, when did Cooper die?

Apparently my civilian side was overriding. I learned something and I stand corrected. You did. It occurred to me that an instructor I used to work with was a military rigger in the 80's and 90's, so I asked him about it. The military documents, double documents, and over-documents everything they do. Not only do they keep log books in their lofts of everything they do, including main pack jobs, as I surmised the other day, but indeed military mains do have packing cards.

No. Not mains. For both military and civilian, reserves and bailout rigs, emergency use chutes, have cards. I have never seen nor heard of a main having a card. The card documents what the canopy is, and it's history - when it was used, any repairs or alterations, and when it was inspected and repacked so the user can determine if the current pack job is 'in date'. Like Divalent said, mains are just used too much to try to keep up with all that on paperwork. And it's not necessary. The owner will generally have an idea how many jumps are on the canopy, but that can pretty much be estimated by an inspection. Occasionally they need a repair, and one might replace the pilot chute or the lines when necessary, like getting new tires on your car, but the need for that can be determined simply by inspection.

What he said ^^. Thems is the regs. In Cooper's day I think it was rare for someone other than the jumper to pack their main, other than for students. These days it's common to have packers on the dz to pack your main, It's kind of a chore, many people prefer to pay to have it done. But no, mains don't have cards. In the military, if a team of 'riggers' pack a bunch of paratroop rigs, I'm guessing they keep logbooks of who packs what (even mains) in case there's an incident.

Yes. I don't think we can determine what he knew. If he knows gear and knows those are bailout rigs, he might be checking the cards to determine what kind and size of canopies are inside. If he doesn't know gear, he might just be checking them over and come across the cards.

My experience is civilian, but there is a lot of crossover, a lot of military jumpers also sport jump and I have known many of them over the years. When I learned in '79, many of my instructors were from the military. Military courses can be exceedingly detailed, a lot of their First Jump Courses in that day lasted a week (before the first jump), and the students would definitely know 'mains' and 'reserves', and probably the make and model of the gear they were jumping, and maybe the serial numbers of their particular rig. Yeah, that last part was kind of an exaggerated joke, but the point is valid. I don't think experienced jumpers from either genre would commonly use 'front and back' over 'main and reserve' amongst each other. They might use 'front mount reserve' to differentiate from piggyback gear when those were coming out. And bailout rigs might be front, chest, seat, or back to differentiate between the types of those, none of which are mains. Bailout rigs do not have secondary reserves. Bailout rigs are reserves for the original intent of landing with the plane. I could go into more detail, but who gives a fuck, none of it sticks anyways. I don't think a conclusion can be made what Cooper's experience was based on the terminology he used. I think it's possible he was using generic terms based on who he was talking to, rather than where he came from. He was describing what he wanted to people who wouldn't know much about them. Indeed, if Cooper was an experienced sport jumper, he may have used generic terms in order to hide that fact, so as not to narrow down the suspect pool. Getting bailout rigs would not necessarily be a deal-killing death sentence. Those things are designed to save lives, and they do. Andrade's research into WW2 bailouts confirms this. And some of them are steerable. ----------------- I don't make posts with the intent of backing up some people or slamming others. I just try to clarify parachuting logistics based on decades of experience, as current as yesterday. Some time ago I wrote a post about camaraderie based on shared interest. The way some of you can bitch and snipe at each other, I'm starting to think that we owe Blevins an apology.

For that type of gear, separated mains and reserves, no the mains would not have a card. Sport gear today, they all do have cards because the mains and reserves are part of the same rig, the cards are pertinent to the reserves. I don't think it can be known whether he knew the difference or not, because we don't know his experience, how much he knew. He did seem to know something about them, he said he didn't need the instructions and appeared to know how to put it on. That would lean towards him knowing. Why didn't he ask for more? Hadn't he already complained about time, wanted to 'get the show on the road'? So does he want to wait an hour or two (?) while they looked for more? Or just make do with what he's got. Since he can't be planning on landing in a specific field, I don't think so. I'd rather not, but as opposed to spending significant time in prison or being killed in a raid, I probably would.

Geez, ya miss a few days... The semantics may be of my doing. Flyjack has this right, though. Though they are not normally called 'reserves', I have called bailout rigs reserves here in describing the difference between them and mains. Mains are considered 'sporting equipment' and are not regulated by the FAA. Reserves and bailout rigs are considered 'emergency use' and are regulated. Mains are designed for constant use and better flight performance, differences that might increase the malfunction rate. Emergency use chutes are designed for opening reliability, they are tested to standards, and they are required to be packed by a licensed rigger, thus having packing cards and seals. Mains do not have packing cards or seals. Mains have the D-rings to attach the reserve. Bailout rigs do not have D-rings because they are the 'reserve', the 'main' being the aircraft. In any jumping or 'potential' jumping situation, the idea is that you want to have an emergency chute that you do not intend to use. For intentional jumps, whether sport or military, you have a main that gives you better control and landings, and a reserve in case it malfunctions. In an 'aircrew' situation, where you don't intend to jump, you have the bailout rig. For civilian use, that might be aerobatics or experimental aircraft. For military, you might have to bail if your aircraft gets shot. Does that help? I thought I answered this the other day. It depends. If Cooper was familiar with gear, he would have. If he wasn't, he might not have.

If he's over farmland, as Kamkisky suggests, with a lot of open flat area, that bodes in his favor. I can't see much scenario where the money gets badly damaged on landing, unless he full terminal impacts right on top of it on rocks. And it wasn't soaked with body fluids? I had to laugh for poor Mac the other day. He says he's never jumped before, and he exits at over 300 mph. You can tell me if I'm right, but I'm guessing that exit threw him ass over teakettle several times. (And he managed to pull and get open.)

Of course this has been considered, and discussed. Did he know? Hard to say. He seemed to know something about them, but how much? He looked at the packing cards. Did he know to look at them, or did he just come across them as he was checking out the rigs? If he knew much at all about rigs he would know they were bailout rigs and not mains. He probably wouldn't know whether they were steerable or not before using one. Some reserves were, some not. What do you think would change if he knew? At that point he was pretty much committed, and just had to make do with what they gave him. Whether they were steerable or not, in one sense wouldn't make a whole lot of difference, in another way it makes all the difference. Where it doesn't make a difference - There is no way he jumped into a specific predetermined spot. That would require cooperation with the pilot to determine a precise exit point. But, consistent with Kamkisky's theory, if he knew what direction he was headed, knew what areas he was going over, and could recognize light cues from the air, he could reasonably put himself into a general area. No round canopies of that era, even sport mains, had very much flight performance or forward speed, so he wasn't going to turn 'general area' into a specific predetermined field. Where it makes all the difference - As I've said before, my bet is that he all but assuredly ended up under an open canopy. The question is whether he is injured on landing. And his ability to steer away from obstacles such as trees, boulders, a house, a fence..., and into an open area, would make a whole lot of difference for that.

I'm trying to define this. Is this a photograph that someone took in the airplane or the terminal? Did a witness have their own sketch done? ??

Are you saying that you have a photograph of Cooper?

I was thinking more like Cooper's grudge was that he was up for the part of the bad guy but lost out. "I'll show them", he thought, and as was the character's wont of taunting the cops, he purloined the detective's shades. ----------------- Autocorrect is persistent but not consistent.