Mr.Nuke

I think you are wrong.

How many pages are we talking about?

by Orchard? are you sure? I thought that was the wind up by Ariel. I was assuming down by Orchard it would be more like the PDX winds. I suppose the Orchard winds have been posted before, but I've lost track. The winds posted by Ckret were for Orchard. And that isn't too different from the PDX winds is it? I have never seen a wind direction from PDX that night only wind speeds. For PDX, I posted wind information averaged over '61-'90, to help give a high probability guess at the PDX wind direction that night. We had a discussion how it was high probablity, given the measured speeds, and rain/storm, that it was SE I also published an NOAA weather map that showed S for the day at PDX on 11/24/71 I think Crket has winds aloft for PDX too somewhere in that file...

by Orchard? are you sure? I thought that was the wind up by Ariel. I was assuming down by Orchard it would be more like the PDX winds. I suppose the Orchard winds have been posted before, but I've lost track. The winds posted by Ckret were for Orchard. And that isn't too different from the PDX winds is it? I have never seen a wind direction from PDX that night only wind speeds.

You could feel those two turns without a compass. The one thing if we are going with this theory that I would like to have is a stopwatch though, but like a compass in this case that is more of a backup tool to reconfirm what you suspect. It doesn't get much "easier" than this section of v-23 to do what Sluggo is suggesting. Stopwatch doesnt help if air velocity varies wildly as in Sluggo's tic chart ? Sure it does. I calculate approximately 16 minutes covering a distance of 45.45 nautical miles giving me an average ground speed of 170.6 knots. That being said over 16 minutes if we increase the ground speed from 170 to say 190 the plane only covers an additional 7 nautical miles. All the stopwatch would be used for in this case is to do a quick mental calculation to confirm that the turn I am feeling is in the approximate spot. Again, with turns this wide you wouldn't need either a stopwatch or a compass though. This is the perfect route for a poor man's dead reckoning. As for the wide variation in speeds, as Sluggo has explained their is a degree of error in these calculations, but it is the best/only source of data to go off of. Actual variations likely weren't as high as some of the minute to minute calculations you can make from the data. Remember though, that 305 was being hand flown. The 727 had no auto-throttle and the pilots were very busy that night. I would expect some speed variations but in the long run it averages out.

But if you agree that there is no choice, but V-23 then why did he need to say it? If he wanted V-23 and didn't explicitly say so, it had nothing to do with the path of the flight being tracked. Heck if this was the case he knew basically where the track of the plane would be. And knowing the track has done very little to solve the case in first 37 years. Did you know about victor airways and jet routes before the discussion here or taking on the case? I tend to think the at or below 10,000, flaps at 15 showed some degree of aviation knowledge (not necessarily much). However, if Cooper would've said you must fly V-23 it would immediately reveal significantly more information about himself than what needed to be revealed. It also would've changed the course of the investigation. Focus would've immediately turned to pilots, air traffic controllers, jump masters, and anyone else who would be familiar with aviation. I apologize I thought I did. The nukester

You could feel those two turns without a compass. The one thing if we are going with this theory that I would like to have is a stopwatch though, but like a compass in this case that is more of a backup tool to reconfirm what you suspect. It doesn't get much "easier" than this section of v-23 to do what Sluggo is suggesting.

Snowman said: I disagree, we can get into this more if you want though. To make it more accurate you need to include the Northwest/Orient Flight OPS and ATC. I'll explain when we get to Ckret's quote. That being said If you include the two groups I added you will end up with V-23 every time and if you don't someone isn't doing their job right. I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. This isn't a case of this route being flown regularly. But just because they don't "all take the same flight path" doesn't mean you can predict V-23 would be taken in this case. Ckret said: I disagree to a certain extent. The route first gets discussed on page 61 of the ATC transcripts pdf. Ground Control mentions that the first enroute leg has an MOA of 15,000 feet on J-5. Why they would even mention J-5 I don't know, but it really isn't important either, because due to the MOA and proximately of Mt. Hood, and the fact the flight would be below 18,000, J-5 would never been taken (Or any Jet Route for that matter). They likely were just trying to help by looking at the most direct route. In response to this Scott says that they may have to go come in from the coast on another route possibly. He advises the ground controller that he is going to contact NW flight ops. A couple of transmissions later Scott advises ground control that the company is working on the clearance. ATC suggests V-23 the pilots relay the suggestion to NW flight ops and it is ultimately agreed upon quickly. So after a long winded post I guess what I am saying is does it really matter that the company was looking at the coastal route? ATC (more familiar with the area) advised V-23 and all parties agreed. Not for certain unless he had some sort of radio receiver, which is highly unlikely. He could've had a fairly good idea that his restrictions would dictate the route though. As I said above they were directed to that flight path because ATC suggested it would be the best route once they pulled out the low altitude enroute charts. I'm not sure how involved a commercial pilot was involved with the flight plan in 1971, but it isn't much at all anymore.

I still say the more important question is what did he have to lose. If Cooper had said "fly below 10,000, with gear and flaps down, oh and hey I see my previous two requirements dictate you should take V-23 so please fly V-23... Then it becomes very difficult to say that he did not have aviation experience or at the minimum spent significantly more effort planning things than what people thought. I guess my thought is if you planned the route knowing that there is a 99% chance your demands will lead to V-23, why blow the ambiguity it and say fly V-23. I understand demanding V-23 guarantees the route, which seems like an important step for someone planning a specific jump, but I am still of the opinion that he basically did demand V-23. Whether he knew he did or not is a different story.

It's true Cossey held a private pilots license.

As others said when the issues was raised a couple of pages ago this is correct. In order to take off you obviously need a higher angle of climb to get in the air. This often means the tail is going to come fairly close to the runway on takeoff. With the stairs down it is pretty much a given that it would've lead to tailstrike. Here is visual evidence showing you why. a 727 takeoff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2WeKH04who a 727-100 landing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WloSnR35IU

Good deal. If you make it to Omaha let me know and we'll celebrate this great step forward.

That is strange, because by the press conference he was identifying himself has F/O. You can call him first or third, but I don't think it makes a difference he was sitting next to Scott. What do you have on who was actually flying the plane? The traditional account is that Rataczak was doing the flying...

Now you are just trying to be confusing . The normal method of ordering a three member crew would be 1) Captain 2) First Officer (right seat pilot) 3) Second Officer (Flight Engineer). This is from the Minneapolis Tribune's coverage of the event. http://ww3.startribune.com/blogs/oldnews/archives/188 I don't know why your files would list Rataczak as "third" officer, but if you agree that Anderson is second officer (flight engineer), that puts Ratazak in the First Officer's seat.

Let me preface this by saying I appreciate your efforts in bringing this case back to life, and the following my come across as more cynical or negative than I intend it to be. I agree with you here to the point that I don't necessarily buy the Portland area as part of Cooper's plan. However, the second part of your statement sounds like what you "accuse" people of not having been involved in an investigation doing Thinking about how they would've done it or what they would've done in a given situation. I don't disagree with you assertion, but it seems to be almost what you are doing here. If we use this logic, if Cooper wanted to only use one parachute (or one plus another as a money bag) then he would've only asked for one or two chutes, right? I will agree that he would've given away nothing in regard to the jump, but I think what Sluggo and other's with aviation experience and some without are trying to tell you is he indirectly did dictate a flight path. Perhaps to keep everyone involved including the FBI guessing. If so 37 years later and still looking, I'd say he did a pretty good job. No matter what side you fall into on the experienced versus non experienced debate, I think there is a fairly clear picture that Cooper gave away as little information as possible. The point in leaving the "critical detail" so open ended is that the vagueness has been one of the FBI's and others main points that Cooper didn't care where the plane went, and didn't know what he was doing. If Cooper would've said "Hey Captain Scott, I would like you to fly 15 degrees flaps, gear down, do not exceed 10,000 feet, and oh please fly V-23 to PDX," your opinion would've likely changed. If you at least accept the possibility that someone could've tried to loosely plan the jump, than why limit yourself to planning for only one route? The coastal route (either v-204 or v-27) was unlikely to begin due to the range constraints associated with Cooper's demands. Had 305 taken the coastal route it would've been apparent to someone who was "watching" that the coastal route and not V-23 was being taken. V-120 is too easterly, V-2 the same, V-4 leads to possible terrain issues. That leaves you with V-23. As for point-to-point, Sluggo may need to correct on my on this, but I'm not sure how common "point to point" or direct to navigation was in the 1970's. And prior to the advent of GPS in aviation given the weather conditions it still would've involved some sort of Ground tracking be it VOR sites or some other means. Nor would Cooper need to direct said flight plan. You don't need to see the ground or even look out the window to tell where you are going in this case. If the plane had taken the coastal route their would be a significant right banking turn after takeoff.

For my first post I hate to question the FBI agent, but are sure? Everything I've ever read or seen on the case has Captain Scott, First Officer Rataczak and flight engineer Anderson, with Rataczak being the PIC.