snowmman

I just wanted to show how the Norjak book created or propagated the myth that the CIA actually used 727's for airdrops in Vietnam. I left two pages in the scan because there's other interesting stuff. But the myth (which we all know is keying off of the reference to boxes down the stairs in the transcripts) is on the 2nd page, 4th paragraph up from the bottom. I have no idea why they would put that in the book. I suspect they were guessing based on the transcript also. Maybe it shows that the FBI was operating using under-investigated myths? I don't know. There's been a lot of stuff published on this thread on all the ownerships/uses of the 727's that Air America actually bought/used. I agree with 377 on this..there's no evidence that says 727s were ever used for air drops. Now there is stuff that says Air America may have "asked about it" when they put their orders in. And Ckret seems to have confirmed testing by Boeing. But Norjak seems to be wrong here in saying they actually occurred. So I do read Norjak with an analytical eye, aware that it was co-authored by a non-FBI person, who may have done most of the work? (edit) I just laughed re-reading it. The phrase "the hard-edged skyjacker" was used. I really wonder how much H. liked this notion of macho-man Cooper for the profile.

I wanted to post these from Norjak, cause I thought they were a little better than the pdf Ckret posted, and the color snaps we have from the video. I think you can see the sled on the stairs in the first photo. Only reason the stairs are fully down I guess. No new info here, just possibly better shots. The stair fabric no longer looks tattered. They must have fixed them between Reno and the test? And I guess the fabric doesn't "instantly" tatter...since they look okay in the first photo. (edit) made me think of the question: the wind turbulence during the test may not have matched the winds present during Cooper's flight. Shouldn't matter though.

hi n467us. us non-skydivers got to show we can layer some weird kind of inside baseball jokes sometimes, huh? so we don't always seem like total losers? Actually it does make us seem like total losers now that I think of it. I can't even begin to explain it. I'll have to leave to sluggo, or maybe jo! A good example of cross-agency cooperation on the thread! See, any fool can google some text. It takes a real psychotic to recognize conspiracy images on demand!

two things - a little dig at Sluggo's claim that he's read everything: the Da Nang video had already been posted to this thread In fact, where did Mr. Nuke go? - for georger and sluggo: Attached are the 4 relevant pages about Bohan's "testimony". While there obviously needs to be some comments about accuracy of his reminiscing, like what year did the discussion with H. happen? plus others...I'll just provide the pages as is. (attached) (edit) it also notes that Bohan says he was listening in to "all" of the communications that night. Be interesting to hear what he remembers. Wonder if he was ever interviewed thoroughly. (edit) also note in bohan 1.jpg a repeat of the claim that additional fragments of the bills were found up to 3 feet under the sand. This was in the initial news articles. I suspect the co-author was quoting from news articles here, although you would have thought H. would proof read it? So who knows. Maybe fragments were found 3 ft under. We really don't have good info on the money find. It's all contradictory. (edit) "right on my nose" 166 degrees etc is on top left of bohan 2. But read 1 then 2 for continuity. (all 4 pages are interesting) (edit) on a different note, there is an interesting description elsewhere in the book of how they flew v23 apparently in 3 aircraft abreast, while searching. I could scan that. I've never seen any description of searching in, or downriver in, the columbia right after 11/24/71 though. Be nice to know exactly what was done.

Hey Sluggo, I know this is OT, but I couldn't help responding to your offhand mention of the Mars Climate Orbiter problem. Like your wind direction example, the metric vs english issue, is actually just a symptom of the real issue(s). Although NASA was forced to call it "root cause" because of their procedures. On your nuke wind direction thing, I immediately thought "well obviously the "system" that relied on that chart had never been tested". I didn't really care what was on the chart. NASA actually did a pretty nice investigation of the full set of causes. The list of eight contributing causes is more useful than that final metric vs english thing. phase 1 report available here: http://www.space.com/media/mco_report.pdf After reading that, you could argue that the real issues were too small an organization...i.e. they used some stuff without proper verification or testing of feedback...they were understaffed etc. Or just not a good enough organization for the problem they were trying to solve. But it was a hard problem, so no second guessing by me. People blame big organizations wrongly sometimes, I think. People like to think big things can be accomplished with small groups, but sometimes you need big organizations. Or excellently performing small groups. Any time you have more than 1 person it's a group. So groups are inherent. And they can scale well. The numbers they used were wrong by a factor of ~4. There's always reasons why wrong numbers can be generated. The real issues are not the bad numbers, but why they weren't caught. I can extend this further, to say why I really don't care if I inject "static" or not into this discussion. If the process is robust, it rejects static correctly. If we're worried about static, then we should instead be worried about the process. (because it's untested). Have you been reading what the FBI did on the sequencing of all the mutated anthrax colonies. Gotta say, it sure seems like the FBI guys got their shit together on that investigation. [eventually] http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/812/1 Read this somewhere "How come we constantly accuse the government of being incompetent, except when it comes to hiding the details of visiting aliens, who decided it made the most sense to first secretly contact our government"

That's weird. He looks like this guy. This photo fell out of the night vision gear manual that was left behind on 305.

I had promised to find the better photo of Ingram with the money in 1986 after the court case was resolved, with the two folders I had mentioned and the plastic bag of bills. (leading to my erroneous statement about what the FBI might have) This picture is from the Norjak book. You can see the two folders. I'm not sure it's best for counting the black bills (the other one I snapped from a video might be better). But it's more info. (attached) It's the full picture, I think, that was cropped for the news article that Brian has at his money web site.

In H's Norjak book, he basically states the same theory as sluggo as the wind being wrong for the prediction. He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX. It's Himmelsbach himself, raising the question that the wind was wrong. We've never discussed this pilot and airliner behind 305 before.

Short newspaper article attached. I've mentioned Hubbard before. This is from 1/7/71, Valley Morning Star, in Texas Hubbard was a bit over the top. But in the article he notes a couple of things I didn't realize before. He interviewed 20 hijackers. So before pooh-poohing it, remember he was there in '71, and he talked to 20 guys who hijacked. Note the references to astronaut fantasies, unemployed, , wanting to be pilots. Twelve had taken flying or parachute training. (read the article) And this article was before hijackers were parachuting. Remember Cooper was the first to actually make a jump. We've also mused about his interactions with Tina, which Hubbard has opinions about. I know Ckret and others have said it was just about the money. But I'm a little with Hubbard on this...i.e it was about the drama and the money. I'm musing, like I said, about Cooper just being a natural progression of all the hijackers that were doing their thing then... (edit) "neurotically involved in space flight" brings back the weird possible "Dan Cooper" connection.. (edit) another Hubbard quote "A skyjacker doesn't have to be any smarter than a nine-year-old who knows how to use bluff." from http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,918419,00.html

Hey, we can't even agree on whether Cooper said 15 degree flaps. Ckret said no, other info says he did after a 2nd question. I posted a lot of stuff about the jump/extortions that followed, because I think a jump hijack was inevitable given the sheer number of hijacks happening at the time, and Cooper was nothing special...therefore he'd be more alike the ones that followed, than different. But I got no responses to all that info...like there was no way it could apply. I think this idea of Cooper being an aviation engineer is bogus and has no data backing it. The idea that he is local to WA is just a random guess..no good data there either. Any random idea about Cooper is reasonable. Confessions are devalued, since we have at least two now, both for apparently no good reason. I know 377 supplied prototype night vision stuff to Cooper, which is the whole reason he's on the thread. I got confused cause I thought that stuff didn't show up in Vietnam until '71-73 but then I found the attached..date shows prototypes obviously available in '70 I had thought the Hughes "Quiet One" helicopters were involved (the 500P's) but have ruled them out. Black helicopter fans, stand down! And drugs, who knows? well the High Incident guys in North Hollywood used phenobarbital, and what I hadn't realized is that they had already amassed $1.5M from 2 prior robberies? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_hollywood_shootout and it also makes perfect sense to work in a reference, in this mother of all threads. I think the main thing I've learned about this Cooper thing, is that it was petty crime. There was nothing special about Cooper. So he jumped. No big deal. It was inevitable that someone would, in the context of the times, and the rate of hijack crimes. The best we could do is to drop this assumption of high drama around Cooper. He was just Joe Blow. In terms of theories, I can't think of any that make sense now other than him landing in the Columbia near PDX. I really want to hear other theories, other than Jo's. I was off base on all the plant theory nonsense. I got spooked at the DNA advances from the Ivins case. I'm burying my wood chipper. I'm told the FBI never digs below 7' because of OSHA concerns w/trench cave-ins. Do we have any good data on that? (edit) Jo: Kurt wasn't suicide either: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/crime_scene.shtml

Sluggo, you kinda of derided georger's mention of a possible "quickee map". I'd like to explore that. Do you think any search area was defined on a map for use the day after the jump? I mean there was some searching started immediately. They didn't focus in with the '72 map until later. What map was used, or how was the search zone delineated? Do you think it was oral communications? Do you think maybe if there was a map, it was discarded over time? Or ckret hasn't revealed it? or ?? I'm just wondering why you dismissed georger's mention. He was obviously referring to my posts about what Tosaw said based on his interviews with Soderlind. Are you saying you don't believe that information was accurate? That's fine, it's just not clear what you were trying to say, or refute. Oh, and if you have a theory about where Cooper jumped and how the money got to Tena Bar, it might be a good new thing to explore. Can you share it?

thanks. Yes that's the story I remember you giving way back when. We kind of started diverging from that with talk of the a container on the jump, and I just wanted to clarify that there's nothing to suggest that scenario.

okay, we've got a lot of confusion, I think. there was some dialog introduced way back, that suggested that maybe the 2nd chest pack was used as a money container on the jump in some way, as opposed to just having the money bag tied on. I think that was kind of weak, and is probably myth. I know I reported the Scott story that was odd, but I'm assuming that it was just wrong (Scott didn't see anyhow?) If Cooper did use a chest container for money on the jump, what happened to the 2nd chest canopy? It would have to be removed, and probably should have been on the plane (with the other one?). I think the story of Cooper trying to get the money into the chest that was found open, might make sense. But he didn't take that chest with him. So the money was probably just in the money bag. Now the problem with rust, is that the money bag was supposed to stay intact, to protect the money over the years, and also "disperse" it in a physically close way on Tina Bar. The money bag supposedly didn't have any eyelets for drawstring at the top. Just open bag. So it wouldn't cause rust. If the bag is holding together to provide the protection/localization of bundles, then it's also likely protecting against rust from random metal stuff, until the deposit on Tina Bar? If it is indeed rust, then it tears apart a bunch of other theorizing about the money, I think. Unless metal existed under the money on Tena Bar. I had a thought it could be from metal rimmed sunglasses. But I doubt cooper would have stuck them in with the money? Also the rims were probably plastic. Also, I'm thinking the black is from chemicals in the silt in the Columbia, not just from the bills. (edit) the ends of the theorized #6 dry cell sort of match the circle diameter also. But unlikely to be mixed with the money.

Hi Sluggo. Why do you think Ckret was being honest? Do you think there was no documentation of the data behind the flight path tracking other than the hand drawn map, or do you believe the information was lost over time? I find it hard to believe there is no text anywhere describing the flight path map creation. I don't really follow your thinking. Or is it that there's probably text somewhere, but Ckret doesn't have time to look for it? If you believe that a map of this type would just be "in a box" with no documentation in a report, anywhere, then your opinion of the FBI investigation must be pretty low, which doesn't make sense to me. Was information lost or disposed of over time? My reading of the Norjak book leaves me feeling there was no real investigation, just the search and following some tips, based on "hunches" of which tips were good or bad. There was so much going on then, that I could imagine it was too hard to do a better investigation. But it would be better when thinking about this thing, to understand if there was a real investigation or not. I lean towards "not". That's fine though.

Sluggo, in this post of yours, the attachments show the point "non-orphan 1" on the flight path, as agreeing with the detail that georger showed a while back, that I agreed with. Your previous flight path didn't have the tick mark in that place. If you agree with that tick mark, the next question is "what tick mark is before that one on the flight path" If you disagree with the one I mentioned on the N side of the Columbia, it seems to make that leg too long for the probable ground speed, unless the plane was aided by being more aligned with the wind. georger seemed to think the tick on the N side of the columbia, was more of an X than a +, so wasn't sure. It's important to resolve, because it affects the likelihood of Cooper landing in the Columbia. In any case, the jpeg you just posted, isn't in agreement with the larger flight path maps at your site, because of agreeing to the tick I'm calling "non-orphan 1". ..actually, the presence of orphan 1-4 seems to reinforce the likelihood of the non-orphan-1 placement being correct, as you showed in your post here. your prior tick placement: i.e. http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Analysis%20of%201%20min%20Error%20South%201971.jpg

a while back, I posted a snap from a video, that showed a second folder of bills (individual, not bundles) plus some in a plastic bag. I assumed this meant the FBI had more bills than the ones Ckret showed. I was especially curious because there was one or two additional "black" bills in that second folder, whereas we only see 3 in the known FBI folder. I've since found another video, that showed the same two folders and plastic bag. However, Brian Ingram is in the video, and he's at the age when the court case was resolved ('86). i.e. the video was taken when they did a press event giving Brian his share of the money. So it appears that in '86 there were two folders and a plastic bag, with mostly complete bills, Brian probably got the plastic bag and 2nd folder, maybe with some others too. What's interesting is that it means maybe Brian has a black bill or two, still. None of the ones he recently sold were black. I know, I know, bogus detail that no one but me cares about. But I slagged Ckret for holding back on us, and now it looks like I was wrong. Sorry. I had also said this affected the total count, since the FBI would have more than the 13-14? So now it does sound like the one folder, that Ckret has shown, is probably all they have. I can't find the video right now, but attached a news article that shows Brian in '86 with the plastic bag w/bills that I was talking about. I also attached the video snap with the two folders and the plastic bag of bills that I posted before. p.s in '86 when Brian split with the insurance company (whose bills have disappeared over time), the lawyer for the ins. co. was Steve Rickles, an attorney for Royal Globe Insurance Co. Looking for a match, this guy might be that attorney http://www.rickles-law.com/rick.att.rickles.html

Hahneman is really amazing to me, profile-wise. Makes me think maybe the FBI created this new Cooper profile, based on Hahneman. Another photo (frontal) attached (date taken unknown). (look at it, and the previous one I posted before reading) Hahneman really makes me understand how I have no idea who Cooper could be, and that all these stereotypes about the kind of people that could do a jump+extortion hijack, are, well wrong. Himmelsbach's book seems to revel in the stereotype of a "macho-man", going so far as describing how he excluded one suspect because he was too "effeminate" Some more background detail culled from more newspapers. (a little bit of repeat info) Frederick William Hahneman born July 5, 1922. Honduran mother, Delia Pastore Ordonez. Late father William Frederick Hahneman of San Francisco. He was born in Puerto Castilla, Honduras, but he was a naturalized US citizen. Wife, Mary Jane Hahneman. Evidently no tipster? apparently FBI used biographical info hijacker gave the crew in the 20 hour hijack, and a photograph. Evidently turned himself in because rumor of dead or alive on reward, and he was afraid when FBI starting snooping around friends? Supposedly said "it was unjust that the United States put a price on my head without having been judged". Surrendered to US embassy with old childhood friend, Jose Gomez Rovelo, a Honduran engineer he supposedly went to for advice. Not clear when Hahneman moved to US as a kid. Described by crew as very calm and thorough during the hijacking. Composed during sentencing. The political motive claim may have been phony. Judge mentioned it during sentencing, and Hahneman interrupted and tried to stop him, but it may have been phony. Said he had given the money to Central American revolutionaries (lie? like the bank lie? money was eventually recovered by FBI). Attended a junior college in Mississippi before he joined the Army in 1943. Trained as radar operator and a flight crew member with "US Army Air Force" in WWII. I guess that is the correct name for it back in the 40's. Discharged as corporal in '46. FBI said he traveled widely and had lived in a number of foreign countries. His last known employment was as an electronics specialist with Philco in Vietnam. At one point in the hijacking, he allegedly told the crew that if there was any "hanky panky" he would fly the plane himself. The description of the DZ was that he jumped into "jungle". See prior post. Pleaded guilty to air piracy in exchanged for dropping other counts. Sentenced to life, with parole possible after 15 years. Min sentence at the time for hijack was 20 years, max death. Apparently didn't give up the money location though, although it was later recovered. On May 9, 1973 he was in federal penitentiary in Atlanta. 48 at the time of the hijack in May 6, 1972 (jump) Was described by former employers as a "low level" technician who for years has moved from one job to another all over the world. Apparently was away from home for years at a time? Son Frederick E., 21 in 1972, was a construction worker. 17 year old son John said he was home two weeks before the skyjacking. and was home the prior Christmas. Gave John fishing equipment from Far East. Carisle Kaiser, 79, Mrs. Hahneman's father described Frederick as "a cocky fellow" who he didn't approve of. He said he threw Hahneman out of his house in Easton 17 years ago. (that would be '55). William Small, next door neighbor, said Haneman was "brilliant, well versed on technical things". Small said he talked with him a great bit 8 years ago (that would be '64), found he didn't socialize much and didn't care to talk about "mundane" subjects, like baseball. Did talk about foreign trips..like to Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala. When the money was recovered (date in previous post), FBI wouldn't talk. "I am not at liberty to discuss the details of how or where the money was recovered" Alexander said. Although the Jacksonville FBI chief declined to answer a direct question, he indicated strongly the money was recovered some place in Florida. (edit) more on witnesses in the LZ area. Farmers in the area told government agents they saw a man sitting on the ground counting money before he disappeared into the countryside. Said the man's shoulder and hands were injured. They found harness and jumpsuit at that time. They thought the parachute may have been carried away by poor farmers. The man carried a back pack and a small suitcase and wiped sweat off his face with tissues. See prior post for the list of items he requested during the hijack. Agents said they found used tissues in the area.

-n467us: funny, I was thinking the same thing. -Norjak book mentions all the hijacks I'm giving detail on, but no detail. I was surprised at that, since Ckret played dumb when we mentioned McNally. I think co-author read newspaper articles at the time of the book writing. Heady's strength: He was a skydiver. Heady's weakness: He was a skydiver. (see USPA sticker) Robb Dolin Heady. Student at Western Nevada Community College. Part time employee of a parking lot at a Reno casino. Former member of the University of Nevada's Parachute Club. Friday, June 2, 1972. United Airlines. Jumped over Washoe Lake, about 20 miles south of the Reno airport. So the DZ was local, as was how he got on. The plane was NY to San Francisco, UAL 239. It had landed at Reno, and 24 passengers had just deplaned. The hijack started then. It was sunset. Heady, wearing a pillow case with slits for eyes, charged aboard the plane. Had a .357 Magnum. Two pilots + three stews as hostages. 4 hour hijack. (edit) He asked for and received two parachutes. Ransom was $200,000. (edit) supposedly fired a shot when he got impatient while they were getting money and "fixing" the engine. Money supposedly gotten from casinos? He shifted to a second UAL 727 after being told the first plane was low on fuel and had a bad engine. He jumped into darkness apparently from 14,000 ft. into remote sagebrush-covered hills near Lake Washoe, about 25 miles south of Reno. Arrested on east side of lake about 5:30 AM. They staked out a white Triumph sedan parked off the dirt road that runs off of Eastshore Rd in Washoe City. On the back was a sticker reading: "Member of U.S. Parachute Association" After a while, the officers observed Heady walk up the road toward the car and remove the car keys from under a rock. As he began to open the door, they arrested him. They found the parachute, gun and clothing nearby. He said he spent the night on the beach. He had injured his left elbow. Chest injury also. He had just gotten back from Vietnam in December and had been a paratrooper in Vietnam. Was a sport chutist according to his dad. 150 police were combing the area till he was found. Slim, blond-haired. Held gun to head of stew. Used two hostages as shields when moving between planes. Pilot didn't know he had jumped till stewardess told him. (I guess she saw?) Supposedly lost the bag of money when he pulled the rip. The bag had $155,000. He left $45,000 on the plane. FBI found the money on June 4, 1972. He may have cached it. Note: he had some jumping experience, but apparently not enough to realize he needed to tie the bag on? They made it sound like he was just holding the bag. Unclear. Pleaded guilty 8/25/72. He got 30 year sentence. Recommendation for parole after 10. So maybe he's out already. At trial, lawyer argued he had malaria/high fever overseas. Psych exam was ordered. photo of his arrest attached.

we're correct on all the previous F-106 detail. that's as stated on Sluggo's site. (377: I mentioned before how apparently the F-106 were pretty bad at downward radar in a cluttered terrain scenario. Do you know any more about that? And no doppler radar? I took that all to mean that any F-106 painting of 305 was pretty poor) The F-102's were additionally dispatched from Idaho Air National Guard, from Boise. But they didn't make contact. The T33 trainer jet was diverted to follow. Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump. Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot. Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305.... They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact. Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls. They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.

Well the corners have decomposition effects coming from two near edges, right? Sides, just one edge. Edge is most exposed to microbial action? (oxygen needs?) You could probably model this as the effect on a point, given distance from an edge. bundle top and bottom bills should have additional face/bottom wear beyond edge effects? also note some sides still have the brittle paper on them...not broke off. Remember: we have 3 stages of deterioration depending on the picture we look at: 1) as found 2) Ingram handling 3) 28 years of FBI storage. I was wondering if ALL the bills had the brittle edges when found, and they broke off due to the Ingrams (they had them 1-2 days before FBI got them?) I'm also wondering how much of the blackness/purpleness was present on 2/12/80 and how much appeared over the next 28 years. Note that none of the bills seen in the bundle photos are really black. We're told the 12 mini-bundles assemble into 3 bundles. While you can see how some should stack, it's unclear in full. My theory is that the black bills were all bottom-of-bundle bills, so are not visible in the 2/12/80 bundle photos.

[deferring the info on the Heady jump for a little bit] Norjak. Good book so far. Has it's weaknesses. Can see most of the info is just from the transcripts. But also see how Himmelsbach's book (had coauthor) created some of the myths. There are some details that might be worth discussing. (not finished yet) Sluggo: there is more detail on all the planes apparently involved in chase that night. (some after Portland). T-33 trainer w/contact is true (later). There was also another pair of fighters (F-102's) dispatched but no contact. And Himmelsbach was on the Huey. There are more details/names/places if you're interested. Handedness: Although it may be myth, the description of Cooper around the ticket agent has Cooper holding the briefcase in his left hand as he pays for the ticket. (p. 13). This says to me that Cooper might be right handed? Not sure if this is "made-up" detail or real testimony from the agent (They name the ticket agent). The brief case is displayed after a question about need to check-in any baggage. No paper bag mentioned then? So maybe paper bag was a airport purchase as I was wondering? Or maybe this is made-up testimony? Cut up chute: In this book, they say the Pioneer chute was opened and had two lines cut. That's bizarre, since we're told (and shown) that one of the reserves was left behind and had lines cut. Assuming this is just an error. (pp 48-49) Flying Actually East: the book mentions the idea that the plane was actually flying east of where they initially thought. They're referring to a figure that has V23 on it when this statement is made. I wonder if this really refers to being east of the V23 airway...which the flight was, as we know. Interestingly, most of Ckret's comments about the planned early jump near Seattle theory, seem to be just what Himmelsbach says in the Norjak book? Attached is a new picture (from the book) of the bundles recovered by Ingram on the well known table. It's a better b/w top shot than the AP b/w top shot. Gives us a little more detail to add to existing bundle shots. (edit) The McNally hijack is mentioned in the Norjak book. That surprised me. I'll have to see how many of the other parachute jump hijacks are mentioned. It must be in the case file then. So Ckret must have known about it. He played dumb when we first discussed it and Sluggo berated him.

More details about Hahneman. Wife was "blind". Two sons, 17 and 21. He stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months, even years at a time. (Easton PA). Neighbors thought he must have had a diplomatic position. Wife never talked about husband. Neighbor drove her to bank to cash husband's paycheck which came in the mail. William Small, a neighbor said: "One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix. he talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopters" Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position. He was always well dressed" They said he didn't have any friends there, and non one ever knew him. Neighbors always thought he was mysterious. This is all interesting, because there's a number of these hijacks where the guys have families. While Himmelsbach's criminal profile fits for some hijacks, it doesn't fit for others. Some were "average", normal? (edit) No details on any jumping background. Maybe he had none, like McNally? (edit) added this detail above: Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II. Not sure about jumping background. (edit) Obviously an (unlikely) question would be: why is he not Cooper? Ckret: was Hahneman ruled out? Don't have full physical description of him. Age + smoker + the picture above looks interesting for facial + flight crew background?

I have two (more) hijacks with jumps to talk about. There seems to be a lot more than I realized. 1) Frederick W. Hahneman (49) U.S start but Honduras jump. 2) Heady (22) vietnam vet and sport parachutist. I had never heard of Heady before. Heady hijacked and jumped in Reno. (caught right away). Will post later on Heady. First Hahneman. He's interesting because of his age (49) and background (engineer). Hahneman, May 6, 1972, successfully jumped in Honduras, after starting in PA.. Got $303,000. Caught because someone tipped? (unclear). The whole hijack took 21 hours. (edit) 727. kept 48 of 90 passengers as hostages. (edit) Hahneman was American citizen born in Honduras. Puerto Castilla. Honduran mother. Father of German "extraction". Had been trained as a radar operator and flight crew member with US Army Air Corps in World War II. (edit) He also demanded two cartons of Benson & Hedges cigarettes, fuel, bush knives, jump suits and crash helmets. He traded the mostly $100 bills when they landed again after 5 hours, for larger $500 and $1000 bills. DZ was suspected to be near San Pedro Sula, in the jungle about 20 miles from the Caribbean coast. Hahneman was an electronics engineer. 49 years old. 10,000 posters were distributed with composite sketches in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatamela, and British Honduras. A tipster apparently got $25,000 reward, although FBI also said they used testimony from plane witnesses. Hahneman turned himself in to US Embassy official, requesting asylum and return to U.S, after they identified him and his family. Hijacked Eastern Air Lines jet (727). Flight was from Allentown, Pennsylvania to Washington National Airport. He wears glasses. Photo attached. Evidently had a pistol. Landed at Washington D.C. Got money and six parachutes. Returned to Dulles Airport where he asked for the money to be exchanged for bills of larger denomination. Then they had to land at New Orleans because of mechanical problem and he transferred to another jet. Hahneman initially said the money wouldn't be recovered, and he had sent it to "the Bank of Communist China in Hong Kong". But the FBI apparently eventually recovered it from Northern Honduras. Money recovery was reported 5/9/73. ps. Another hijack around the time of Hahneman's capture: two supposed Black Panthers hijacked a plane to Algeria, and got $500,000 in ransom. Holder described himself as a helicoptor pilot. Plane was going from LA to Seattle. Collected money in San Francisco. 727. No jump though.

Hi Jo. What makes people read this thread Jo? I doubt anyone does anyhow. Do people get emotional about this thing? How come? I'm curious about that because I think it gives some insight into the investigation of this case for the last 37 years. Maybe people could chime in with thoughts/opinions? I can imagine there's a separate set of thoughts about outsiders and insiders (skydiving) in this thread, and how it relates to DZ.com. But I figure that's quade's thing. I can understand if the jumpers rally and decide people like me are bad for the site/community. Heck it would be fine for me if there was a banning solely based on community vote... I find everyone's posts interesting. You're right that if there's a way to drum up more data, we should figure it out. But who has the data? Isn't the real problem that we need to figure out what we need to drum out of Ckret, and how to get that? Or is there something else? Is it that we're just trying to find some old timer that's going to read this thread and say ah-hah? Or are there skydiving cultural things we're upsetting here, that really need to be preserved. I could understand that if so. Or do people like me need to be treated a certain way? Or is it simply that posts > # characters should be not allowed. Or is this a jumpers' social thread, and people like me don't belong? Speak freely.

The DSC (german dub) video was produced by a company called "Creative Differences" in LA, for Discovery. Rataczak was on this video. I attached a snap of him. Bill's identified in German around 1:30. Rataczak said Cooper first asked for wheels down and flaps down, and then 'demanded later' that flaps be at 15 degrees. This is at 2:41 in the youtube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Hej7Mxvz0 Ckret has said that Cooper only asked for wheels down and flaps down. The Tosaw account has them going to Cooper for a second question on the flaps, in response to Soderlind's trying to calculate fuel/distance, and getting the 15 degree request. Tosaw evidently interviewed Soderlind..but Soderlind was just on the phone, not on the plane. But Bill was on the plane, and he says there was a 15 degree request, "later". Bill says about Cooper: "he had done some homework and may even have had some flight time but I don't know" In the same youtube, Bill repeats the comment "I think our friend just took leave of us" which I've read elsewhere being attributed to Bill. Here he's saying it in reference to the bump. and putting his fingers on his ears when describing it. This is at 3:50 in the url above I've been musing about the 15 degree flaps, because it's been repeated so long. Ckret tried to tell us Cooper didn't ask for 15 degrees. I think maybe Ckret is talking about the first request which is just flaps down, and doesn't have the info about the 2nd request? Otherwise I can't resolve this. The 15 degree flap request seems real to me. (edit) The PI who involved with Christiansen said he talked to Rataczak, who brought up the 15 degree issue to dismiss the flight attendant: http://www.sherlockinvestigations.com/blog/2008/03/db-coopers-money.html quote I recently talked with Bill Rataczak, the co-pilot of Flight 305, the Boeing 727 that Cooper hijacked. He told me that Cooper insisted that the wing flaps be tilted 15 degrees, to slow the plane down. "He knew that airplane," he said. .. endquote