tdog

Can I use your bag when you are done?

I was going to reply to Chaospilots egotistical "I am a DZO, you guys are customers, you don't have the right to a valid opinion" comment... (Yes, I added my flare to that, mainly because I don't like the stunt because laws were violated and if it went bad I BELIEVE we all would have had bad PR with government officials... But don't argue that point in this thread, there was another one a while back I posted in you can resurrect). I might not be a DZO, but I own a company that has more employees and revenue than probably most DZs.... If it was run like most DZs, we would have been out of business long time ago. I just don't see how riding on the coat tails of a fringe stunt on a fringe movie designed to sell energy drinks is going to drum up enough ROI to make a darn for a DZO. But your reply said it better than I could have. So much so. Good ideas. Imagine... If every DZO was organized by the USPA to have a "Bring a friend tandem day" where every fun jumper was encouraged to bring a friend to do a tandem, and the cost was discounted, and the fun jumper got a reward if the friend stuck around for AFF/Static Line/Tandem Progression... We could market so well for our DZs... But, most DZOs just don't get it.... I was told I could get a free jump if I brought TWO tandems... Value to me: $11 per person, with an average of 1 hour of logistical and marketing time for me, or more! I could make more packing parachutes, teaching the FJC, doing ONE aff jump, etc.... Not surprisingly, no fun jumpers at the DZ went out of their way to bring tandems. This is how I look at everything... "Pick the low hanging fruit. When there is a drought, maybe look higher." The low hanging fruit is your existing customer base. And the people around that can bring business, like hotel concierge and tour operators, who expect part of the pie when they bring you customers, but could send a lot of customers making it worth it. I can give so many examples... Imagine a restaurant that is going out of business. True story. The restaurant could have paid big bucks for an marketing firm to get some PR out there (most news paper stories are not random, they are placed by PR firms doing their jobs)... Or television commercials... No... They went to all the concierge at all the hotels and gave heavy performance based perks to the concierge for making reservations for their customers... All of a sudden - boom - people flow in. If I owned a DZ or wind tunnel - EVERY concierge in the nearest cities would be offered unlimited free tandems and tons of tunnel time, and a bottle of wine or some cash for every appointment they make. I would also go to the visitor's bureau and get the list of conventions and trade shows. I would personally call the destination management firm for each show and offer perks... Here is one. Almost all company business meetings (think an convention floor of 2,000 employees sitting in chairs hearing their CEO talk, and going to seminars, etc) - has a blooper's reel or a week ending slide show... AND - these events are often "bonus" trips to employees, so the meeting planner works hard to make it fun. They struggle to subsidize golf and rafting out of the tight budget. Give them a free alternative instead!!! I would tell the meeting planner: "You bring me a bunch of your employees or customers for paid tandems, I will give you free video normally worth X. I will make a 5 minute video to show at your closing dinner that will include jumping, ground preps, and reactions upon landing. Tell your employees to bring something funny as an inside joke from the workplace. Maybe we can get it in freefall, if it is safe to jump with. Otherwise we will toss it around in the aircraft. I will get the funniest people I can to make the video funny. I need you to get me a few of your most wild, free spirited employees, who will ham it up for the camera so I can make this funny. Tell me who are the ones most likely to ham it up so I dedicate more camera time to them. And, tell these people to really ham it up because the video will be shown at your closing dinner if it is good. You bring me the business. I will bring your company something to remember and take back to the water cooler when everyone gets back on the planes and goes to their home offices." (You see, most of these business meetings bring mid level execs and expect them to 'download' to the folks who stayed home what was missed.) Of course, not every jump is filmed... Only 25%. But you get 100% of the stuff on the ground. I know this works, because white water rafting companies, and other adventure companies have done it, and I am in the business (part time now) of doing corporate events, concerts and meetings. Meeting planners are begging for free-to-them entertainment that is specific to their event to build team work, etc. So how do you get the convention goers from the hotel in the urban downtown environment out of the city? Hiring a van too expensive? Well, give a jump for slots plus instructor fee to the hotel employee who takes time off work to drive the group out. Working with the hotel and convention staff even works for Cessna drop zones in the middle of nowhere. Instead of the concierge at the Hyatt that specializes in convention business, go to the front desk clerk at the motel 6 and super 8. Less rooms - but smaller DZ too.

What was it buried in? Naked? Water and air tight box? I think if it was naked, depending on the parasites and other things in the ground it would be compost by now.... Maybe doing a bit of research into mummies would help?

God, that post is old. I had to refresh my memory. If you see my last line, I asked, "is that accurate of your opinion?" I never said I believed what I wrote. I was just trying to convert math to descriptions. I agree it may be flawed.

I would call the manufacture or find a friend with the same canopy and try it. The manufacture typically has charts for all their containers and specific canopies. Lots of times it is trial and error when outside of the published specs.

I am not a customer (of your tunnel).... However, I like the idea of maybe a few stripes, dots, or something unique... It allows a coach to communicate. "The outside center will face the red dot, that way the tail does not get sucked out the door." "Do 90 turns, from green to red, so we can get the right camera angle for the debrief." Numbers could work as well.

I am willing to bet you did it. Not the packer. You should have worked with a gear expert (like a rigger, manufacture, or heads up person about gear) to identify the CAUSE, not the EFFECT. I can show you a few ways the SKYDIVER can knot a perfectly stowed toggle... Maybe the packer screwed up. Who knows at this point. Sorry to be hard on ya.

Well - the only law says that when you sell something you have to disclose what it is. You can't sell a red car when the car is really green. I could sell you just the used thread from my canopy if I disclosed it as "thread from canopy, removed in 1 foot increments." It is common practice to say on a classified "Red Canopy 210 sqft." If you say that, you need to include the complete system, which includes the links. If you say, "Red canopy, no links", then you are doing the right thing if you keep your links. Expect the used value of the canopy to go down without the links. If your neighbor is selling a complete canopy for $1000, and includes the links - you can't sell yours for $1000 and keep the links. (Of course, the value of the canopy is what someone else is willing to pay for it in the free market economy, I am just suggesting good karma says disclose what you are selling or not selling, and if the other party is willing to pay that price, all is fair.) So, since you comment about being poor and money is a concern... Well, if you sell your canopy without the links, expect to get less money. If you sell it with the links, you will get more money, so you can buy new ones again. In the end, it all almost washes out.

My first post said "solid tab" not "non-metal." A Cypres washer is a good example of a metal solid tab with holes in it to pass line proven not to cut lines taking sharp bends around it. Just move the hole. Problem solved.

I think I am done with this thread, as I have said my thing. This will be my last post unless someone has something other than, "read the manual" as that point has clearly been expressed. Here is my closing observations from productive comments from riggers in the field: In the field, they have observed on main and reserves, the ring style soft links installed improperly or caught themselves doing it. You will notice that they were both experienced riggers. People have commented that improving product designs to eliminate possibility of error, with or without a manual, is a good thing. So conclusion: While it is true that reading the manual solves all the world's problems, my feeling is that product designs can always be made better - and the one of the ways to make them better - is to find user errors in the field and design around them, striving for simplicity. (We are not talking about adding computers to monitor soft links or complicated back up devices to make sure your AAD is on or something, so don't flame me on this one... We are talking about the progress that took us from Capewell to 3 ring, rip cord to throw out, leg to bottom of container, and all the other major and minor changes in the last 30 years). No one yet has proven to me that this user error in the field would be possible with a solid tab instead of a ring... So my question is - if we can eliminate one more reserve ride - one more possibly incorrectly hooked up reserve - by simply changing one thing.... Why not change it? If the manufacture chooses to, more power to them. If not, I still will defend them as having a safe product when the manufactures instructions are followed.

Cool. Fingers work well too.... Protocol says - slinks go with the canopy when sold, as they come with the canopy when new... Risers stay with rig. Just FYI.

Yes, they are reusable. There are a few different creative tools that makes removing them easier, mostly found as medical instruments. Talk to your local rigger for the right tool to "pull the loop over the tab" without damaging them.

True... However, those two systems are easy to inspect. If you can make either system safer, please post the solution here. Or make it and sell it and I will buy it. I posted my solution in my first post to something that I believe has a "user error" possibility that is unnecessary. The solution... A solid tab (like PD brand) or ring so you can't misroute, even with or without the manual. Creativity could make it even better. I have attached two photos. I made my own ring type soft link with cypres cord and a keychain ring - the best materials I have since I don't have a real one here. From these photos, which one is correct, which one is wrong? My point is to say - the system is very hard to inspect as being wrong, even when you know what you are looking for, and I think there is a better way. Out of context, in an enlarged photo, it is easy to see which one is correct. Now put them on a rig with 100 other things to inspect, in a tight fit, in the fold of a riser.... Even the best rigger might overlook it once. My opinion only.

That was my fear. I am glad someone else noticed it and brought it to our attention. I even thought - the fact the reserve sits for months with slack on the lines in the pack tray, the soft link could wiggle loose. I too thought, "well on a tacked reserve it is likely this would not happen." But, I did not think about - until your post, how much harder it would be to inspect on a repack when tacked...

That is your opinion. My opinion is that every component in a system should be analyzed for every possible mode of failure. If an user error failure mode can be eliminated by a simple change - then that change should be made. And - when that failure mode is observed in the field, it should be brought to the attention of the community so more careful attention could be paid to it on future installations, inspections, and design changes.

Look up one post. I posted at the same time you did - that addresses this point.

In a court of law, the plaintiff could use your posts in this thread to show that a recognized expert - as a rigger, that'd be you - found a problem with the links made by Aerodyne. Would you still say you've done the right thing morally and ethically if Aerodyne was the defendant? Yes. I would say I notified the community of users and the manufacture once I found an issue with a product. If I kept my observations secret, I would not be able to sleep at night. My only goal is to protect my friends lives by being the best professional, student and educator I can be. I have no interest in protecting a manufacture. However, in this incident, it is true their product failed because of USER ERROR and not following the manual, not manufacturing defects, so I would testify to that and recommend to the jury to not find fault with the manufacture. Making products better is the evolution of product design, and while this product could be made better in another revision, the existing version is safe if the instructions are followed.

You are right. In this case it was stretched between my sofa and kitchen while others were doing the work. The fact I saw it was not because it was delivered to me in any official capacity... I just happened to see things from a distance while walking around my house and I said: "I would not jump this until it is completely repacked and inspected. I don't have time to do it now otherwise I would do it for free because I am not comfortable with what I am seeing." I think I clearly expressed my opinions and limitations. In a court of law, the other party in the room would testify I expressed my opinions and limitations, and that I did not do a complete inspection, but did say not to jump the rig until an inspection was done because multiple other errors were found. Morally and legally, I believe I did everything I could or should.

This report details how both human factoring and poor product design led to a reserve ride. I came home late at night after getting 2 hours sleep the night before. A friend and someone I never met previously are staying at my place so they can go to the DZ in the morning. The guy I never met had an A licence but was 3 years uncurrent, planning on getting current the next day. While packing he said, "I think I have a step thru". I quickly looked and found three MAJOR rigging errors on how the main was assembled, including twisted lines that would require taking the canopy off the risers, brake lines wrapped around suspension lines that would cause a mal, and brake lines attached to the toggles in the most unique way. The gear was all brand new or new to him. I asked him who assembled the main: "My Rigger Back Home." I asked, "the same rigger that installed your reserve?". "Yes". I explained to him that the errors were exceptionally poor and I would not jump the rig. I even volunteered, "I will repack your reserve for free, and if I find a mistake, you will pay me and get your money back from the guy back home. But I can't do it tonight. I am way too tired." The next morning at the DZ the jumper had two uneventful jumps on the rig "repaired rig". On his third jump he had a reserve ride. One of the Aerodyne Soft Links released and he trailed the complete lineset on opening. Facts: PROBLEM: The softlinks were installed improperly. Instead of proper routing, the loop went thru the "ring" on the Aerodyne brand loop, then over the ring. Going thru the ring first is WRONG. This allowed the soft link to release when not under tension. PROBLEM: I even glanced at one soft link for maybe 3 seconds - and without "pulling them apart a bit", they "looked clean". This glance was not as a formal rigger doing an inspection, just an attempt to see how many things were wrong with the rig. However I looked closely enough I am embarrassed I did not catch it. When the line goes thru the ring, after it is seated, it is just millimeters off of where it should be, and covered with line. Without twisting the ring and looking from multiple angles, it is very deceiving. PROBLEM: The skydiver friend who fixed the continuity had to undo ONE link to clear lines. He copied the installation on the restore, so all four remained installed improperly. Final Comment: The jumper admitted hours after the reserve ride that he did not trust me since I was a new acquaintance, so while I told him I did not trust the rig, I was not creditable. He apologized, and I told him no apology needed. This is my formal incident report regarding the Aerodyne slinks. I know members of PIA and Aerodyne read these forums, so if they need more information, they can contact me. However after this incident I believe: 1. The "ring" on Aerodyne brand slinks ALLOWS improper installation, and that improper installation is not very obvious on inspection. I encourage Aerodyne to choose a solid object, like the tab on PD brand soft links, so this routing error cannot happen. 2. Riggers should be made aware that on Aerodyne soft links, improper routing looks deceivingly like proper routing, and the only way to truly inspect is to loosen the system and take a very close look. Do not be fooled by a quick glance, even if the rig has many jumps on it.

Watch a lot of videos on skydivingmovies.com to get ideas of what is possible. Never go on more than a two way until you (a) know everyone on the jump and (b) have the skills proven at the two-way level. Always orient your body on solos perpendicular to jump run so you don't backslide into another group. (I have twice seen head down and sitfly jumpers join me). Find a lot of new friends. Ask to jump with the friends. Buy snacks/beer/something for your friends. Read Brian Germain's book on canopy control. Download the Brian Germain Skydive Radio interviews at www.skydiveradio.com. Have fun.

I think my Karma is already caught up... But I will be there. PM me with your name and contact info and we can "hook up", but not in that way.

Sarcasim: Take a picture of a white PDR. Call it "White". Take a picture of a blue one. Call it "Blue". Take a picture of a yellow one. Call it "Yellow". Now you have every possible combination of reserves. Just write down the color in the log book. Or, do you take pictures of the nameplate and printed serial number?

Dude, don't discredit line twists under a Navigator or this users experience.... My most scary line twists was under a canopy that was flying straight and level and was docile. Sometimes a diving elliptical can "throw you out" of the twists once you start the process.

You will move a lot, and that is normal. Your instructors and video guy might have moved too, making it look like you moved on the video... FYI... I have seen freefliers who left their belly after their 10 jump and have 1000 sitfly and head down jumps slide all over the sky on their belly as if they never had been on their belly before. Unless your instructors are very concerned and tell you things you need to work on, and suggest you cannot move on to the next level until you "fix something", relax and move on. It takes time and experience... No AFF student (without tunnel time) ever is perfect. Have you ever watched someone learning to ski or snowboard? They are not perfect on their first time either. DON'T WORRY, YOU ARE NORMAL.

Just a thought... You could go the more informal route and apprentice under a good rigger(s)... I appreciated everything I learned by packing under four different riggers... Take the best 25% of each person's best ideas, and you have 100% of good stuff. Not to say I am perfect, in fact I suck sometimes, but I learned a lot and with all the different tools I see myself addressing problems in different ways... In retrospect, I am glad I did not go thru a course, but spent many Tuesday nights learning... Did you know Learjets have drogues? Yes, riggers technically can't pack them since they are part of an airframe, but lots of A&Ps send them out to riggers and sign off on the work. Packed one of those with my "mentor", even though it was not in either of our logbooks as an official pack-job.