Michele

In reading this thread, a thought struck me. How amazing, wonderful and absolutely perfect that Mariann's world was so large, and so filled with love, that the two things she loved - her horses and her skydiving - can share memories, thoughts, condolences, and love on the same page. How complete that seems to me, how perfect and wonderful. Thanks, everyone, for showing me who she was. I never met her, but I feel as if I have now. My heartfelt condolences to all those that lost a mentor, trainer, best friend, and sister...shine on with her memory, glitter for her. And love the way she did - big and hard and 100%. Rest peacefully, Mariann. You made a difference, and you are missed. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

During the summer, the rule here is as few clothes as legally possible...Los Angeles area. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Stepped out to put the outside cats' food and water out, and realized...I had no top. I've been alternatively blushing and laughing about it all day. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

It' so hot in California that I forgot to put a shirt on when I went outside this morning. I came inside really, really fast. I don't think anyone noticed - at least, there were no screeching brakes... I've got to remember to wear clothes outside the house. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Further than that, when someone has been on one particular med (in this case, Haldol and an SSRI) and it's stopped abruptly, there can be horrendous side effects. She was removed from Haldol (really bad move - it was working pretty well!) and her SSRI (Effexor, iirc) was reduced dramatically several days before the children were killed. Thinking happy thoughts don't do much when brain chemistry is out of whack...and when that whack is made volitile by withdrawls and introdocution of psychosis back into the picture, really horrific things can happen...such as we've seen. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

'Cause you have a bigger...erm...package? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

No explanation then from you? No surprise... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Because you didn't show me any? It's a two way street, my friend. Two ways... Nope, didn't make your point, unless you now agree that Andrea has a psychotic illness and the effect of that illness untreated was, sadly, the death of 5 beautiful babies. I stated that earlier in this thread, too... If the case is that you now understand and agree with me, I'll be more than happy to live with it...other than that, we'll just disagree. Deal? Ditto. Although, Richard, your behavior on this and the Saud thread tonight isn't demonstrative of your "kinder, gentler" side, the one which I like. It was like reading my nephew having a fit...just not befitting a grown man. But I'll forgive you, and chalk it up to you being emotional. Hugs for you! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I missed this. I am a female, thus have views that are feminine. Does that make it a feminist viewpoint? If that's not what you meant, please clarify. I am missing your point completely. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

None taken. OJ's trial was what - 8 years ago? I didn't know this place existed 8 years ago, hadn't been skydiving, or anything. So I don't think it could've been prior to conviction. Maybe you're thinking of the civil trial? Do I believe OJ is guilty? You betcha. Is it racist? Not hardly. Sexist? Not hardly. I think, if anything, I am biased towards someone who has a proven record of psychotic breaks should have gotten better treatment, instead of being kicked out of a facility because the insurance ran out. Maybe the bias comes from knowing the fight that chemical imbalance correction is. Maybe it's because I understand brain illnesses like MDD, PPP, PPD. Maybe because I know mental illness is real - very, truly real - and not an excuse for poor behavior or imagination, as some people seem to believe. But I don't think I'm being racist or sexist...I believe I'd be just as vocal about a man who killed his kids who had a history of mental illness similar to Andrea's, provable and demonstrable as hers is...so no, I don't think I have a bias such as you're suggesting. Can I ask what your bias is? Is it gender based? Sexist? Racist? You're so adamant in your beliefs...and I am curious as from where they stem. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Thank you for that, Jaden. I understand your position - I don't agree with it, but that's all right...it's all good. To be honest, I've had mixed/conflicting feelings on this. I do understand where people are coming from; how can I not? I see those delightful and wonderful, innocent children, and think "they didn't deserve any of this - the bus, the isolation, a sick mama...none of this was worthy of these babies." But I also understand mental illnesses, and how they can affect the thinking process. And I think that this case will serve to facilitate other women in getting help with PPP before it becomes another tragedy. That's the best we can hope for, right? I mean...if there can be a somewhat decent "ending" to this story, it's that it can bring a greater understanding of mental illness, and/or the psychotic mind and criminal behavior. We can agree to disagree, all right? And don't think I don't understand...I really do see your side. I just see it from a different perspective. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

you mean you want more slack? All right...here's more rope. Tabloids are not a reliable source of material for me. You might find them so, but I don't. What proof? Only what I've read and learned over the last 5 years. Only what I've seen happen. Only what I've researched and investigated. Only what my education has taught me. Meh. What proof have you that she was not insane? Ciels- Michele Edited instead of a different response... I don't smoke cigars...and I don't want to get into a pissing match with you either. I don't have the right equipment for distance, anyway.... Ignore whatever comments you'd like to, but rest assured I'm not being juvenile...I'm simply opining; if you don't like it, or they have holes in them, hey, debate away. But it's not a pissing match. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You're right - it would've been better spent had she not run out of insurance, been ousted from the hospital, and left on her own; and when that did happen, she should have availed herself of state assistance. Problem is, when someone is out of touch with reality to that extent, they are not capable of taking care of themselves, let alone 5 little children (one an infant...), and let alone again homeschooling them. It's my humble (or not so humble) opinion that Rusty Yates has responsibility here, morally if not legally. But I've been the one watching someone struggle for their mental health, and it's not easy to spot how bad they can get, and how fast. And I know what I'm looking for, too. I wish this story had a good ending. But there isn't one, you know? Just healing for everyone, including Andrea. With a treatable clinical medically controlled illness, I don't see why she falls into the catagory of not worth the effort. I think she is; I also think there are lots out there that are, and are not given the effort. Don't you think that prevention would be worth it? What if she can be studied, and more understanding can be gained to prevent someone else from going down this path? To learn more about the illness so that it can be treated more effectively in the future? More cognitive and behavioural techniques might be gained, thus serving an entire group of people as a result of her treatment and care. That possibility we afford to people like Gacy, Wuornos and Bundy - why can't we afford it to her, as well? Unmedicated, yes. But medicated? With the correct dose and the right combination? She combats them pretty well. That's the interesting point here. With medical intervention, this is preventable...and survivable. Without it, it kills. It's not justifiable in situations like Diane Downs, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier. Not justifiable, nor excusable, or even anything other than evil, sociopathic behaviors. But that's not this case. Andrea Yates has a history of mental illness, and had several psychotic breaks prior to this. The crime, imho, is that the people around her weren't able to assess accurately and remove her from the situation prior to the killing of her children. Save a wee bit of compassion for a very sick woman. Have more compassion for those beautiful babies that were murdered, but put just a sliver aside for Andrea, too... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Didja hurt yourself? Poor rweider. Antagonist? Who, me? For having opinions and stating them? Wow. I suppose I could call you the same. BTW, this isn't about passports and/or world travel. It's about Andrea Yates. Remember? Or are you just spamming? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Whooooooooooaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh. Major thread creep... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Interesting. If I read you correctly, you agree that she was insane, but that doesn't matter because we shouldn't pay for the treatment (assuming you mean w/ taxes)? Just curious if I've read you correctly. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

It's good that you have never experienced - either first hand or someone you love - mental illness. It's good. It's kinda sad, too, because you might have acquired more compassion, but it's good that you don't know. I hope it stays that you never experience mental illness. And I hope God understands your rage and vitriol too. I'm sure He will...but I sure don't. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

She will face God, don't worry on that account. In the mean time, however, her medical condition will be treated, and she will also live with the guilt of killing her children. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yes, you're completely correct; Diane Downs, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier for example. They killed their children, and were not insane. However, none of the above women had a history or mental illness the way Andrea does. Andrea had been treated with some of the strongest psychological pharmaceuticals available, and often didn't respond. Her history included a dr. who recommended that she not bear any additional children, for pete's sake. This woman was insane, and is still not solidly in reality. She deserves treatment and understanding, as far as humanly possible, of the medical situation she finds herself in. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I agree - if you are sane, whatever choices you make you must be responsible for. End of discussion. However...we are dealing with mental illness. A disease that is as real - and as lethal - as cancer. A disease which isn't about responsibility nor choice. It's a disease which strikes the brain, specifically one's ability to think "normally" and which changes reality. It's like living in a Stephen King novel - and it's real. Sometimes, when you are hearing voices, you really do hear them. Sometimes, when you're on medication, you really do need it. Sometimes, when you come off those medications, the lethality of your illness is greater than it was before. Post partum psychosis is real. It's psychotic behavior. Psychotic behavior includes, sometimes, behavior which is not understandable from someone who has not experienced a psychotic break. It really, really sucks that 5 children are dead. It sucks so fucking much that the insurance "ran out" and that her husband didn't understand - or pay attention to - the illness which affected his wife and threatened the children. It sucks so fucking much that Andrea had an illness which allowed a different reality to prevail...5 children are dead. Killed in a horrific manner, and in a way I would wish on not one person. And Andrea was - and remains - a critically ill woman. Thank God a jury had enough sense to understand that mental illness is real. Thank God a jury found her NGRI...and that she will spend either the rest of her life or at least most of it in a fine mental facility such as Rusk in east Texas. Thank God...this tragedy could've been avoided - with proper medical care and understanding of the illness from her husband and friends...and a little commitment from them to Andrea. And it just sucks. There is no happy ending here...none at all. But it's the best ending possible given the circumstances, and for that, I say again "Thank God!". Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

She's lucid now (and I'd disagree somewhat on "lucid", however), but that's because she's had years of medical intervention behind her. How she looks and behaves now does not have any bearing on what was happening to her at the time of the crimes 5 years ago. Those poor children. I am so sorry they died, and were murdered at the hands of their mother. But she was a very, very, sick woman and not responsible for her actions. I can have sympathy for both mother and children...and I do. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

100 years ago, mental illness was thought to have been caused by evil spirits, too, and it was often the case that someone had a family member chained to the basement floor. Sigh. I am very, very proud of the Tx jury. They worked hard, came to the correct decision, and Andrea will be in a mental facility for the rest of her life. Huge win for mental health, no doubt or question. Huge, huge win. Thank God. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

That's a concern, indeed, but still, even if the pup couldn't go all the way, I'd have a friend and companion for life. The issue with Newfie rescue, though, is that they get so big, and can be so rowdy as babies that they go to the rescue because some family didn't quite know what to do with them. From what I've heard/read (and granted, I haven't done much of that), some rescue newfs do have what it takes to go all the way - but they were family terrors because the family wanted a big, docile, sweet doggie...and didn't know how to train (or didn't have the time required to train) a 160+ lb dog (which was a destructive 40 pound pup...) Dunno the answer, but I'm willing to research and, once educated, am willing to take the chance. Your malinut (malinois, but they are referenced as 'nuts'...LOL!) is a breed I have considered, but am not sure about. They are damned cute, though...damned cute! Thanks for the caution, though. Appreciate it! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Bill, I was wondering. How does one tell who is Hesbollah and who isn't? Do they have identifiable uniforms? Or are they just like regular civilians, in civilian clothing but with a really big gun hanging 'round their neck? Serious question, honest question... And Trent, thanks for finding those shots. I appreciate it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

You are so sweet for such a long, informative post, thank you so much. And to all those who've pm'ed me, thank you too. Lots of great information and guidance, sources and links. Rock on, y'all. BTW, the only time I've ever lept before I looked was in skydiving...that first jump, I couldn't look out the plane. I could only go. So I went. ALW. In answer to your questions, I have considered all the ramifications of a SAR dog, the loss that a dog creates when your partner dies...all the drawbacks (time, space, energy, and emotion...). Like I said, I'm not in a place where I can move into this, so doing homework and making the correct assessment of me, my abilities, my talents, and my expectations are important. And that's what I'm doing. I know it's not glamorous. The good news is that I am not glamorous, either. LOL. I have volunteered on a few Search events, and sadly those people were not found. I've had the blessed opportunities to watch dogs work, and to see the incredible bond and trust between the dog and their handler...and yes, when you say you're trusting lives to the dog, you're right. Not simply mine, but the lost person, and all the others on the search as well. Newfies are my favorite dog - and so are golden retrievers. Both dogs have limits, and physical issues to be dealt with (i.e. dysplasia, bloat, et cetera) that aren't easy to overcome, but I'm going to take my time, when it's time, in selecting the right pup. Since I'm not showing, I'm not worried about pedigree and breed conformation...rather, personality and behavior is what I am curious about. And I also know that it's a lifetime commitment; if the dog doesn't work out in training, though, I've still got a wonderful dog...and as an animal lover, I can't imagine my life without canine and feline companions. So it's all good - a dog able to do SAR is icing, you know? I'm willing to make the commitment to do the research (starting here - this place is a great resource!!), and from the resource make my determination when the time is right. It will be a while before I have a yard, so there's no need to jump in tomorrow. But it's time to start investigating it thoroughly... Thanks for all the pms and help and honest responses...I do appreciate them. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~