Kennedy

Actually, the "in spite of Clinton" argument makes a good deal of sense when you look past the surface. These items are now guaranteed collectors items. We know exactly how many of them are out there, that no more will be made, and that some people place very high monetary values on them. Pretty solid investment as far as I can see. It's also why corporations are generally easier to add to the BATF list of "allowed" purchasers for full auto firearms. Their reason is not "recreation" or anything like that. It is "investment." (I can picture the wheels spinning in quade's mind as he reads this one ) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Everyone here who has read a gun thread has been told about Lott's study, and his book More Guns, Less Crime. They don't want to hear it. But please feel free to join in, I'm tired of repeating myself anyway. Quade is one of the most logical and understandable posters I've seen, green status aside. But when it comes to guns, I just don't know. Besides, we all know correlation doesn't mean a damned thing. There is a correlation between the number of storks and the number of babies in an area, but do we think the babies are there because of the storks? No, because we understand that although they are there at the same time, there is NO MEANINGFUL RELATIONSHIP, other than they both occur more frequently around cities. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Neither incapable nor unwilling, simply boss fearing. It was the SKS Sporter. It happened in California in the late nineties. 1997 through 1999, I believe. I'll post/edit in links when I have them. (edit) Here's an interesting one. letter from a CA citizen I'm sure you'll find many more informative ones. Google comes up with about a thousand useful links. (/edit) witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I can't site the entire story for you, but how about this little overview: Some California citizens own a certain type of rifle, which is legal and treated as any other firearm. At some point, California's government decides to pass a law requiring owners of previously legal rifles to register them, with a promise never to confiscate them or otherwise interfere. A small while later, they pass legislation requiring owners to turn the rifles in, and making anyone who doesn't an instant felon. Well, there's that, plus the whole Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Red China comparison. Hence the belief, concern, fear, "paranoid assumption" that registration will lead to confiscation. There are also dozens of quotes by leading politicians stating that the ultimate goal of gun control is zero civilian ownership. I believe it was Sen. Dianne Feinstein on 60 Minutes who said "if I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done it." Guess which state Feistein comes from. I never said the ultimate goal of registration if confiscation. I said the ultimate goal of gun control is confisctaion. Regulation is something they would completely skip if they could. But since they can't get all the way in one step, they'll do it in increments. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

OK, so you're cool with an ignorant fool driving around his private property with no license, even though he is completely capable of killing anyone he comes across with his vehicle, as long as he stays off public land, right? So why does the same logic not apply to firearms and any other object? It seems to me you would be fine with someone owning a gun as long as they keep it on their own land. Or do you believe there is some difference in the likelihood of someone dying in front of a gun rather than an automobile on private land? Why does the same not apply to car owners in your book? You telling me that driving (and a thousand other activities) would not make it fairly easy to instantly and fatally injure someone? ::rephrase:: The ownership of a parachute presumes that at some point you'll use it. It would be fairly easy to instantly and fatally injure others. To me it does not seem unreasonable to therefore educate and license those individuals wishing to participate in this activities. ::rephrase:: So how does your logic sound when applied to jumpers? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I don't understand it either, but ask California, New York, DC governing bodies about it. They might know a thing or two. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Tell that to ranchers, outfitters, farmers, and the like out in west this side of the Rockies. They're the only significant predator with no management system whatsoever in place. And I believe the question involved deer and another animal as well. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

No, the topics are loaded, the questions seemed pretty straight forward to me. Do you have a better way to phrase the quesitons that would unload them? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Yet, this is exactly what people try to argue to prove that Concealed Carry laws deter crime. I guess we're either both right or both wrong, depending on how you look at it and which side you're on. Unless, you actually look at the facts. Then I'm right and you're wrong. Couldn't decide on the best place to reply and drop this in, but here looks good. Unless you have a more sound and indepth approach to the topic than John Lott had in More Guns, Less Crime, I have to wonder what facts you are referring to. The man looked at every county in every state in the country. He checked their crime rates relative to passage of local concealed carry and right to carry legislation. Guess what? Regardless of timeframe [which means regardless of federal law changes] crime rates dropped after passage in just about every spot, and stayed consistently lower than counties without CCW and RTC. You have "facts" better than that, quade? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Oh, it hurt like hell, don't get me wrong. My face broke into the worst rash I've had since poison oak. My throat hurt to swallow for days. etc etc etc. But last time I got hit with pepper I kept going. I'm sure it was low grade stuff [no brand commercial] but it didn't put me down. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

It's the same idea as drown-proofing water born operators. There is a possibility a cop will get sprayed while patroling, whether by his own can from a fighter, or another officers in a struggle. The idea is you know what it does, so you respect it and can expect what happens if it hits you again. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Pepper spray hurts the first time, but it's really not that bad. You want to make a man cry hit him with tear gas or mace. [pepper spray just clears my sinusses now] Yes, water is not your friend in this case. Just like food you can't handle, water just makes it worse. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

[sarcasm] But the prosecutor is just doing their job, and everyone is getting their day in court. Isn't that what's important? That everbody gets their day, and that twelve idiots, I mean peers, decide? [/sarcasm] witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I would write a reply here, but you answered yourself. If it were actually policy, it could be challenged and easily reversed. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Tell that to the government and bureaucracy that backed him up 100%. They decided he was being disruptive. (even though no students in the room thought so) I also recall accounts of administrators refusing school access to a Christian group, even while allowing non-religious groups to use school facilities. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Riddle me this: how can one man say twelve people will always come to the best decision in one thread, and then knock the system where twelve people decide guilt or non-guilt? (I've never seen an innocent person anywhere in a courthouse) ps - I'm referring to you in the S.659 thread and here. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

[southern drawl] Boy, just you remember, I've got four acres, a shotgun, a shovel, and a daughter I love very much. [/drawl] witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Actually, Aggie is only partially correct. With a license you can purchase shotgun with as short as a ten inch barrel. Requires ATF approval IIRC. Same as full auto firearms. They are obtainable, if you're willing to put up with it. My internship supervisor was one such person. I was talking to him about a side by side for the home, and he mentioned having an leftoverpump action, ten inch barrel, pistol gripped twelve gauge. You could carry the thing through a door jam sideways with plenty of clearance. Had ghost ring sights and screw in chokes, as well. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Actually, Robin Hood was fighting against government, so I doubt Bush wants that. To your ridiculous and mundane "they were innocent," I offer a ridiculous and mundane answer: Proove that one of them was innocent. I am so tired of that conversation. Look at Mumia. The man is guilty as sin. Even more obvious than OJ, and still "oh, he's innocent, how horrible..." witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Good luck convincing administrators across the country of that little fact. A friend was suspended and threatened with expulsion because he would not stop discussing the bible in study hall with another student who was interested in learning and was asking questions. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

I don't want mandatory prayer in schools. But I don't want to be threatened with expulsion when I mention praying with friends during a study hall. I'd have loved to attend a private school. And if I didn't already have to pay for public, I would have. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

People come to different conclusions. Rigidity is not wrong in and of itself. I have come to the conclusion that a social approach will not work. That is a political decision. Don't think socialism is apart from the political spectrum. It falls squarely to the left. The solution is inseparable from the political theory. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

You are correct. Of course there is variation. But the very fact that schools vary so widely is another sign that socialism does not work as planned here in the US. If it did, education would be equal regardless of district. I didn't think anyone remember the stated purpose for interstates (military movement). But honestly Bill, does the DC beltway help troop movements? No, it is a means of transportation of people by POV. I-80 fits the bill. I-495 does not. My dollars fund both. What really peeves me about the Interstate system is the gigantic expansion of eminent domain. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Your definition is correct, if simple. Collective efforts are what constitutes a community in my mind. The problem with socialism on a grand scale is that there is no community. Bureaucracy and layers prevent effective application. Also, personal choice must suffer to enforce equal distribution. I am against collective ownership. There is a line we must each draw. That is the line where we find giving up liberty for security is acceptable. My line is drawn and firm. Others draw theirs near mine or far from mine in each direction. The "fear" surrounding socialism is a hydra. It was the system of America's enemy in the cold war, the Soviets. It is a system that fails miserably when applied in the past here at home. It goes against the picture Americans hold for their culture. Look at American mythic figures. Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, George Washington, Nathan Hale, John Paul Jones. These men did not need paper pushers and change jinglers to accomplish their tasks. They held responsibility and acted and encouraged men around them. There's more, but I'm not going to write a dissertation on the subject. It's been done. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*

Without public funding schools would operate just fine; as private ventures where parents would be able interact and communicate with instructors and administrators. Do you know how much we pay for a good complete education? Thanks to taxes and higher ed prices, we spend more in a lifetime than if our kids attended private schools kindergarten through college. I'd take that route, but I still have to fund public schools, so I can't afford it. That seems to work fine for the rest of the world. Care to guess what percentage of the world's doctors have been educated in the US of A? Or what percentage of a given medical programs graduates will leave the US for other countries? The US has more than enough applicants to fill every med school in the country. The problem is how they are administered. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1*